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i am not sure why they are sticking with the class system with all the negative feedback the get about it,

i much prefer the warband 3 customizable class system over the bannerlord non customizable class system,

but even the warband system could be improved,

i agree with greedalicious i think that all players could pick from a large weapon pool,

having other players drop shields and scimitars shows that players should just be able to access that equipment themselves rather then rely on other people to provide them with basic equipment such as shields or good swords
 

Greedalicious

Grandmaster Knight
WB
Problem is people like Moth or TW devs want to reduce game knowledge and strategy to make it mainstream because they expect new players to master the game in a day instead of years.
Which is interesting because the game is alot more complicated now than Warband was. Alot of random elements and rock paper scissor matchups.
Reducing the strategy and game knowledge part is silly, thats manditory for competitive, instead they should work on teaching players the game and not have hidden mechanics. Technically Kick and Couch lance is a hidden mechanic in Bannerlord, two of the most vital ways to win a fight.
 

Orion

Still Not Worthy
Global Moderator
M&BWBWF&SNW
If you have to pull out those kind of tricks, it's bad game design in the first place, Warband or Bannerlord. If the shield is such a must for an archer, then it shall be a default option.
I, personally, have always thought of drops as symptoms of a problem rather than the problem themselves. What you would see if drops were disabled in Warband is probably an increase in cav kills, greater use of throwing weapons among inf, archers making risky plays for looted shields or picking up spears to deter cav, and a knock-on effect on common compositions in competitive. Probably trade 1 archer for a cav on all maps, and maybe an inf for a cav on open maps as well. At least, cav-heavy comps were very popular in NA before drops became the norm. The initial interest in drops was spurred by Vaegir archers trading scims to inf for spears as a counter to cav-heavy teams, actually. Shield drops for archers came shortly after when it was determined they had more value to archers.

Naturally, this was before Frank pushed for a patch to rebalance around drop meta rather than pursue or even consider the possibility that it's a problem caused by arbitrary & limited gear pools with either obvious best choices, no meaningful choices at all, or clear gaps in upgrade paths (e.g. Rhodok sergeant body armor has never had a true mid-tier option, just a better-than-average low tier and a high tier).
 
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Alyss

Grandmaster Knight
Which is interesting because the game is alot more complicated now than Warband was. Alot of random elements and rock paper scissor matchups.
Reducing the strategy and game knowledge part is silly, thats manditory for competitive, instead they should work on teaching players the game and not have hidden mechanics. Technically Kick and Couch lance is a hidden mechanic in Bannerlord, two of the most vital ways to win a fight.
True, it's still mindblowing that no one can explain the stance system properly and that no one can actually chamber consistently. Pretty sure taleworlds added this rng to give a chance to newer players against the experienced players. First, it was versus the experienced Warband players when the game came out, but then bannerlord revealed its own good players (cuz most warband players left) and taleworlds added crushthrough lol.

I, personally, have always thought of drops as symptoms of a problem rather than the problem themselves. What you would see if drops were disabled in Warband is probably an increase in cav kills, greater use of throwing weapons among inf, archers making risky plays for looted shields or picking up spears to deter cav, and a knock-on effect on common compositions in competitive. Probably trade 1 archer for a cav on all maps, and maybe an inf for a cav on open maps as well. At least, cav-heavy comps were very popular in NA before drops became the norm. The initial interest in drops was spurred by Vaegir archers trading scims to inf for spears as a counter to cav-heavy teams, actually. Shield drops for archers came shortly after when it was determined they had more value to archers.
Vaegir archer was digsutingly op back in the days: could get scimi and could ride coursers
 

Poddicus

Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
Sad thing is I'm pretty sure it was Callum or AVRC who said they want to decrease the frequency at which players trade weapons in Bannerlord yet I've felt the need to do it a whole lot more than I ever did in Warband
 

Orion

Still Not Worthy
Global Moderator
M&BWBWF&SNW
Vaegir archer was digsutingly op back in the days: could get scimi and could ride coursers
Yet, because of drops, the only change in equipment is that they can no longer snag a courser or better. Archers can still get scimitars--even better, for free--from cavalry. They don't get the priority over inf, but there's nothing stopping it. So what's the point of making another class get it for them if end result loadouts are the same? It's meaningless, artificial depth. Give them wider gear pools and make them pay for upgrades. Gold & small equipment pools as limits are ineffective when free equipment is freely tradeable across classes.

