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What happened to "building a criminal empire"?

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five bucks

Squire
I'd be interested in a Criminal gang career ..but it's doesn't need to be in the released game, an add on would be okay
Not 100% sure whether you're saying owned alleys needs to be in the released game.

If you're saying that additional depth to crime mechanics (more stuff than owning enterprises in alleys) doesn't need to be in the base game and can be DLC, I agree.

But the player having the ability to build criminal enterprises in back alleys must be in the released game. It is something Taleworlds have sold and must deliver.
 

Antaeus

Sergeant at Arms
Weirdest part is this was in 2016, they had 5 years to fix/rework/finish this feature but yet they're still not even sure what they'll do with it... How is that even possible?

I've said it before... Bannerlord is a jack of all trades FPS battle simulator, with a bunch of relatively shallow pathways that give context and plausibility to those battles.

There are better trade sims, better empire building sims, better criminal sims better open sandbox sims out there - which all specialise in one area at the sacrifice of others. Bannerlord offers a little of all these different areas, but they couldn't out-compete those games that specialise. We play those other games that specialise, so anything Bannerlord offers is always going to be a letdown in comparison - the down side of being a jack of all trades, is that you're a master of none. Players all want Bannerlord to be as good as other games in the specialist areas they love, but Bannerlord's empire building will never be as good as Crusader Kings. It's tactical battle space will never be as good as Total War. Etc. etc. Instead it takes just enough of each style of game and combines them into something unique. But it makes it hard for those of us who love our specialist games, to see Bannerlord seem to fall short, when that's not actually what Bannerlord is - which is a game that seeks to offer a simplified version lot of different things.

But getting that balance right, just how much of each style of game to bring into Bannerlord, is a trial and error process - usually we wouldn't see this process. It would be carried out in private by focus groups and closed alpha gamers. But to TaleWorld's credit, they have done a lot of this process in the open. Unfortunately this also leads to expectations that are difficult to meet, as they explore and whittle down the final state of the game. They were clearly ambitious, and perhaps more so publicly than they should have been.

Yes, they had 5 years to fix/rework/finish these features... but they also had 5 years to decide it wasn't worth developing further - and not throw good money after bad - leaving just the basic husk of what might have been. What would be helpful would be if they addressed why they scale back segments of the game after discussing it as a possibility - that would manage expectations and prevent threads like this occurring.
 

five bucks

Squire
Unfortunately this also leads to expectations that are difficult to meet
And crime workshops shouldn't be one of those difficult ones, since it can be achieved by simply renaming an existing game mechanic (workshops) and tying it to another existing mechanic (crime rating).
 

Spinozart1

Knight
Not 100% sure whether you're saying owned alleys needs to be in the released game.

If you're saying that additional depth to crime mechanics (more stuff than owning enterprises in alleys) doesn't need to be in the base game and can be DLC, I agree.

But the player having the ability to build criminal enterprises in back alleys must be in the released game. It is something Taleworlds have sold and must deliver.
Steam page is clearly mentioning about a criminal empire... owning a few alleys is definitely not enough.
It should just be the starting point through deeper mechanics.
Actually it is already possible to "own" alleys, I'm using this half-implemented feature.
It would be really disappointing if TW decided to keep the criminal empire system for a DLC.
I'm talking about an official statement about dropped/discontinued features - not talking about Duh's personal responses, he is a developer and can't possibly know features outside of his team unless someone shares with him.
Except that Duh apparently knows a little bit about that promised feature...
LINK
 

MostBlunted

Sergeant Knight
Except that Duh apparently knows a little bit about that promised feature...
LINK
And only 2 months have passed without any further information from TW regarding this topic.

I guess we´ll get another menu in the city screen where we can invest money into the local crime scene and get some revenue or something like this (this will give -0,000123 security each fullmoon).
 
would make sense if:
- impacts on the economy of the city (positively or negatively according to the player's will)
- you can build such criminal relationships in any city (owned or not).
-you can recruit criminal units.

and now the important things:
- you can use them as an aid when you escape from a prison or make someone escape from a prison.
- you can use them to attack the besieged from within.
- they can open the city gates to you during a sudden siege (not already in progress).
- they can sabotage the city (if it had something sabotable).
- they can be used to assassinate or injure the lords present in the place. In case of failure the man sent to assassinate is killed or imprisoned and interrogated and in any case whoever commissions the assassination loses influence with the criminal leader who commissioned it and the criminal leader also loses influence towards the player or whoever has commissioned the murder.
If the interrogator speaks, then the criminal leader is arrested if he is still in town.
(so he could move elsewhere).
If he is not in town, his criminal gang is assaulted by the city troops and lords present and dismantled.
Conversely, if the criminal gang wins the fight, they take possession of the city.

