SP - General What If The Highest Tier Troops Cost Influence (In Addition To Gold)?

[TheShermanator]

Lots of better posters have come before me on this subject, but in summary, lack of differentiation and challenge affects the late game in various manifestations:

1) Gold snowballing is a thing.
2) Influence snowballing is a thing.
3) Generally, higher tier AI clans, and the player in the late game, just feel like a bigger badder version of their lesser / earlier game counterparts. In other words, the higher tier clans have the same functions, mechanics, and resource types as lower tier counterparts, but more fiefs means more gold, more influence, etc. to buy the same resources available earlier in the game / to lesser AI counterparts.

Some of this is just normal EA stuff, but I think it's reasonable to look at existing mechanics and wonder what could be altered.

It's not my original idea, but one idea I like: Higher tier troops should be more expensive in terms of gold, so that only higher tier clans with fiefs could reliably afford them.

What if the highest tier troops and/or noble troops also cost influence - upon recruitment and for upkeep? This could be instead of raised gold costs - or in addition to raised gold costs (I'd prefer the latter).

To be sure, this hypothetical would involve a big balancing ask. But I feel like it would help many aspects of the game - especially the late game. You would really only see the best, shiniest troops with the most powerful landed clans. The player would have greater incentive for the player to get fiefs because he/she wants the shiniest of bois. It would provide meaningful places for influence to go for those players with fiefs accumulating a ton of it. And it would add variety and depth to the game; early tier clans could still do lots of stuff, but they couldn't have a front line of all imperial legionaries in their ragged little 40 man mercenary band. Rather, they would join armies of landed clans in wartime and look on those shiny troops in envy. (I've always felt that it was ridiculous for me, the player, to have a bunch of legionaries in my army after like 1 hour of a new play-through, when the player is still in ragged padded cloth armor or whatever.)

What am I missing here?

 

[Lord Irontoe]

Only if there was a reliable to way to hire nobles. Its already enough of a pain to get them. You need to find the villages that offer them and hope they have some in stock when you visit. If, on the other hand, nobles were always available at castles, then it would be fair to have to pay some influence to hire them.

As far as having to spend influence to promote them to the highest tiers, that's a hard no from me. The game's already too skewed toward low tier troops as it is, and too much of the game is locked behind higher clan tiers. This would entirely lock you out of high tier troops until you join a faction and start building influence. If they want to raise the cost of upgrades, that's fine, but I hate arbitrary limits like that.

 

[TheShermanator]

Only if there was a reliable to way to hire nobles. Its already enough of a pain to get them. You need to find the villages that offer them and hope they have some in stock when you visit. If, on the other hand, nobles were always available at castles, then it would be fair to have to pay some influence to hire them.

As far as having to spend influence to promote them to the highest tiers, that's a hard no from me. The game's already too skewed toward low tier troops as it is, and too much of the game is locked behind higher clan tiers. This would entirely lock you out of high tier troops until you join a faction and start building influence. If they want to raise the cost of upgrades, that's fine, but I hate arbitrary limits like that.

For what it’s worth, when I say highest tier, I mean literally highest tier only and specifically (t5 for regulars). Would seeing armies full of t4 stuff still be annoying from your perspective?

 

[Lord Irontoe]

For what it’s worth, when I say highest tier, I mean literally highest tier only and specifically (t5 for regulars). Would seeing armies full of t4 stuff still be annoying from your perspective?

Maybe if it was a special "elite of the elite" kind of troop that's an extra tier above the current elites. Like elite household guards or something, but not the regular top tiers. Its not as if lord armies are running around with tons of top-tier units as it is. They usually only have a handful of the best troops with the bulk of their armies being low and mid-tiers. I'd rather see more elites in armies than less.

 

[TheShermanator]

Maybe if it was a special "elite of the elite" kind of troop that's an extra tier above the current elites. Like elite household guards or something, but not the regular top tiers. Its not as if lord armies are running around with tons of top-tier units as it is. They usually only have a handful of the best troops with the bulk of their armies being low and mid-tiers. I'd rather see more elites in armies than less.

Yeah that's true. Personally (separate thread), I think that's one reason people think archers are so OP: Archers are devastating to low armor / no shield units like recruits - especially because they run out in front of heavier troops when the AI charges - and AI armies are full of recruits.

But in any case, I think that's really a separate problem - so many T1 and T2 troops - that T4 vs. T5 limitations wouldn't really affect very much.

All that being said, I phrased this in terms of highest existing tier because I wanted to minimize the variables and, by extension, extra hypothetical dev work. But I would love a T6 household guard system with troops costing influence like you're describing.

 

[HalfMetalJacket]

Only if they give Battanians archers for their common tree. Or buff their infantry. Better yet, lets see both.

Locking nobles behind influence would be a sure fire way to take away 'archers' from the archer faction.

 

[TheShermanator]

Only if they give Battanians archers for their common tree. Or buff their infantry. Better yet, lets see both.

Locking nobles behind influence would be a sure fire way to take away 'archers' from the archer faction.

I also like a version of Irontoe's idea: You leave the T2 recruitment of nobles alone (maybe higher gold costs along with all troops, but that's a separate point), but then you make it possible to recruit higher tier noble troops in friendly castles at a very high gold +influence cost.

