What happened to Bannerlord Tweaks?

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Ananda_The_Destroyer

Master Knight
Yeah I'm going to experiment with 100% arena/tourno XP and 3x xp for Leadership, Engineering, Medicine, Roguery, Tactics.

I used to play with that and a global 2x xp modifier. It seems like the devs followed my lead and either doubled or tripled global XP. If so, an additional 3x for those pesky impossible noncombat skills should do the trick nicely.

One thing I noticed that was incredibly bizarre is that vanilla xp for Castle Training Grounds is 1/2/3 but for Town Training Grounds it's 30/60/100.

Does that mean that one is 30x more xp than the other? Or are town TG's still on the per-stack rather than per-unit system? If so, that means they even out at stacks of 30 which is... wild to say the least.

My benchmark for tweaking troop XP was thinking a very competent commander should be able to train fresh recruits to a basic level (march in formation, hold a shield --> Tier 2) in about 2 weeks. That means 300 xp or 21xp/day.

So I generally enable the "Leadership gives xp/day" set at 10%, so 200 Leadership means 20xp/day - on top of whatever perks there are (which keep annoyingly ****ing changing).
Yeah I play usually without mods, but if they never change some skills I'll probably look into how to give engineering and medicine a daily tick like steward gets and giving the same leadership bonus per tier of troops you get from having an army to a solo party. I'd also like to chance certain perks from mis-matched roles to a role that makes sense, such as the for engineer perks in the tactics skill... I mean you can't get tactics that high on an engineer and if you make the MC do both you can't use engineering as a governor so it's a waste. But for now I play vanilla on beta.

One thing I noticed that was incredibly bizarre is that vanilla xp for Castle Training Grounds is 1/2/3 but for Town Training Grounds it's 30/60/100.

Does that mean that one is 30x more xp than the other? Or are town TG's still on the per-stack rather than per-unit system? If so, that means they even out at stacks of 30 which is... wild to say the least.

^I don't even know what this is.
 

bonerstorm

Genghis Khan't
Sergeant
Yeah I play usually without mods, but if they never change some skills I'll probably look into how to give engineering and medicine a daily tick like steward gets and giving the same leadership bonus per tier of troops you get from having an army to a solo party. I'd also like to chance certain perks from mis-matched roles to a role that makes sense, such as the for engineer perks in the tactics skill... I mean you can't get tactics that high on an engineer and if you make the MC do both you can't use engineering as a governor so it's a waste. But for now I play vanilla on beta.
Nailed it. Slow XP grind wouldn't nearly be the problem that it is if there weren't so few ways to level skills.

It's practically impossible - in normal, unmodded play - to level Leadership outside of becoming a noble and leading an army... unless you're constantly in combat against weaker foes ALL THE TIME FOREVER. I also distinctly remember sitting at rest with a full army for weeks at a time in-game watching the Leadership skill SLOOOOOOOOOWLY tick up.

It was disgusting.

There really need to be ways to level things like Medicine without regularly murdering half your troops or Engineering without sitting in pointless sieges for weeks at a time.

Old M&B had books... how about that? Just pick a book and your XP ticks up slowly on that one skill you actually want?

@Bloc's departed Freelancer mod WAS the only avenue to getting these noncombat skills on a regular basis, especially in the early game. That should have been in the base game, FFS. I can't believe that - in the planning sessions for BL - nobody on the dev team thought to look at the most popular mods for WB and said "Huh! Maybe we should do that!"
^I don't even know what this is.
In the game files, the daily troop XP tick for Town Training Grounds is 30 times bigger than the one for Castles and I have no clue why. I'm wondering if that's real or if Castle is ticking per-troop and Town is ticking per-stack.

The devs and community reps on this forum talk a big game about how complicated the simulation is... and how us mere mortals can barely comprehend how awesome it is because it works SO smoothly...

And then you get a look at the files and see **** like this.
 

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Grandmaster Knight
[...]
@Bloc's departed Freelancer mod WAS the only avenue to getting these noncombat skills on a regular basis, especially in the early game. That should have been in the base game, FFS. I can't believe that - in the planning sessions for BL - nobody on the dev team thought to look at the most popular mods for WB and said "Huh! Maybe we should do that!"
[...]
You can't imagine how many of us veteran players of the franchise wonder about this on a daily basis... Imagine the feeling when you wonder about the MP side of the game and its current state.

giphy.gif
 
OK so I have a somewhat embarrassing admission:

I did not actually play 1.7 like I thought I did. I was playing 1.6.5, which was indeed dog balls terrible.

1.7.0 is not half bad so far, though I still haven't finished the tutorial. I didn't even have to use the global XP tweak to not hate myself. It only took me twice as many hours to get my mods to work as I've spent playing it.

But it looks like the devs are even worse than I thought: arena XP is set to 6%.

