What happened to layered defenses?

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As early as 3 years ago, TW mentioned in this blog the implementation of layered defenses during sieges. For those who don't wish to find it, the paragraph reads:

"The system is quite simple: castles start at level 1 and can be upgraded twice to reach their maximum level. In the example castle below, with each upgrade the castle gets taller, more dominant towers; better positions to deploy defensive machines; deeper walls at critical points for larger troop formations; greater coverage over its gatehouse; and the opportunity to deploy a layered defence."

After the addition of the new scenes added to 1.5.10, as incredible as they look, they do NOT support any idea of a layered defense. Tie that in with the fact that the defender reinforcements (since gamescom 2019) SPAWN at the gatehouse as opposed to deeper within the settlement... is this just another dead feature?

As a bonus they also imply the idea of commanding both defender and attacker troops, however aside from stop and go, there is little to no tactical prowess in sieges. The scenes look great, however, it seems they do not reflect the concept of a layered defense. Were they implying that the 'layered' part was simply referring to retreats into the keep? The biggest offender I found was Sahel Castle in the Aserai.


The general idea that not ALL settlements sport layered defense is fine, in fact, it would add flavour with certain settlements being more strategical to hold due to their fortifications than others. What we have now, however... I do hope they haven't forgotten or abandoned the idea.
 

a_ver_est

Knight
I defended Tyal few days ago and I thought that had two layers of walls, but it didn't... it looks like it have a stronghold but the inner gate has no doors and the walls are connected so it is just visual. So sad :/
 

danEN

Banned
WBM&BWF&SNWVC
The amount of features they advertised that likely aren't going to be in the game is embarrassing
 

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Grandmaster Knight
If you take a look at the custom battles siege mode, the 3 different levels of wall / defenses are available there. It is plausible to think that there will be scenes to be finished and that is why it must be that it is not yet implemented at the moment.
 

Ananda_The_Destroyer

Master Knight
The system is quite simple
Wow, unfortunate choice of words TW. When the quite simple feature becomes too complicated

I will say level 3 walls make it harder(or impossible) to shoot all the ballista guys from outside the walls, but I don't think anyone else camps out and kills all the ballista guys solo, so probably it doesn't matter to anyone else.
 

danEN

Banned
WBM&BWF&SNWVC
If you take a look at the custom battles siege mode, the 3 different levels of wall / defenses are available there. It is plausible to think that there will be scenes to be finished and that is why it must be that it is not yet implemented at the moment.
Isn't it level of the walls, so wood (1) - wood&stone (2) - stone (3). Sadly I don't think it will have anything to do with castle layers.
 

Bloc

Archduke
WB
If you take a look at the custom battles siege mode, the 3 different levels of wall / defenses are available there. It is plausible to think that there will be scenes to be finished and that is why it must be that it is not yet implemented at the moment.
As far as I know that's a leftover code/feature from "upgrades" and not related to battle mode described here.

That being said, Bannerlord's AI is not even able to handle a single layer at the moment - multilayer wouldn't be something to see unless they change something in AI
 
If you take a look at the custom battles siege mode, the 3 different levels of wall / defenses are available there. It is plausible to think that there will be scenes to be finished and that is why it must be that it is not yet implemented at the moment.
I fear that only determines the level of wall fortifications.
The siege of Makeb would be legendary if this was working
I think you mean Ortongrad? The one with three layers of walls which mean absolutely nothing to the AI as they sprint to the keep.

As far as I know that's a leftover code/feature from "upgrades" and not related to battle mode described here.

That being said, Bannerlord's AI is not even able to handle a single layer at the moment - multilayer wouldn't be something to see unless they change something in AI
Yes, it is an unfortunate reality it seems. It just seems like an absolute waste of the sceners' time to create these detailed settlements IMO, and I know by now that there won't be some magical update that will introduce improved siege AI AND layered defenses. At least, not for a couple more years. Still, this information was provided back in 2018, so it is a shame.
 

Rbtparker13

Regular
I think you mean Ortongrad? The one with three layers of walls which mean absolutely nothing to the AI as they sprint to the keep.
Nah Makeb is where it's at. Only one passage way flanked by two towers. My inner total war mind is telling me to put pike infantry in that space and watch as the enemy dies in droves.
Although Ortongrad could come in close second.

