What made you lose faith in humanity today?

[kurczak]

Darling, mentioning you was necessary to explain the context to Rams. Please stop being a Fascist who tells me whom I can or cannot mention and when.

 

[Lord Brutus]

Oh, the irony.

 

[Nega-Brutus]

I think you nail the discrepancy in our understandings of what racism even means, which leaves everyone confused.

Calling out the absolute toxic culture in these communities, and other people enabling it is absolutely worthy of mention and attention. And I will reluctantly agree that this should be discussed. Although I don't know how the media can do it without making it worse because they're idiots. This is why I like publicly funded TV like the BBC, because it has no profit incentive and is able to bring on representatives from different slices of life and make them all seem like rational people. I'm not joking. I've heard people come on and have a rational discussion and disagreement about the lockdowns on our public channel. It made me sympathise with both parties.

Sorry I can't offer you more than these thoughts.

 

[eddiemccandless]

Rams: The whole Black sheriff thing was what Brutus actually claimed about a year ago. That there is no reason for people to protest in his home state and county. That they have Black cops and sheriffs there, so whatever problem there was with Chauvin and Floyd, was a local Minneapolis problem and the protests should be confined to there.

This is massively symptomatic. There are droves of whites who are mentally stuck in the 80s or somesuch who abhor racism because they think racism means Kunta getting flogged in The Roots and angry white Alabamans setting buses on fire. The concept of racism has meanwhile shifted, or rather expanded, light years without them even noticing. The behavior they consider fine and practice regularly is actually seen as wildly racist by the "anti-racist" tone-setting vanguard, but still those whites are nodding along because they think they are on the same page with BLM or Ibrahim Kendi etc. But "racism" is now so firmly established as the supreme, all-defining evil that it has become a magical bullet and most whites will agree to almost anything, all you have to do is say the magic word.

At least, that brings me to Eddie, is how it's here in NYC. Maybe it's different in the Dakotas or rural Arkansas. I don't have any tale of woe. Nobody's done anything to me. I live in a very diverse neighborhood, I'm about the only white (not really, but there's very few of us), mostly Blacks, mostly homegrown, but also Caribbean, some Hispanics, some Haredim and yes the commuting Asians who run the stores here, but live elsewhere. I'm also married to a part Japanese, part WASP, so I have some insight on specifically the Asian-Black relations from there too. One big lesson from living in that neighborhood and NY general was exactly that exactly that every group is "racist", in that it has in-group preferences. And everybody except whites openly brags about it. Whites here regularly drop racially self-deprecating comments and remarks into conversations for no reason, just to signal in advance that they are not racist. I've heard on numerous ocassions people saying stuff like Whites should have fewer babies, that they have no culture, that they should never ask Black people about Black culture or history, because that means the White is appropriating the Black's time and effort. You are supposed to educate yourself by googling, you're not even allowed to ask for literature. It's racist. That whites have a moral obligation to not call the police when they are criminally (including violently) victimized by blacks, so as not to put them at risk of being mistreated by cops. That Whites should not hang out with Black people, because it's invasion of Black spaces. And everybody nodded like those were the most obvious things. They were not outliers, I hear **** like that all the time. I went to th BLM protests last year, to see for myself. People were completely unironically and in plain words calling for killing cops.And for abolishing the police. Yes unambiguously abolishing, not just defunding a little and redirecting the funds to social work as the media tried to spin it.

NY is of course not the enitre America, but the angles and talking points of 90% of national media are closer to the NY ones than the Bum****, Wyoming ones.

That seems pretty dumb, and I rarely say that (not you, the people you are talking about). I do suspect that you are living in a unique situation. I have lived in Phoenix, Houston, Dallas, Austin, the Salt Lake City area, and spent some time in Philadelphia and Rochester MN. I have never experienced any of what you mention. I have admittedly never been to NYC (although I would like to at some point, just to be able to see it).

The bit about mixing with Black people is particularly disconcerting. Like.... that's kind of the main thing that we need to do. It's difficult to be racist towards a minority if you have good friends who belong to that group (at least, more difficult). I do not doubt that there's non white people who engage in racial discrimination, and I actually think that you nail it when you say that racism has changed the way it operates. It's not really about saying the n word or other slurs. That still happens, but that's easy to fight. Now it is done in a more subtle way that makes it more difficult to label, although the substance is pretty much the same.