SIX PERCENT!!! And I thought they were bad when they set it at 15%!

There is no excuse for that. The entire point of an arena is to be a training ground. And there's no justification for making the player fight nearly 20 times as much for the same XP just because it's more convenient than battling it outside. It's also not remotely as lucrative as battle in the field. They could even balance it by allowing some persistent damage OR making time skip ahead for each fight so it can't be spammed forever (though I hate to put even more terrible torture ideas in their heads).

Some of the Bannerlord design choices can only be explained by the devs purposely trying to make the game as grindy as possible, even if it goes AGAINST realism. To me, it says that they're not confident enough in their product to let the game stand on its own, so they make it a torture machine so players who put up with it feel like they're accomplishing something.
Arena XP is actually fixed in RBM, you will even get more XP for fighting better fighters than you so it gives you some reward even if you lose.
 

bonerstorm

Genghis Khan't
Sergeant
You can't imagine how many of us veteran players of the franchise wonder about this on a daily basis... Imagine the feeling when you wonder about the MP side of the game and its current state.

giphy.gif
Hahaaaa I lost my original 2014? account when I stopped using my college student email address. I don't know if that makes me a "veteran player" or no.

But I never played MP regardless. I find it kind of hilarious that they seem to have thought this was going to be an e-sport game, given the despair I hear that occasionally leaks over from that side of the fanbase.
Arena XP is actually fixed in RBM, you will even get more XP for fighting better fighters than you so it gives you some reward even if you lose.
So I have three mods that mod Arena XP? Tweaks and Arena Overhaul seem to mod global variables, but I don't know how that works in practice - if they overlap/overwrite each other or bug out.

Is that something that might conflict with RBM's changes?
 

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Grandmaster Knight
Hahaaaa I lost my original 2014? account when I stopped using my college student email address. I don't know if that makes me a "veteran player" or no.

But I never played MP regardless. I find it kind of hilarious that they seem to have thought this was going to be an e-sport game, given the despair I hear that occasionally leaks over from that side of the fanbase.
[...]
As a veteran, I was referring to the playable experience a player may have had with the M&B franchise in its previous installations, mod environment and multiplayer scenario... I'm not questioning the value of any forum badge or that an older account has more value than a newer one ... you know.

As for the MP, I'm not going to extend (there have been previous comments from much more illustrious people over the years in this topic) ... but everyone knows that an e-sport game is born from the proactivity, dedication and interest of the Community itself ... Only the Community will determine that significant number of fans who play or follow the competitions to create demand and earn "e-sport" tag... the Community decides what is fun and what is not, what it wants and what it does not want, how it would like to fix certain aspects that can be improved and what it does not...

Well, as for Warband in the whole universe of MP mods and Native Competitive scenarios, a foundation had been laid and after a lot of effort by the Community it had been solidified. Unfortunately Taleworlds, with its understanding of what the player wants/is fun for, did not know how to assemble a solid structure that would build upon all those years of learning that were put together over the Warband era... instead they wanted to reinvent the wheel.

But hey... it's been talked about ad nauseam...
 

MostBlunted

Sergeant Knight
Yes, you just can´t enforce a game to be an esports game, Blizzard tried it very hard with Heroes of the Storm and failed.
 
Hahaaaa I lost my original 2014? account when I stopped using my college student email address. I don't know if that makes me a "veteran player" or no.

But I never played MP regardless. I find it kind of hilarious that they seem to have thought this was going to be an e-sport game, given the despair I hear that occasionally leaks over from that side of the fanbase.

So I have three mods that mod Arena XP? Tweaks and Arena Overhaul seem to mod global variables, but I don't know how that works in practice - if they overlap/overwrite each other or bug out.

Is that something that might conflict with RBM's changes?
Very likely.
 

bonerstorm

Genghis Khan't
Sergeant
Very likely.
Well it appears that I haven't broken the system by having those three mods. I saw one error message at one point suggesting that Arena Extended's xp mod variable wasn't taking effect, but that's it.

Combat XP progresses at a reasonable enough pace in Arena that I don't hate myself for playing it hours in a row on a fresh save to build up my character before going into the real adventuring world.

It feels a LOT less stupid than grinding looters.
 

CptMuppet

Sergeant
And that's just the combat skills. You could successfully capture every town and castle on the map without leveling Engineering into triple-digits. You need to kill a MILLION peasants to level Roguery to 275.
Oh, come one, it's clearly not a MILLION peasants. If you put 5 focus points into Roguery and 7 attribute points into Cunning, you only need to kill 644287 peasants, and if you put 10 points into Cunning, you need to kill as little as 349100 of them, it's not that hard :roll:
And the best part of it is that I am not even joking here :grin:

Yeah I'm going to experiment with 100% arena/tourno XP and 3x xp for Leadership, Engineering, Medicine, Roguery, Tactics.
You have said earlier that leveling up combat skills and Leadership is too grindy for you in vanilla game, so if I were you, I would definitely set higher xp multiplier than 3x for Engineering, Medicine, Roguery and Tactics. If that is possible of course, I'm not familiar with mods you are using.