 

[HalfMetalJacket]

I also like a version of Irontoe's idea: You leave the T2 recruitment of nobles alone (maybe higher gold costs along with all troops, but that's a separate point), but then you make it possible to recruit higher tier noble troops in friendly castles at a very high gold +influence cost.

I suppose, but I still want normal archers for Battania. I have modded them in myself, but still it should be vanilla.

 

[TheShermanator]

I suppose, but I still want normal archers for Battania. I have modded them in myself, but still it should be vanilla.

I actually do agree, separately. I mean, their Wood Runners are really good for T2 IMO, and I would want all factions to have their own unique character (that is to say, I don't think all factions should have the same access to all unit types at all tiers). But yes, Battania, which is supposed to emphasize skirmishers of all kinds and big fat phallic two handers on foot, should have a regular troop archer variant of some kind at some tier, for sure. Maybe a T3 variant from the Wood Runner?

 

[HalfMetalJacket]

I actually do agree, separately. I mean, their Wood Runners are really good for T2 IMO, and I would want all factions to have their own unique character (that is to say, I don't think all factions should have the same access to all unit types at all tiers). But yes, Battania, which is supposed to emphasize skirmishers of all kinds and big fat phallic two handers on foot, should have a regular troop archer variant of some kind at some tier, for sure. Maybe a T3 variant from the Wood Runner?

Basically yep. I don't mind Empire getting quick to train archers, so let them keep exclusive access to t2 archers.

Something like my mod would be good.

Spoiler

Keeps the roster at only 15 troops like vanilla, so no bloat. Scouts and horsemen result in a bizarre excess of cavalry in Battanian armies, so I removed them. Raiders are weird and pointless, so I tacked the falxman line into the 'Clan Warrior' one instead. In their place, I give Battania archers. Compared to the noble line, they're poorly armoured and are average in terms of skill compared to other archers. But they got axes and longbows, which makes them a fun glass cannon troop.

I might put Mounted Skirmishers back in and try make Outriders an alternate noble troop line though. Even then, I have to figure out exactly what niche Battanian 'Noble' cavalry are meant to fulfill, compared to all the other noble cavalry offerings.

 

[TheShermanator]

Basically yep. I don't mind Empire getting quick to train archers, so let them keep exclusive access to t2 archers.

Something like my mod would be good.

Spoiler

Keeps the roster at only 15 troops like vanilla, so no bloat. Scouts and horsemen result in a bizarre excess of cavalry in Battanian armies, so I removed them. Raiders are weird and pointless, so I tacked the falxman line into the 'Clan Warrior' one instead. In their place, I give Battania archers. Compared to the noble line, they're poorly armoured and are average in terms of skill compared to other archers. But they got axes and longbows, which makes them a fun glass cannon troop.

I might put Mounted Skirmishers back in and try make Outriders an alternate noble troop line though. Even then, I have to figure out exactly what niche Battanian 'Noble' cavalry are meant to fulfill, compared to all the other noble cavalry offerings.

Nice! This is pretty ideal to me for Battania. What mod is this? I just started a playthrough with new mod list and "Noble Troops" to change up the troop comp for the first time.

 

[HalfMetalJacket]

Nice! This is pretty ideal to me for Battania. What mod is this? I just started a playthrough with new mod list and "Noble Troops" to change up the troop comp for the first time.

That's my Battanian Troop Overhaul Lite mod. Huge, extensive overhauls are fun and I can see why people go for them, but I wanted something close to vanilla, but better. So the result is that.

Mind you, its not perfect by any means. I am thinking of making a big overhaul for all factions too, based around balancing them and giving every unit a place in the game.

Can't save spear infantry sadly, but I'll try.

 

[TheShermanator]

That's my Battanian Troop Overhaul Lite mod. Huge, extensive overhauls are fun and I can see why people go for them, but I wanted something close to vanilla, but better. So the result is that.

Mind you, its not perfect by any means. I am thinking of making a big overhaul for all factions too, based around balancing them and giving every unit a place in the game.

Can't save spear infantry sadly, but I'll try.

Agreed - that's actually why I went with the Noble Troops mod. It seems to have less bloat - more emphasis on T6 and T7 stuff with only a few new branches per faction. I am, personally, turned off by those mods that give every faction like 50 troops that cover every possible troop type.

When I do Battania myself, I'll have to remember this mod. Thanks!

 

[HalfMetalJacket]

Agreed - that's actually why I went with the Noble Troops mod. It seems to have less bloat - more emphasis on T6 and T7 stuff with only a few new branches per faction. I am, personally, turned off by those mods that give every faction like 50 troops that cover every possible troop type.

When I do Battania myself, I'll have to remember this mod. Thanks!

Yep, while I enjoy Bannerlord for being able to create good armies with only one culture, giving everyone the same units does ruin faction identity.

Again, don't be in any rush to use the mod, currently going through some revision right now.

 

[federally]

Why should we make it even harder to build good armies?

Right now the game really suffers from how annoying it is to level a soldier all the way.

The game actively discourages the player from taking part in even numbers fights, or really taking and risks. Because the punishments for losing fights, or even just losing too many high tier soldiers, are so incredibly high.

Pushing this even further would really make the game not at all worth playing.