Also, way back in the day, Vaegir archers had both bastard swords as well. This was determined to be a bad idea. Good thing we never saw a return of strong archers with 2H swords.

...
 

tom54p

Knight
Isn't it also hilarious that they made duel mode in such a way that an equipment system would work better than a class one?
Right now not only you're forced to use a set of gear the game gives you but if you want to duel withouth shield or whatever weapon you have to drop it at the start of every round.
I'm already forced in a ft3 and in an uneven arena, let me at least deselect the shield and spear if i don't want to use them!
 

Alyss

Grandmaster Knight
Yet, because of drops, the only change in equipment is that they can no longer snag a courser or better. Archers can still get scimitars--even better, for free--from cavalry. They don't get the priority over inf, but there's nothing stopping it. So what's the point of making another class get it for them if end result loadouts are the same? It's meaningless, artificial depth. Give them wider gear pools and make them pay for upgrades. Gold & small equipment pools as limits are ineffective when free equipment is freely tradeable across classes.

Also, way back in the day, Vaegir archers had both bastard swords as well. This was determined to be a bad idea. Good thing we never saw a return of strong archers with 2H swords.

...
What you say is only true for battle. I have never seen drops being done in tdm, dm, or siege. This drop system ONLY works in a team environment. But if archers were able to always get free scim, this would be a problem.
 

Greedalicious

Grandmaster Knight
WB
True, it's still mindblowing that no one can explain the stance system properly and that no one can actually chamber consistently. Pretty sure taleworlds added this rng to give a chance to newer players against the experienced players. First, it was versus the experienced Warband players when the game came out, but then bannerlord revealed its own good players (cuz most warband players left) and taleworlds added crushthrough lol.


Vaegir archer was digsutingly op back in the days: could get scimi and could ride coursers
Chambers in Warband: Im so much better than you, I'll chamber you to screw you up even more stylishly, get ****ed.
Chambers in Bannerlord: I risked my life and the future generation to do a stupid move that can easily be blocked anyway.
:sad:

Yeah veagir archers needed the nerf. And I cried about it happening for weeks.


Sad thing is I'm pretty sure it was Callum or AVRC who said they want to decrease the frequency at which players trade weapons in Bannerlord yet I've felt the need to do it a whole lot more than I ever did in Warband
Which I dont get at all, why would weapon trading be an issue? Its just min maxing efficiency, imagine CS without being able to buy for a teammate. And as I mentioned, drops in Bannerlord actually weaken one player to strenghten another (not counting sturgia axe drop) so this is actually way worse.


Yet, because of drops, the only change in equipment is that they can no longer snag a courser or better. Archers can still get scimitars--even better, for free--from cavalry. They don't get the priority over inf, but there's nothing stopping it. So what's the point of making another class get it for them if end result loadouts are the same? It's meaningless, artificial depth. Give them wider gear pools and make them pay for upgrades. Gold & small equipment pools as limits are ineffective when free equipment is freely tradeable across classes.

Also, way back in the day, Vaegir archers had both bastard swords as well. This was determined to be a bad idea. Good thing we never saw a return of strong archers with 2H swords.

