What are you playing right now?

[Antoine de Saint-Exupéry]

are all very interrelated excuses for the pre-commercial release state of the game, and ones that have been trotted out frequently. I've had this discussion on this forum before but suffice it to say I don't find them sufficient excuses for why the game was the way it was for so long

but the "such a hard life" is very much not an argument being made "for why the game was the way it was for so long", the medical situation is a recent development that is the impetus for the game changing away from how it was. so your saying it's being used as an excuse for the previous state just... doesn't follow. it makes no sense.

the game was the way it was because the (sort of) one guy making it is an eccentric weirdo and that's not an excuse that's just... why it is what it is. it's fine. there's nothing to say it shouldn't be the way it was, it's not like there's some rulebook for how games must be (beyond performance, i guess? but that part was always a work in progress). "being the way it was" isn't a thing that requires excusing, it's just to your taste, or not, and either is valid.

the new development of the medical situation caused them to decide to make a change to the way it was in an effort to find broader appeal, but that doesn't make it better or worse or mean that people were just making excuses before. and again emphatically "life struggles as excuse for it being bad" just isn't a factor here because the life struggles and the "being the way it was" aren't in the same timeframe, it just doesn't make sense as a statement.

 

[Ser Jon]

Please read the exchange before indulging in a random attack. She claims I said "ill intent" 3 times when I explained "they didn't care" two times. Putting words into someone else's mouth is dishonest (i.e. strawman), especially when you are warned about it. And that's just the most annoying of the strawman barrage.

Wait a second, Mad, I just want to clear something up here. I never claimed you said "ill intent". I was said that was what you were harboring with your wild assumptions and accusations. Because you went straight off the bat with it, immediately honing in on this idea that Tarn and Zach just didn't do these changes (which do not, for that matter, make the game "better") for nefarious reasons, to the point that you accused them of being sociopathic. There's nothing dishonest or strawman about stating that about your behavior, just as there wasn't when you assumed I liked or was defending Dwarf Fortress due to "sentimental" reasons.

I know we won't agree on the topic itself, but hopefully that clears up what looks to be a massive misunderstanding.

When Mad Vader doesn't have any arguments that can change the course of a conversation he tends to try and attack your character.

Well, I wouldn't go that far. I think it was just a misunderstanding, really.

No, Ser Jon did not say the game was bad, those are my own words. That said, the whole "it's just (sort of) one guy!" and "he has such a hard life" are all very interrelated excuses for the pre-commercial release state of the game, and ones that have been trotted out frequently. I've had this discussion on this forum before but suffice it to say I don't find them sufficient excuses for why the game was the way it was for so long, and I likewise feel that these are things you're more likely to accept as true and valid coming from a place of already enjoying the game as opposed to the alternative.

My commentary wasn't meant as a statement to declare something like that. Pre-Steam release, the game is perfectly fine and playable, and there's nothing wrong with not having a traditional UI. That's its design choice, one that both Tarn and Zach felt made more sense and was better at the time (exactly why they also want to simulate all sorts of seemingly random things). I was just explaining why Tarn and Zach felt comfortable with keeping that design choice for the time being and why they felt the need now to not replace the original, but to offer an alternative (because vanilla DF will be kept and updated too). But the design, or rather lack thereof, isn't something bad that needs to be excused away and that was not the intention of my explanations.

 

[Kentucky 『 ＨＥＩＧＵＩ 』 James]

KoH2, caved in without waiting for proper reviews, definitely in honeymoon period right now, but so far it is what I wanted from the game, with minor hiccups here and there. Can definitely see how it could be disappointing for someone else, though, reviews calling it KoH1.5 are pretty much on point.

Battles are awful, enemy marshal just suicide charges right into your army, so I haven't even had an occasion to check if the VP thing they have introduced to win makes sense. Probably not, at best they're discouraging corner camping, but then they also prevent any major maneuvers, because they're at the spawn points, so you need to meet your opponent somewhere half way.