This would be a criminal empire, a power capable of subverting certain situations.
Not a trivial variable that only decrees if you make some money more or less.
 

Lesbosisles

Knight
They've cut out the mechanics and don't have any plans to implement it in the near future. And I don't really see any sense in having Merchants, Artisans and Gang leaders right now. They don't differ at all. Beat up a gang leader and it will change nothing. Help a gang leader - and it will also change nothing. All three notable types give you the same recruits... What's the point?
 

five bucks

Squire
Actually it is already possible to "own" alleys, I'm using this half-implemented feature.
What did you do to do that/what does it say? After clearing numerous gangs I didn't see any indication of me owning the alley/waterfront/backstreet/clearing or any way of interacting with it, either in the menu or in the scene.
 

Danny5

Sergeant at Arms
would make sense if:
- impacts on the economy of the city (positively or negatively according to the player's will)
- you can build such criminal relationships in any city (owned or not).
-you can recruit criminal units.

and now the important things:
- you can use them as an aid when you escape from a prison or make someone escape from a prison.
- you can use them to attack the besieged from within.
- they can open the city gates to you during a sudden siege (not already in progress).
- they can sabotage the city (if it had something sabotable).
- they can be used to assassinate or injure the lords present in the place. In case of failure the man sent to assassinate is killed or imprisoned and interrogated and in any case whoever commissions the assassination loses influence with the criminal leader who commissioned it and the criminal leader also loses influence towards the player or whoever has commissioned the murder.
If the interrogator speaks, then the criminal leader is arrested if he is still in town.
(so he could move elsewhere).
If he is not in town, his criminal gang is assaulted by the city troops and lords present and dismantled.
Conversely, if the criminal gang wins the fight, they take possession of the city.

This would be a criminal empire, a power capable of subverting certain situations.
Not a trivial variable that only decrees if you make some money more or less.
+1
 

Spinozart1

Knight
What did you do to do that/what does it say? After clearing numerous gangs I didn't see any indication of me owning the alley/waterfront/backstreet/clearing or any way of interacting with it, either in the menu or in the scene.
Sorry for the confusion, I meant "I'm using it in my mod".
You are right, attacking common areas does nothing except impacting relations.
And that's why I have recycled this wasted feature and tried to give it some sense...
 

Bloc

Archduke
WB
TW doing a basic implementation of player-owned criminal businesses in alleys is reasonable, so long as they actually do it and we're not outright being lied to.
They can simply say "It wasn't fun" and announce that they won't add it ( but they have to announce that )
They don't have to add it just because some video showed it ages ago, game is still in "EA" and features can change in this ambiguous state. All you can say is "I won't buy anything from this company again" so that you can skip pressing the "buy" button when in 2065, Taleworlds release MBIII from their new studio in Mars.
But I personally think that they will just add something like the following and be done with it:
"Beat gang -> Shows a pop up -> Want to put your companion? -> Yes -> Get some 50 gold coins each week and get some negative relationship based on some random value" Shallow enough for kids to understand, basic enough for devs to implement in 6 more months, vague enough to claim they added it so it's not a lie.

Except that Duh apparently knows a little bit about that promised feature...
He can know stuff, but he can't know the exact plans/decisions/decision making/voting unless he is working on that personally or works as a game designer. I also know things about TW and Bannerlord which I can't share with you all. And in my case, it's a moral thing rather than a legal obligation. So he can't even say it unless he gets an "OK" from someone top and apparently, he didn't get OK since he is choosing the be vague. And in either way, that's not his job. Duh doesn't have to waste his time in the forum answering all these questions. They allegedly have community managers to do this exact stuff - yet, I don't see that community manager(s) in that thread where five bucks compiled every missing feature's fate.
 