On a totally unrelated note, I want more defensive units now. Aka, pikes
 

guiskj

Squire
As much as I would love this feature, I am having trouble making sense of how it would work in practice because:
  1. Battles are over in less than 5 minutes and most of that time is taken by just dragging the siege stuff to the wall...
  2. The max number of units being 1000, with the average option chosen by player usually much lower due to performance, means there are just not enough units to make this feature work.
    1. I guess you could just make the respawning of reinforcement more selective, spawning units further into the defenses as the outer ones are taken, but this again would need much larger army sizes. I think 1500 was the largest army I have ever seen in Bannerlord, with much smaller ones a lot more common
    2. How do you balance this with attackers respawning point being all the way back in the map? The difference in distance of respawn could be crippling to the attackers. They would need to move attacker respawn points into "taken" defenses to make this work.
  3. Auto-resolve would need to be changed drastically to help maintain some level of parity of success rate between auto-resolved sieges and player-led ones.
In the end, Keep battles ought to be enough to make sieges more impactful and fun.
 
As much as I would love this feature, I am having trouble making sense of how it would work in practice because:
  1. Battles are over in less than 5 minutes and most of that time is taken by just dragging the siege stuff to the wall...
  2. The max number of units being 1000, with the average option chosen by player usually much lower due to performance, means there are just not enough units to make this feature work.
    1. I guess you could just make the respawning of reinforcement more selective, spawning units further into the defenses as the outer ones are taken, but this again would need much larger army sizes. I think 1500 was the largest army I have ever seen in Bannerlord, with much smaller ones a lot more common
    2. How do you balance this with attackers respawning point being all the way back in the map? The difference in distance of respawn could be crippling to the attackers. They would need to move attacker respawn points into "taken" defenses to make this work.
  3. Auto-resolve would need to be changed drastically to help maintain some level of parity of success rate between auto-resolved sieges and player-led ones.
In the end, Keep battles ought to be enough to make sieges more impactful and fun.

This feels all too tempting to hope for - other games achieved a decade or more ago but in a very different (FPS) context.


For auto-resolve, I imagine a defense multiplier would be needed to be applied based on each individual city/town and fortification level. Would definitely take time to balance (and for someone to assess each individually).
 

Rbtparker13

Regular
I think 1500 was the largest army I have ever seen in Bannerlord, with much smaller ones a lot more common
You know, for such a massive game. The numbers are really small. This game is huge, I don't know the exact scaling compare to warband yet the number of men each kingdom has seems so ridiculously small at times.
Probably due to performance issues though.
 

guiskj

Squire
You know, for such a massive game. The numbers are really small. This game is huge, I don't know the exact scaling compare to warband yet the number of men each kingdom has seems so ridiculously small at times.
Probably due to performance issues though.
I think the number of agents in battle is limited for performance reasons. The number of soldiers in parties/armies I think is entirely a design decision.

It could be just as simple to have parties and armies be ten times bigger. The problem really becomes how to handle suspension of disbelief when a 5k v. 5k epic battle becomes a 300 v. 300 field battle that is trickling in reinforcements for 10 minutes.

It would be awesome if battle scenes were divided in fronts for large engagements. Several fronts of 300 v. 300 that simulates the larger skirmisher of 5k v. 5k; If the player loses his front, the rest of the battle is resolved in auto-resolve. If the player's front wins, the player can decide to go fight in the next front or to let auto-resolve finish the battle, maybe with a limit of only 1 or 2 more fronts that the player can fight in and then have auto-resolve forced on him to simulate the fact that these mini front battles are going on at the same time.

... now I am getting an idea for a mod 🤔
 

Rbtparker13

Regular
I think the number of agents in battle is limited for performance reasons. The number of soldiers in parties/armies I think is entirely a design decision.

It could be just as simple to have parties and armies be ten times bigger. The problem really becomes how to handle suspension of disbelief when a 5k v. 5k epic battle becomes a 300 v. 300 field battle that is trickling in reinforcements for 10 minutes.

It would be awesome if battle scenes were divided in fronts for large engagements. Several fronts of 300 v. 300 that simulates the larger skirmisher of 5k v. 5k; If the player loses his front, the rest of the battle is resolved in auto-resolve. If the player's front wins, the player can decide to go fight in the next front or to let auto-resolve finish the battle, maybe with a limit of only 1 or 2 more fronts that the player can fight in and then have auto-resolve forced on him to simulate the fact that these mini front battles are going on at the same time.

... now I am getting an idea for a mod 🤔
Good idea but auto-resolves kinda suck, at least with my experiences. Rather not risk half my army due to auto-resolves if I can't help it.
If you make a mod like that, it would be pretty interesting to say the less. Maybe let the different fronts affect the others in different ways in the auto-resolve. Like in the battles in CK2

I really wish there was an higher option than 1000 men in a battle. If a computer/console can handle it. Let them reap their just rewards.
 
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