What is up with the Crappy Loot and Equipment available for sale to way later in the game.

[Midnitewolf]

I have performed about 4-5 starts just testing out various factions troops and such and one thing that really irks me is that the game seems to limit what types of equipment is available based on some sort of progression system. For example, just to test this I started a new campaign and decided to see what chest armor was available from every city and I think early on the best chest piece was like 14 chest armor. There was not one high level 30+ armor chest piece anywhere. Same with Helmets and as far as I can tell weapons to. Hell I have a level 19 who after hours of looking, finally managed to find one chest piece above 30 armor.

I am not sure what is going on here but as I said there seems to be some sort of progression system that prevents the better armor and equipment from showing up to way late in the game and I am not sure why it even exists. I mean if I want to save up all my money and kill 500 looting bands, why can't I buy 64K Imperial Lamellar Armor with 34 chest protection at level 5? I mean it is a single player game after all so you can't claim this feature is in for balance reasons.

Also, the lack of this high level equipment showing up for sale early sucks because you aren't able to see what you might want to work toward. If I see that a cool looking armor sells for 100k the second I go to the trade window, I can be excited about working toward getting an extra 100k to buy it but it is isn't showing up early, how do I know I even want to work toward it?

Anyway, hopefully they change this or at least there is a mod that changes this.

 

[pada]

I do not like that equipment in stores seems to be tied to player level. for a realistic medieval sim, this seems completely wonky as a design choice.

 

[Midnitewolf]

I do not like that equipment in stores seems to be tied to player level. for a realistic medieval sim, this seems completely wonky as a design choice.

It isn't tied to level because I have a level 19 that doesn't have the same access to equipment that another level 17 of mine has. Honestly I think it is tied to game time because the level 17 I have is way further along in the game. (my level 19 is modded to get XP faster). Either way, I absolutely HATE this mechanic. My level 17 has like 200k and can't buy anything with more chest armor than 24, what the hell!?!?!

I just spend like an hour looking for a mod that fixes/changes this but it doesn't look like anyone has addressed this yet so guess I am just stuck....blah.

 

[Dragoony]

Hmm I don't think I had this problem...or maybe I did but I simply interpreted it as they just added more armour into the game, it makes sense why you wouldn't be able to obtain it but if you're literally not seeing it that would be weird

 

[Sneakydude]

It isn't tied to level because I have a level 19 that doesn't have the same access to equipment that another level 17 of mine has. Honestly I think it is tied to game time because the level 17 I have is way further along in the game. (my level 19 is modded to get XP faster). Either way, I absolutely HATE this mechanic. My level 17 has like 200k and can't buy anything with more chest armor than 24, what the hell!?!?!

I just spend like an hour looking for a mod that fixes/changes this but it doesn't look like anyone has addressed this yet so guess I am just stuck....blah.

I too have that on my one saved account. Once in awhile i get a 32k special item drop, but all of my companions are fully decked out, and if one lips off i make them nekkid and take back the gear. But the lower teir items do keep the loot list difficult to navigate through. It adds up if you loot all and keep cashing in. I am over 350k now on that one saved game.

 

[Deathwish16]

Basically all of the weapons are made by the games economic system. Those weapons were actually forged from raw materials and sold to the market by one of the world's blacksmith workshops and *traded with other towns (I'm not 100% sure of this because I haven't seen weapons traded in game). You cannot scale with the player because the town actually consumes those weapons, armor, ect. To increase their militia and level their garrison. There may be other economic implications too because I don't know what other mechanics the town consumption model ties into. If you look into the modable code you can see this is based on weapon and armor tier and their production rates are also specified.

 

[Sneakydude]

Basically all of the weapons are made by the games economic system. Those weapons were actually forged from raw materials and sold to the market by one of the world's blacksmith workshops and *traded with other towns (I'm not 100% sure of this because I haven't seen weapons traded in game). You cannot scale with the player because the town actually consumes those weapons, armor, ect. To increase their militia and level their garrison. There may be other economic implications too because I don't know what other mechanics the town consumption model ties into. If you look into the modable code you can see this is based on weapon and armor tier and their production rates are also specified.

Oh, ya i havent even looked at the code yet, not sure i will bother. But it is very interesting you found out this to be interesting to look at yourself. Modding side or simply you found the raw system to be broken in some way? am i wrong.

 

[Midnitewolf]

Hmm I don't think I had this problem...or maybe I did but I simply interpreted it as they just added more armour into the game, it makes sense why you wouldn't be able to obtain it but if you're literally not seeing it that would be weird

Yeah I am just not seeing it. I didn't really notice it on my first couple of starts but now that I know what to do to level (get a mod to fix the borked XP gain) and earn money fast (Get a Caravan with your first 15k) I find myself with plenty of gold but nothing whatsoever to buy with it. In my current play through, I couldn't find anything better than starter armor which had 24 chest protection, though the first 15+ hours into the game.