Spinozart1

Knight
They can simply say "It wasn't fun" and announce that they won't add it ( but they have to announce that )
They don't have to add it just because some video showed it ages ago, game is still in "EA" and features can change in this ambiguous state. All you can say is "I won't buy anything from this company again" so that you can skip pressing the "buy" button when in 2065, Taleworlds release MBIII from their new studio in Mars.
But I personally think that they will just add something like the following and be done with it:
"Beat gang -> Shows a pop up -> Want to put your companion? -> Yes -> Get some 50 gold coins each week and get some negative relationship based on some random value" Shallow enough for kids to understand, basic enough for devs to implement in 6 more months, vague enough to claim they added it so it's not a lie.
Actually it may be the case, in some video the feature was described as an easy way to earn little money in ealry game.
Far from a "criminal empire" mechanic...
He can know stuff, but he can't know the exact plans/decisions/decision making/voting unless he is working on that personally or works as a game designer. I also know things about TW and Bannerlord which I can't share with you all. And in my case, it's a moral thing rather than a legal obligation.
We have some clue about how disappointing those informations were, since you (unfortunately) decided to quit from modding BL...
So he can't even say it unless he gets an "OK" from someone top and apparently, he didn't get OK since he is choosing the be vague. And in either way, that's not his job. Duh doesn't have to waste his time in the forum answering all these questions. They allegedly have community managers to do this exact stuff - yet, I don't see that community manager(s) in that thread where five bucks compiled every missing feature's fate.
Yeah, sure.
 

five bucks

Squire
Sorry for the confusion, I meant "I'm using it in my mod".
You are right, attacking common areas does nothing except impacting relations.
And that's why I have recycled this wasted feature and tried to give it some sense...
If you don't mind me asking, roughly how long did it take you, a single person working for free, to implement player-owned alleys in your mod?
 

Spinozart1

Knight
If you don't mind me asking, roughly how long did it take you, a single person working for free, to implement player-owned alleys in your mod?
The time it took me to figure out how it is working... And then find a way to take profit of this existing mechanic to add some features to my mod...
Roughly I would say a few hours, I'm no pro and started coding in April 2021...
That's why I'm saying that "owning areas" should be considered as a starting point of the "criminal empire", a stone in the edifice, not the finality.
But I personally think that they will just add something like the following and be done with it:
"Beat gang -> Shows a pop up -> Want to put your companion? -> Yes -> Get some 50 gold coins each week and get some negative relationship based on some random value" Shallow enough for kids to understand, basic enough for devs to implement in 6 more months, vague enough to claim they added it so it's not a lie.
Bloc has a point, it may end up as described above.
So they better remove the "criminal empire" mention on the steam page and just name it like "backstreet skirmish, a simple and basic way to make easy money early game".
The more I think about it, the more I believe that the "criminal empire" stuff may be planned for a DLC.
There is such a huge potential and enough content to convince people to pay for it...
Or it will be left as it is, and modding community will fill the gap...
 
Man watching that and other older videos showcases a better looking game. Those sieges worked. The AI used formations and manuvered on the battlefield instead of charging straight ahead like in Warband and what we got now. Not to mention those siege maps were better looking than the bland ones we got.
 

Rungsted93

Sergeant at Arms
WBWF&SVC
Man watching that and other older videos showcases a better looking game. Those sieges worked. The AI used formations and manuvered on the battlefield instead of charging straight ahead like in Warband and what we got now. Not to mention those siege maps were better looking than the bland ones we got.
Yeah I don't get it either..
 

Aurex

Veteran
WB
For 5 years, Taleworlds has allowed the 5,000,000+ people who bought the game to believe that Bannerlord would let the player use back alleys to create "criminal empires".
Yep. It's not their only... "misdirection."
Remember the great idea (which they didn't say might be in, but advertised as a feature) about developing villages and building upgrades in them? Yeeted.
They yeeted pretty much everything that would have made Bannerlord interesting and more advanced than Warband when it comes to gameplay loop.
 

Spinozart1

Knight
Yep. It's not their only... "misdirection."
Remember the great idea (which they didn't say might be in, but advertised as a feature) about developing villages and building upgrades in them? Yeeted.
They yeeted pretty much everything that would have made Bannerlord interesting and more advanced than Warband when it comes to gameplay loop.

New soundtrack for the game maybe?
 
Any time TW responds to anyone pointing out all the missing features or false advertising, TW will just say:
"Well, if you look at it from an extremely general sense, it is sorta in the game, so you're wrong."
At this rate, I think they're surpassing Trump in the quantity of lies told.
 
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