...
Creating drops for a faction is actually really fun to do, its a puzzle you can use to beat a superior faction but an inferior team. In your example for example, infantry obviously gets the priority, but if the drop is done properly, obviously depending on team setup and the map, the archer is very likely to get a scimi aswell. Worst case, if you win the round, theres a spare scimi available next round (which Bannerlord seriously has to add, losing all your picked up items is really annoying.)
Giving the player a bigger pool of weapons and gear would work, and I'd really like that, but it most likely wouldnt change the situation, since you'd have to buy it with ingame gold, making drops still a neccecity. Could also make the shop abit cluttered, it'd basically become a moba menu. Search functions would have to be made and apparently Mount & Blade players are too braindead to realise that a helmet symbol means thats where your shield helmet goes. PHEW CLOSE ONE


Isn't it also hilarious that they made duel mode in such a way that an equipment system would work better than a class one?
Right now not only you're forced to use a set of gear the game gives you but if you want to duel withouth shield or whatever weapon you have to drop it at the start of every round.
I'm already forced in a ft3 and in an uneven arena, let me at least deselect the shield and spear if i don't want to use them!
The class system is anti player.
(Watch them add a Duelist class further down the line)
And the uneven arenas I mentioned ages ago and I guess was lost in the aether.
 

Orion

Still Not Worthy
Global Moderator
M&BWBWF&SNW
What you say is only true for battle. I have never seen drops being done in tdm, dm, or siege. This drop system ONLY works in a team environment. But if archers were able to always get free scim, this would be a problem.
Well it's a good thing neither of us are advocating for free scimitars on archers, then. So why do they get them in battle, when many other post-release balance changes were battle-centric and oriented towards competitive EU meta?

Giving the player a bigger pool of weapons and gear would work, and I'd really like that, but it most likely wouldnt change the situation, since you'd have to buy it with ingame gold, making drops still a neccecity. Could also make the shop abit cluttered, it'd basically become a moba menu. Search functions would have to be made and apparently Mount & Blade players are too braindead to realise that a helmet symbol means thats where your shield helmet goes. PHEW CLOSE ONE
At least we're all stupid together. They could clean out the items that practically no-one ever used (data they could gather through their all-knowing telemetry) and the sidegrades that have no real impact, like lots of the Swadian one-handers. Actual progression or viable alternatives could go in their places, so there are meaningful choices and upgrades to be made in all slots. Except for gloves, nobody cares about those.

Expanding the pool is predicated on the idea of also removing drops or restricting them to paid equipment only. If someone wants to spend money on something to give it away, that's their choice, and it could even be worth it if they're trading for something that someone else paid for, but neither of them should be getting equipment that is objectively better than all of the options available to their class without some downside. It would be simpler to remove drops altogether and just stick to looting, which is a much more interesting mechanic IMO. It would at least make infantry even more valuable, as they'd be the best-suited to picking up extra equipment to give to their teammates on the next spawn.

That would make BL MP a million times more interesting as well, but wish in one hand...
 
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Moth_Queen

Recruit
Problem is people like Moth or TW devs want to reduce game knowledge and strategy to make it mainstream because they expect new players to master the game in a day instead of years.
No, you need a game with self-defence club newbie vs Khabib Nurmagomedov skill gap because that is how you attract new players and make them want to stay. Also, Tony Ferguson shall drop your his boxing gloves, that is the meta.

Come on, be real here.
 

Zarthas

Knight
It is hard to see Skirmish drops as not being good players trying to adapt a poor system. I really don't believe TaleWorlds designed the class system with drops in mind. (its almost like it is really fun to pick different weapons besides the 3 options you were explicitly given for your class...hmmm...)
That being said, I wish Captain players were on the drop game a little more. Giving even one pike to your archers can scare a lot of wannabe rambos.
 
i am not sure why they are sticking with the class system with all the negative feedback the get about it,
It's because they worked very hard on it. They poured a lot of development and hours into making it, and they don't want to just give it up now. All of that would have been a waste. Unfortunately, TW hasn't googled a certain fallacy.
 

Alyss

Grandmaster Knight
Taleworlds be like:
"Took me 7 years to draw"
Q5tMvK8.png
 
I agree with Orion's point about drops adding artificial depth to warband competitive. If shield drops for archers were seen as a necessity (and done by every comp team) then why not just give them the option to purchase them? That's just one example, but it's less of a faffe and easier for new players. Could argue that it might mess up the balance of public play, but Warband was a poorly balanced game anyway.
 

jon01

Knight at Arms
Tony Ferguson shall drop your his boxing gloves, that is the meta.
Gloves in boxing are mandatory, whereas shields for archers aren't, and boxing isn't a team-based game.