I am now level 19 and finally just got a 34 protection chest piece and have only just now started seeing this particular armor show up in shops. On my 1st, longer run through, I can take my current character to just about any city and find chest armors with 34+ protection and I even just bought a set that had like 42 protection which is what made me catch on to the fact that these armors were missing during my last couple run throughs. Basically I was looking for these cool armors to see how much I had to save to get a set and after touring every city realized they were selling nothing with more than 14-16 armor initially and that I didn't start seeing good armor until each of those run throughs I was 15 or so hours into the campaign.

 

[Midnitewolf]

Basically all of the weapons are made by the games economic system. Those weapons were actually forged from raw materials and sold to the market by one of the world's blacksmith workshops and *traded with other towns (I'm not 100% sure of this because I haven't seen weapons traded in game). You cannot scale with the player because the town actually consumes those weapons, armor, ect. To increase their militia and level their garrison. There may be other economic implications too because I don't know what other mechanics the town consumption model ties into. If you look into the modable code you can see this is based on weapon and armor tier and their production rates are also specified.

Well that explains it then however this is broken a hell and does not lend to a fun gameplay environment in my opinion. What your basically saying is that everything in the game starts from 0 with the player and it takes time for the game to get its production up to speed. However the world shouldn't be starting from zero, it should be starting with a fully mature economy that the player then scales into. I know that I want to see that "Lordly Platemail" that sells for 200k the minute I walk into a town so I have something that motivated me to work toward it. I also don't want to be stuck with my starter armor and weapons for 15+ hours because it is better than anything made in the game up until that point. That is just so lame.

 

[Deathwish16]

Oh, ya i havent even looked at the code yet, not sure i will bother. But it is very interesting you found out this to be interesting to look at yourself. Modding side or simply you found the raw system to be broken in some way? am i wrong.

The consumption model was detailed in a dev diary released about a year ago. The workshop info was primarily found by looking through files and intuition. You can actually mod in your own workshops it seems. If you want to make a steakhouse that serves wine and beer all you have to do is specify inputs, outputs, and conversion time. It's really cool, a lot of the "bugs" in the game was just poor economic tweaking where the economy would drive up prices of certain outputs and drive down prices of inputs. Wood was dirt cheap but things like crossbows where stupidly expensive. Next thing you know, woodshops are netting 5000 denars a day.

 

[Midnitewolf]

The consumption model was detailed in a dev diary released about a year ago. The workshop info was primarily found by looking through files and intuition. You can actually mod in your own workshops it seems. If you want to make a steakhouse that serves wine and beer all you have to do is specify inputs, outputs, and conversion time. It's really cool, a lot of the "bugs" in the game was just poor economic tweaking where the economy would drive up prices of certain outputs and drive down prices of inputs. Wood was dirt cheap but things like crossbows where stupidly expensive. Next thing you know, woodshops are netting 5000 denars a day.

This might also explain why the good armor in my long run through, cost me 650k gold to purchase. It might be cool but I hate to say it, it sounds like it is much too complex. I am not sure how you can balance something like that to be both balanced and fun at the same time.

In my opinion, the economy has to be mature and working at the start of the game, producing every piece and item that can be made in the game at least to some capacity. There also can't be crazy inflation like having armor sell for 650k, rather it has to be set to rather reasonable pricing levels. If the economy can't do that or there are too many crazy variables to account for, then the system is too complex and needs to be scrapped in favor of a more simplistic but controllable model.

 

[Shadesmar]

This might also explain why the good armor in my long run through, cost me 650k gold to purchase. It might be cool but I hate to say it, it sounds like it is much too complex. I am not sure how you can balance something like that to be both balanced and fun at the same time.

In my opinion, the economy has to be mature and working at the start of the game, producing every piece and item that can be made in the game at least to some capacity. There also can't be crazy inflation like having armor sell for 650k, rather it has to be set to rather reasonable pricing levels. If the economy can't do that or there are too many crazy variables to account for, then the system is too complex and needs to be scrapped in favor of a more simplistic but controllable model.

i kinda like the economy this way. Pls pull ur head out of ur butt and stop complaining about a "balance that is not balanced and fun at the same time".

 

[JohannTheFirst]

I don't think it is complex enough not to be balanceable. I honestly find this not just cool, but absolutely amazing. The major problem is, that none of this is communicated to the player, and you're not able to influence it in a satisfying fashion at this point in time.

The economy can be mature, but still evolving at the start of the game. I would have no problem gaining access to lordly plate because I managed to get a bunch of workshops into a town and a (personally designed and configured) trade route that would connect that town to the required resources to produce those wares. I do have a problem with seemingly random increases or decreases in any supply because there's no in-depth interface telling you any of the causalities and/or even explanations of the mechanics other than super vague:"There's a supply and demand economy and items are crafted by workshops"

 

[Shadesmar]

@JohannTheFirst
"You'll eat what is served" and "don't look a gift horse in the mouth"
Theres no need to explain how workshops random generate weapons and price dynamics get influenced. u can try it out by urself or read code. Some features can be discovered while the game is running. Worked in warbands just fine.