I have made not so long ago a very detailed bug report regarding extremely slow leveling rate of Roguery and I think 3x xp is very far from being enough to fix it. And it is important to say that I personally don't mind that much the leveling rate of Leadership and even like it for combat skills, so it probably makes it even worse for you.
I haven't done such in depth calculations and analasys of the other skills yet, but from my experience Medicine, Engineering and Tactics can be leveled up at best 1.5x faster than Roguery, so it is probably the same story for them.
 

bonerstorm

Genghis Khan't
Sergeant
Oh, come one, it's clearly not a MILLION peasants. If you put 5 focus points into Roguery and 7 attribute points into Cunning, you only need to kill 644287 peasants, and if you put 10 points into Cunning, you need to kill as little as 349100 of them, it's not that hard :roll:
And the best part of it is that I am not even joking here :grin:
Hahahaa was it your bug-post that I stumbled along that I've been referencing all this time? It was at least 6 months ago, which I wouldn't call "not so long".

I remember somebody getting a response from the dev that something like the value of units ransomed wasn't being factored in to Roguery XP --> not intended. Then that person asked the dev "Hey are we really supposed to kill hundreds of thousands of peasants to max out? Is this actually intentional?" and then radio silence :razz::iamamoron:🤮
You have said earlier that leveling up combat skills and Leadership is too grindy for you in vanilla game, so if I were you, I would definitely set higher xp multiplier than 3x for Engineering, Medicine, Roguery and Tactics. If that is possible of course, I'm not familiar with mods you are using.
Yep! I've got a global modifier of 2x and another 3x modifier on the worst-xp-curve skills --> 6x XP for Engineering etc. Kaoses Tweaks (recently resurrected by an absolute unit). That seems to be a nice happy medium since I made that change.

And even with that Engineering is still leveling like hot garbage regardless. Like WTF. In my one and only siege so far on 1.7.0, my Engineer with 80 base spent TWO WEEKS constructing three trebuchets and (despite max focus) earned like 2sp. I seriously want to know what brand of meth whoever decided that XP curve was smoking.

One of the things I miss most about @Bloc's Freelancer mod was the ability to level hard-to-acquire skills in the early game by taking "jobs" in an army.
And it is important to say that I personally don't mind that much the leveling rate of Leadership and even like it for combat skills, so it probably makes it even worse for you.
I haven't bothered to go noble in like... most of the last IRL year? The game was just too garbage to keep playing that far.

But I remember Leadership being somewhat annoying to grind but fairly inoffensive relative to Engineering, Roguery or Medicine. I remember sitting in an army for weeks on end doing pretty much nothing watching that **** sloooooooowly level up even with max-soc and max FP. But - unlike E/R/M - it actually leveled.

The thing that REALLY annoyed me was how it was and is impossible to level Leadership up to anything noteworthy without going noble OR grinding constant relentless battles with looters. And that REALLY pissed me off the first time I played, when I maxed out FP into Leadership before realizing that it would screw me.
 

CptMuppet

Sergeant
Hahahaa was it your bug-post that I stumbled along that I've been referencing all this time? It was at least 6 months ago, which I wouldn't call "not so long".
Nope, mine is from like three weeks ago. Here it is, if you are interested. This post is very long, but it have some fun data, for example if you wanted to max out Roguery in 20 in-game years by raiding a village, you would need to raid it for 347 hours daily on average for those 20 years. :wink:

The thing that REALLY annoyed me was how it was and is impossible to level Leadership up to anything noteworthy without going noble OR grinding constant relentless battles with looters. And that REALLY pissed me off the first time I played, when I maxed out FP into Leadership before realizing that it would screw me.
You can get Leadership to level 200+ without leading armies if you don't mind playing a longer game. The key to this is to have quartermaster with "Gourmet" perk in Steward, all food types for the most of the time and quite big party. This way you can get high morale without having to fight every hostile party, and this morale should get you some acceptable values of Leadership xp daily.
 

Bluko88

Regular
It feels a LOT less stupid than grinding looters.
If you haven't killed every last single Looter in Calradia, then you have not beat Bannerlord! Conquered all the other Kingdoms? Good now you can start the true end game of wipe out the Looters. You must make them all suffer for that one time they stoned you to death that very first time you played on Realistic damage...