I wouldn't really mind it if archers got a weak shield by default in Warband, though. Awlpike drops were more of a tedious hassle (although there were attempts to disallow Long Awlpikes for cavalry by the community, which would've removed it); mostly it was relying on cavalry to drop a decent shield in exchange for an awlpike that could be troublesome (in public Matchmaking), since some random teammates potentially might not do it. Dropping free javelins wasn't much of a hassle to carry out, although it might've been an unbalanced element.

Drops should remain relevant only for optional variety and very minor buffs. It's a fun thing to do between friends, and it can be a nice surprise if a stranger kindly drops you a useful item. Ideally, the default loadout ought to be strong and acceptable without making drops, so that it would be appropriate for players to just stick with that, and then teammates won't shout at them for not bothering with drops. The developers just need to keep drops in mind when balancing the game. It needn't be seen as an unintentional element, since dropping items and picking up items is such a basic feature.

you need a game with self-defence club newbie vs Khabib Nurmagomedov skill gap because that is how you attract new players and make them want to stay.
Either Matchmaking should be Ranked with a larger playerbase or newer players can ease into the game on more casual servers to discover the joys of the combat system, and then possibly take it further competitively. There's no need to botch unique elements of the game to supposedly attract more players, otherwise there's less joy in the game to discover in the first place.
 

Helz

Knight
I agree with Orion's point about drops adding artificial depth to warband competitive. If shield drops for archers were seen as a necessity (and done by every comp team) then why not just give them the option to purchase them? That's just one example, but it's less of a faffe and easier for new players. Could argue that it might mess up the balance of public play, but Warband was a poorly balanced game anyway.
Warband was poorly balanced? How? Every loadout has multiple counters. People seem to think it was a matter of "take the best weapon...win", when in reality it was a matter of taking the right weapon for the situation. Assuming even skill, gear provides an edge, but if one player is a lot better they'll win 99 times out of 100 anyway. And new players? If they were smart, they'd stick with more experienced teammates and assist, or there's always the great equalizer (ranged).
Either Matchmaking should be Ranked with a larger playerbase or newer players can ease into the game on more casual servers to discover the joys of the combat system, and then possibly take it further competitively. There's no need to botch unique elements of the game to supposedly attract more players, otherwise there's less joy in the game to discover in the first place.
I didn't start playing MnB until about 1 year after Warband was released. It was an enormous learning curve, but I could tell it was worth it. If it hadn't had that depth, I'd have stopped playing after a few weeks.
 
If the game uses a system where different classes get different equipment, and players can drop/pick up that equipment, they're going to find a situation that makes it worth it to trade. I don't think it's worth trying to balance it out, especially now that classes are locked hard into their loadouts and all the weapons they get are "free" in the warband sense. Also new players being turned away by chambers or by not having a stance system is absurd, if none of us understand chambering or stances in BL how will anyone new to MP be turned away by the mechanics
 

Alyss

Grandmaster Knight
Warband was poorly balanced? How? Every loadout has multiple counters. People seem to think it was a matter of "take the best weapon...win", when in reality it was a matter of taking the right weapon for the situation. Assuming even skill, gear provides an edge, but if one player is a lot better they'll win 99 times out of 100 anyway. And new players? If they were smart, they'd stick with more experienced teammates and assist, or there's always the great equalizer (ranged).

I didn't start playing MnB until about 1 year after Warband was released. It was an enormous learning curve, but I could tell it was worth it. If it hadn't had that depth, I'd have stopped playing after a few weeks.
Long Awlpike drop and javelins drops were unbalanced. Swadian snowballing was a huge problem in warband, but Taleworlds decided to add snowball for every faction by just giving more lives 🤦‍♂️
 
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