Practical example: the proud boys. Their leader is currently Hispanic. These are people that in the past were part of other groups and would walk around wearing t-shirt saying "Hitler did nothing wrong". Now they say "Pinochet did nothing wrong" instead. It's not racist if it's a South American fascist dictator instead of Hitler right? They are however the same kind of people. And in that vein, it's not like hispanics are all angels. People are people. A lot of extreme right wing behavior has been in South America in the past and probably still is (often supported by the US...).

Now with that said, there is a systematic bias that favors Whites in the US. That can simply not be denied based on data (wages, number of homeowners, even how people have been effected by the pandemic). That doesn't mean that all whites are rich or even doing well, it does not mean that all whites are racists, it doesn't even mean that the majority of us are or that we need to constantly show contrition over things that, really, as individuals we have little control over. It does mean that we need to figure out how to address it as a general community though.

I am also curious to know what national media you are referring to. CNN and MSNBC? I am not a huge fan of those myself. I am pretty sure that if the roles were reversed and the misinformation/neonazi craze was with the Democratic party they would do exactly what Fox News is doing. On a somewhat related note, as much as I try getting news from sources with a mix of political bias, I have a really hard time thinking of any US conservative news outlet that does not push falsities.

And Brutus... Come on man. That's not helping.

Also, sorry @BenKenobi, I guess we highjacked your post a little bit I tend to agree that the physical violence should have punished more harshly, although I do think that the racial slurs need to also be punished pretty severely. Those people are, for reasons that I will never understand, considered role models by many. In both cases they really should not have done that.

 

[Lord Brutus]

I don't see Charlotte on the list of places where you have lived so you can't know our situation here, nor can Kurczech. I leaving again.

 

[eddiemccandless]

Sure, I don't think anyone exists that has lived in every single place in the US ? all we can do is consider the average situation across the country based on data and push for policies based on that. But what I meant with that is, calling people dumbasses doesn't help... We are talking, isn't that a good thing? The way I see it the worst that can happen is that no one will change their mind, best case me and @kurczak might end up learning something new from each other, even if we probably will still disagree on a lot of things.

 

[Mad Vader]

I am not worked up by the 10 match ban. I am worked up by the 3 match ban for physical assault. This is a value trouble (subjective, I give you that, but that is why I write it on a forum) - in plain English: this is simply wrong. And I don't think any amount of "it's a policy" or "sport is sport" is going to change that.

The assault got a 5 match ban lowered to 3 on appeal (i.e. they downgraded "serious assault" to "assault" - the ban lengths are the defaults). Since there were plenty of witnesses including UEFA officials, I assume it was judged fairly.
Obviously there are all kinds of assaults and a suitable range of punishments (3 or 5 or custom length ban).
Why do you exactly object to the severity of the sentence? Do you have special information about the assault provided by the unbiased Czech media?
I've read the special information about the racist remarks provided by the unbiased Scottish media and they are hysterical, calling for a much harsher punishment than a 10 match ban.

Edit: I agree that punishment for getting someone into a hospital should not be the half of saying "monkey" to a black person, as it is now by UEFA rules. But, again, UEFA is campaigning to root out racism from their highly visible ECL and EL games, and this is how you do it. Maybe once racism is vanquished the punishment for racism would be reduced to the liking of white fans.

Spoiler: Nice fans you have there

@kurczak I really prefer the nuanced you and agree with some of your concerns. But if you don't put the effort to explain what's your real problem, it really looks like you are a white supremacy apologist. Which deep down you still might be.

 

[Poddicus]

Rams: The whole Black sheriff thing was what Brutus actually claimed about a year ago. That there is no reason for people to protest in his home state and county. That they have Black cops and sheriffs there, so whatever problem there was with Chauvin and Floyd, was a local Minneapolis problem and the protests should be confined to there.

This is massively symptomatic. There are droves of whites who are mentally stuck in the 80s or somesuch who abhor racism because they think racism means Kunta getting flogged in The Roots and angry white Alabamans setting buses on fire. The concept of racism has meanwhile shifted, or rather expanded, light years without them even noticing. The behavior they consider fine and practice regularly is actually seen as wildly racist by the "anti-racist" tone-setting vanguard, but still those whites are nodding along because they think they are on the same page with BLM or Ibrahim Kendi etc. But "racism" is now so firmly established as the supreme, all-defining evil that it has become a magical bullet and most whites will agree to almost anything, all you have to do is say the magic word.