More serious note: A little grind is okay, most skills don't bother me too much, but I definitely would not complain if they leveled faster. Hmm guess I never noticed Arena XP was nerfed, probably why I don't bother with it besides very early game. Just another wonderful design decision to frustrate the player. Roguery, Medicine, and Engineering are the worst culprits for leveling now if you ask me. Roguery is probably the worst. I'm guessing Smithing is probably pretty tedious now without 100K Javelins, unless you get real lucky with unlocks (a shame it'll likely never include Armor).

I don't expect getting to 300 Skill in something should be easy (that's like being the Grand Master) but you should be able to get 200 or so in a couple game years especially if it's your primary skill.

Think what bugs me the most is no matter how you create your Character you're always a wet noodle with no experience. Is it asking too much to be able to start off a skill or two at 100 or at least 50? So you're Character is at least competent at something. You'd think at least a 40 or 50 year old Sandbox character would have a few 100-200 something. I mean they ain't going to live that long.. I really wish every Focus Point would also add at least 10 Skill, heck maybe even 25 Skill, I mean it's not like you get that many, and you have to pick and choose quite a bit with Attributes.

It just annoys me with Nobles in particular all tend to have 100+ Skills. I mean you can reason that they probably have access to tutors and trainers, but then why aren't these in game for the player? Why not let me spend denars to get some training One-Handed training from Master Obi-Wan? Couple thousand denars and a few days, and you go from maybe 90 to 100.

Be great for Companions/Family Members. Especially Companions as besides Steward can't really expect much progression from them. I really hope some kind of training/tutoring is in the works for a future patch, because it is very much needed.
 

CptMuppet

Sergeant
I'm guessing Smithing is probably pretty tedious now without 100K Javelins, unless you get real lucky with unlocks
Lack of 100k Javelins haven't changed the leveling of Smithing very much. There are plenty of 2H sword good enough for this. A bigger nerf was much lower xp fo smithing weapons in general. In my opinion, the best way of leveling up Smithing in current versions of the game is smithing 4 tier 2H swords with bunch of companions and smelting them with hero you want to level up. Doing expensive smithing orders also provides decent xp boost later on.

I really wish every Focus Point would also add at least 10 Skill, heck maybe even 25 Skill, I mean it's not like you get that many, and you have to pick and choose quite a bit with Attributes.
It would be good to have feature like that. Low skill levels need just a tiny amount of xp compered to higher levels, so it would not be imbalanced, but it would help getting started with leveling up skills. For example, leveling Scouting is pretty fast later on, but it is pain in the ass to level it up until you get its level high enough to be able to spot tracks.
Another idea about this might be adding a feature like hiring a tutor to teach you passively a certain skill. It could be easly balanced by picking such daily xp value that would be useful for getting lower levels but useless for getting high level, or even by making it working only for low skill levels of the skill.
 

bonerstorm

Genghis Khan't
Sergeant
I don't expect getting to 300 Skill in something should be easy (that's like being the Grand Master) but you should be able to get 200 or so in a couple game years especially if it's your primary skill.
I take a somewhat different view... if you have 10 ability and 5 focus (which suggests maximum talent and maximum focus to the exclusion of most of the rest of your character sheet), then it shouldn't be a nightmare grinding your skill to 300.

If you're 10/10 Intelligence and put 5/5 ranks of your life focus in Chess, then yeah you should probably be a chess grandmaster with a few years of dedicated effort. Someone else older and wiser will probably have higher skill points than you, but you'll have made the cut.
It just annoys me with Nobles in particular all tend to have 100+ Skills. I mean you can reason that they probably have access to tutors and trainers, but then why aren't these in game for the player? Why not let me spend denars to get some training One-Handed training from Master Obi-Wan? Couple thousand denars and a few days, and you go from maybe 90 to 100.
THIS. Or books. Or something.

@Bloc's Freelancer mod allowed you to gain XP for troublesome skills by taking jobs in armies. That made a TON of sense. The early game is a nightmare for getting XP.
I really wish every Focus Point would also add at least 10 Skill, heck maybe even 25 Skill, I mean it's not like you get that many, and you have to pick and choose quite a bit with Attributes.
At the very least, this should apply at character creation. Why do you have to start out at like 10 per FP or whatever it is? That's criminal. You're basically a baby.

If your backstory justifies 3 focus points in Bow, then you should start out with 75 skill in Bow. Period. I'm 99% sure that Warband wasn't nearly this punishing with starting skills.
It would be good to have feature like that. Low skill levels need just a tiny amount of xp compered to higher levels, so it would not be imbalanced, but it would help getting started with leveling up skills. For example, leveling Scouting is pretty fast later on, but it is pain in the ass to level it up until you get its level high enough to be able to spot tracks.
Like I said before I'm sure... Smithing's not bad if you use the order system AND have the smelting unlocks from BL/Kaoses Tweaks. Filling orders gives WAY more XP than crafting a similar value of weapons in Free Build (at least it appears that way).
 
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