Other lords will sell and buy stuff, too, and there are other workshops out there, which explains the changes in supply

 

[Deathwish16]

This honestly shouldn't be too difficult to balance. To lower the price of an item all you need to do is increase its supply, basic supply and demand. From what I have seen all you really need to do is adjust a few variables to accomplish this.
Here is the xml schema for tier 5 weapons at a blacksmith:
<Production conversion_speed="0.02">
<Inputs>
<Input input_item="iron" />
<Input input_item="hardwood" />
<Input input_item="leather" />
</Inputs>
<Outputs>
<Output output="ItemCategory.melee_weapons_5" />
</Outputs>
</Production>
All you would need to do is increase the speed at which it is converted and higher tier weapons flood the market. FYI, a 0.02 conversion speed is REALLY low.

 

[JohannTheFirst]

@JohannTheFirst
"You'll eat what is served" and "don't look a gift horse in the mouth"
Theres no need to explain how workshops random generate weapons and price dynamics get influenced. u can try it out by urself or read code. Some features can be discovered while the game is running. Worked in warbands just fine.

No. I strongly disagree and think that's terrible design.

The player can't influence something he doesn't know about. If the player can't influence something you might as well leave out any detail and depth and dynamics and make it fixed.

 

[Deathwish16]

No. I strongly disagree and think that's terrible design.

The player can't influence something he doesn't know about. If the player can't influence something you might as well leave out any detail and depth and dynamics and make it fixed.

A player doesn't really need to know exactly what is happening behind the scenes but they should intuitively be aware that raiding enemy villages and intercepting trade caravans will economically hurt an enemy empire and visa versa. Most of the mechanics I described I figured out from simple in game observation long before I looked up the details. In addition, We are talking middle ages and markets that kept track of the price of items with day to day accuracy didn't exist (however I would love to mod in the Calradia Industrial average for fun in the future).
However, I do believe that we should have more control over our caravans and workshops , this is an early access game so I suspect we will see something like it in the future.

 

[JohannTheFirst]

You won't get more control over caravans or workshops if you're not given more accurate data. In fact, I'm completely opposed to player owned Workshops randomly creating items in the first place.

And no, you don't need to have ledgers full of data on every price point in the game, but as it stands you can't even figure out why there's just such crappy equipment on the market place in the first place, or whether you can influence how your workshops perform in any way. What's a Workshop level? Why is it there? Can I upgrade it? How many days do I need to wait to have reached an equilibrium for a workshop's production? Can my caravans influence my workshops properly? Do I have any control over whether they do? What items EXACTLY does my workshop produce, and from what?

If none of this were an issue, you didn't have threads like this popping up constantly. And quite frankly, just looking at which city has 3 villages that all produce wood to prop a wood workshop down isn't really intricate gameplay and doesn't need such an in-depth and dynamic system.

Edit: This: https://www.nexusmods.com/mountandblade2bannerlord/mods/352 for example, should have been the situation with the UI in the base game. Just from this little bit of info you can deduce a lot of info at a glance, and thats cool.

 

[Deathwish16]

You won't get more control over caravans or workshops if you're not given more accurate data. In fact, I'm completely opposed to player owned Workshops randomly creating items in the first place.

And no, you don't need to have ledgers full of data on every price point in the game, but as it stands you can't even figure out why there's just such crappy equipment on the market place in the first place, or whether you can influence how your workshops perform in any way. What's a Workshop level? Why is it there? Can I upgrade it? How many days do I need to wait to have reached an equilibrium for a workshop's production? Can my caravans influence my workshops properly? Do I have any control over whether they do? What items EXACTLY does my workshop produce, and from what?

If none of this were an issue, you didn't have threads like this popping up constantly. And quite frankly, just looking at which city has 3 villages that all produce wood to prop a wood workshop down isn't really intricate gameplay and doesn't need such an in-depth and dynamic system.

The workshops do not create items at random. I believe that they are producing every item they are capable of producing at the same time, just at different rates. In addition from what I have observed all tiers of weaponry are available in the markets at all time. Its just that higher tiers are rarer and may not be in every market. Most of your complaints seem to be just a result of this being an early access game. I don't even think a workshop can level up at the moment.
I don't think there is anything I can tell you that would satisfy you with the games system. Its a early access medieval lord RPG with economic features to facilitate a trade based play style. Demanding all or nothing with the game barely into early access seem kind of unreasonable. I'm not 100% sure what the devs vision of the future is but economic clarity will probably be much improved a year from now.

 

[JohannTheFirst]

I think you're completely missing my point. The game, just like Warband, has a lot of information deliberately obscured. See the mod I linked to in above post.

I don't demand all or nothing, I'm aware that Workshop level isn't implemented, but given the history of Taleworlds, UI design and giving clear and structured information to a player, I'm not at all certain that even when you can upgrade your Workshop, do something with your Caravans, they would default to giving you enough information to actually make a decision that isn't largely random until you dissect the code or wait 3 ingame weeks for the prices to normalize.

All I'm saying is, that's not ok. That doesn't lend itself to cool gameplay mechanics and hard choices for the player, but rather randomly stumbling around and hoping to hit a jackpot by building a woodshop. When you have an in-depth economic simulation, not explaining what's so in-depth about it is nonsense.