At least, that brings me to Eddie, is how it's here in NYC. Maybe it's different in the Dakotas or rural Arkansas. I don't have any tale of woe. Nobody's done anything to me. I live in a very diverse neighborhood, I'm about the only white (not really, but there's very few of us), mostly Blacks, mostly homegrown, but also Caribbean, some Hispanics, some Haredim and yes the commuting Asians who run the stores here, but live elsewhere. I'm also married to a part Japanese, part WASP, so I have some insight on specifically the Asian-Black relations from there too. One big lesson from living in that neighborhood and NY general was exactly that exactly that every group is "racist", in that it has in-group preferences. And everybody except whites openly brags about it. Whites here regularly drop racially self-deprecating comments and remarks into conversations for no reason, just to signal in advance that they are not racist. I've heard on numerous ocassions people saying stuff like Whites should have fewer babies, that they have no culture, that they should never ask Black people about Black culture or history, because that means the White is appropriating the Black's time and effort. You are supposed to educate yourself by googling, you're not even allowed to ask for literature. It's racist. That whites have a moral obligation to not call the police when they are criminally (including violently) victimized by blacks, so as not to put them at risk of being mistreated by cops. That Whites should not hang out with Black people, because it's invasion of Black spaces. And everybody nodded like those were the most obvious things. They were not outliers, I hear **** like that all the time. I went to th BLM protests last year, to see for myself. People were completely unironically and in plain words calling for killing cops.And for abolishing the police. Yes unambiguously abolishing, not just defunding a little and redirecting the funds to social work as the media tried to spin it.

NY is of course not the enitre America, but the angles and talking points of 90% of national media are closer to the NY ones than the Bum****, Wyoming ones.

You're my favourite Chicken

 

[Adorno]

I doubt anyone is saying that except your Tucker Carlsons in an effort to mainstream white supremacy ideas.

I don't think you read any of those, you are just being anti-anti-racist for the sake of owning the libs.

First you doubt her, then she post links, and you doubt she has read them, still dismissing it.
That's understandable if it was a few random SoMe posts.
But Vox reaches many million readers each month, Yahoo News is ranked sixth among global news sites (in 2019), and CNN is one of the biggest.
I don't see what she failed to explain.

Analysis: White supremacy and hate are haunting Asian Americans

In one sense, it's immaterial whether the accused killer in the Atlanta spa shootings admits to a racist motivation. Asian Americans, already traumatized by a rising tide of hate, violence and rhetoric, have been living in fear for months.

edition.cnn.com

"While the focus is on anti-Asian hate, it all stems from White supremacy and anyone can be a scapegoat at any moment," Tsou said.

The history of tensions — and solidarity — between Black and Asian American communities, explained

After a recent surge in anti-Asian attacks, the narrative quickly turned to Asian-Black hostility. But it’s much more complicated than that.

www.vox.com

Ultimately, there is a failure to remember what got America to this place of racial hierarchies and lingering Black-Asian tensions: white supremacy

The fact is that Black Americans are native-born Americans, and, like all native-born people, they are susceptible to xenophobic and nationalistic sentiments that can place blame on an “other” — in this case, Asian Americans, who can be seen as “forever foreigners” even if they, too, are native-born.

White supremacy is the root of all race-related violence in the US

As fears of anti-Asian violence grow, police seek to be more visible to deter attacks. AP Photo/Kathy WillensAmid the disturbing rise in attacks on Asian Americans since March 2020 is a troubling category of these assaults: Black people are also attacking Asian Americans. White people are the...

news.yahoo.com

anti-Asian racism has the same source as anti-Black racism: white supremacy. So when a Black person attacks an Asian person, the encounter is fueled perhaps by racism, but very specifically by white supremacy. White supremacy does not require a white person to perpetuate it.

 

[Mad Vader]

First you doubt her, then she post links, and you doubt she has read them, still dismissing it.
That's understandable if it was a few random SoMe posts.
But Vox reaches many million readers each month, Yahoo News is ranked sixth among global news sites (in 2019), and CNN is one of the biggest.
I don't see what she failed to explain.

Yes, she got me there. Do I need to admit it? But the stories she posted were much more nuanced about the connection between white racism and racism between non-whites.
I also don't agree (just as she doesn't) that the historic role of white racism in setting up a hierarchy of races in the US, is still a relevant cause today. So she does have a point there - there's no sense in attacking contemporary white supremacists for black-on-Asian crimes.
I hope that helps, sir white knight.

 

[Adorno]

In New York City, where anti-Asian hate crime soared nearly nine-fold in 2020 over the year before, only two of the 20 people arrested last year in connection with these attacks were white [...] Eleven were African Americans, six were white Hispanics and one was a Black Hispanic.
While historically whites have been responsible for most hate crimes reported to the FBI, the arrest data from New York shines a light on a sensitive topic in the Asian American community — that attacks on Asians are often carried out by people of color.

Most police departments do not publish this kind of data, but anecdotal evidence suggests the pattern seen in New York has emerged in other cities, as well.

Progressives oppose tougher police action over concern it could lead to a disproportionately high number of African American and Latino arrests without putting a stop to the hate.

Anti-Asian Hate Crime Crosses Racial and Ethnic Lines

In New York, only two of the 20 people arrested last year in connection with anti-Asian attacks were white

www.voanews.com

Sounds like crimes against Asians by African Americans, in general, are simply not reported as hate crimes (and they're probably not).
But pragmatically the biggest violent threat to Asians in general are African Americans. Yet paradoxically focus is being shifted towards white perpetrators.

I found an old study (from 2009) on violent crimes showing Asians are the least vitcimized group of all in the US.

Asians were less vulnerable than non-Asians for nearly all types of nonfatal violent crime. For simple assault, the rate among Asians was less than half that for non-Asians. There was no statistically significant difference between Asians and non-Asians in their rates of robbery.

https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/anhpivc.pdf

Maybe focus should be where the problems are biggest, while obviously not ignoring shifting trends (rise in hate crimes).
But seeing all crimes against Asians as white supremacy dogma is conveniently keeping the blame on white Americans.

 

[Nega-Brutus]

It's not a matter of blame. Even if you identify that black people are "at blame" the question is how do you sustainably prevent it. The shift then suddenly goes to law makers and the holders of the resources in society, ie "white people". Not that I agree with the toxic culture or the label white people in the first place.

 

[Mad Vader]

You are assuming that lawmakers can change cultural norms like racial prejudice. More informal programs tackling racism would do more.
I'm with the right-wingers on this one, the problem communities should accept the major share of responsibility for the actions of their members and strive to change from within. If you develop a culture of unaccountability, i.e. "blame the white racists for everything", you'll see no change and a lot of excuses.

 

[Nega-Brutus]

I'm all for personal responsibility and accountability when they work in preventing problems. When they don't work, we set up institutions to mitigate problems, ie by lawmakers & such. That doesn't mean that we can't do both, ie be more personally and culturally outspoken as well as utilise the social and institutional mechanisms.

Law makers change norms over time all the time. It just takes a while for us to notice.

 

[Adorno]

How product placements may soon be added to classic films

Getting consumer goods in shot is big business for movies and TV series, and items can now be added digitally.

www.bbc.com

 

[Mad Vader]

It seems to me this is severely limited to contemporary movies - very few products that are marketed today are of "classic" vintage, like Coke.
You can't have Bogart in Casablanca say "Let's play Raid Shadow Legends again, Sam".
The only upside to this is that it will troll classics fans like @BenKenobi, but only briefly.

 

[Adorno]

Ex-Convict Anna Sorokin to Film Reality Series ‘Delvey’s Dinner Club’ During House Arrest

“Inventing Anna” was just the start. Anna “Delvey” Sorokin has landed her own unscripted series, “Delvey’s Dinner Club,” set to be filming inside her New York City Eas…

variety.com

“There, a Delvey-invited group of actors, musicians, founders, socialites, journalists and other esteemed guests will join her each week around a private-chef catered table replete with candid conversations where no topic is off-limits – including Anna’s experience within the criminal justice system, her strategy to rebuild her image and her plans for the future.”

Her "future" being more fraud and con artistry, no doubt.

 

[kurczak]

She can be a "legitimate" socialite, influencer, lifestyle guru or whatever. She'll be dropping an activewear, podcast and a colorful coobook line in no time.

 

[Antonis]

Hmmmm
Getting some low-key Gwyneth Paltrow vibes, from her.

 

[Mad Vader]

Her "future" being more fraud and con artistry, no doubt.

You don't have to do the dirty work if you are making legit money from teaching others how to fake it.