I've had a brief look at the game and it really does look bad. They've changed almost nothing, it barely even looks that much better. It's yet another shoddy remaster. :--(

It's a shame because it's a really good idea for a game. If it had come out in 2004 it would have been acceptable as a sequel, but in 2022 its just sad. RTS ded jonra

 

[Do not look here]

I've had a brief look at the game and it really does look bad. They've changed almost nothing, it barely even looks that much better. It's yet another shoddy remaster. :--(

It's a shame because it's a really good idea for a game. If it had come out in 2004 it would have been acceptable as a sequel, but in 2022 its just sad. RTS ded jonra

There's a lot more emphasize on your Knights now, you need to get right guys governing right provinces (without governor they provide only 10% of the resources they generate) and you need to choose between skills that either benefit the governors or whatever knights happen to be more. I'm really digging it, but there's just not enough slots, especially now that you can spec every role differently and not just Marshals.

I'm still on the fence about the building system, they now have global upgrades, but there's less slots. In general it's back to the old KoH dilemma of either utilizing all resources of the Province or building it into something useful, there's just a different wrapper on it now. There's less small crap to quickly queue up to build now and more sitting around waiting for cash to flow in for next upgrade/building, but you get to move your diplomat(s), spy and faith dude around in the meantime, so it's not all sitting idly.

I really like what they did to unit roster, though Province-specific units are gone aside of some really powerful ones that you can recruit **** knows where because I've stumbled into single one so far. The combat is fun, I don't care it's jank, I don't care it's basically KoH with a layer of nail polish and horrible hiccup every time the battle starts.

You're selling it short, it would have been pretty okay if it released somewhere before at least 2012.

 

[RozBritanicus]

just got that monkey game Ancestors

 

[Ser Jon]

Dwarf Fortress and FFXIV has been preoccupying my gaming time lately.

 

[Mad Vader]

I gave Distant Worlds 2 (now extensively patched) another go. It was not really worth it. It's just a basic 3D version of DW1 with ugly ship models and confusing UI (redesigned from the equally confusing DW1, because UX is hard and they can't hire another person). While playing it for the 10 hours or so, I always caught myself wishing to play DW1 instead. Somehow DW2 didn't succeed even to replicate all the DW1 features or develop them beyond basic functionality.
The basic approach is right, "make DW1 3D and add new fun mechanics" (*glares at Taleworlds*), but the result is like the DW1 programmer said this to his little untalented brother. The superfans would say "but it has so much potential", like any damn fools about any damn game, but this is not okay and it won't be okay enough ever.
We are stuck in the space Civ genre with games for the masses like Stellaris. Funny how Master of Orion 1 had better features than both of them, and I'm talking about ship design, which should be the most fun thing outside tactical space battles. This timeline sucks.

On the bright side, I'm finishing my second Cyberpunk playthrough, and it is a blast. The replayability is in trying different character builds with quite different approaches to combat, and you could get 2 or 3 playthroughs out of it without being bored.

 

[Mad Vader]

Rimworld had 125K reviews over 4 years. DF+UI had 6K while being out for 2 days. I'm picking Steam reviews as an authority as that's an objective, if imperfect measure.
So "wait and see" is exactly what a gentleman and a scholar would do at this point to be able to compare them. Unless he is heavily biased and is not really a scholar.

DF+UI now had 14K reviews over 3 weeks and is at 96% steam rating. That accounts for the superfans, including those who bought it merely to support the bros and not to play, and some curious new people who are not as charmed, judging by their negative reviews (it wasn't me!).
Rimworld is at 127K reviews and 98% rating. Gaze at it in awe and despair!

and dwarf fortress is currently at 97%. perhaps you are underestimating the game for some reason?

The people have spoken and said 96%. Still pretty good for any game, but less than another game we compare it to. Hopefully more people will buy DF and will judge for themselves is it a good game, and we'll have an even lower more accurate rating!

How are you DF fans, still playing DF? Is it any good between crashes?

The last DF update was a new classic mode that turns everything to ASCII again! Brilliant idea! How didn't the Rimworld guy think of this?? Maybe he was too busy writing books about game design, the fool.
They also finally hired a programmer from the community, which is unironically the best piece of news for the DF future since they joined with Kitfox (I'm not sure what is their role, but assume it's publishing and fixing bugs? UI? trying to manage eccentricity?).

 

[Krik]

thank you for the update, annoying ghost of the anachronists guild

 

[Mad Vader]

thank you for the update, annoying ghost of the anachronists guild

if you have nothing to say, don't say anything

 

[Antoine de Saint-Exupéry]

it's not "a new classic mode", it's the as promised side by side continued updating of the free version (which you cant get at https://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/ )

it's still weird how personally aggrieved you are by the existence of a game, you know. you do you, but, weird.

 

[eddiemccandless]

I am having a blast with the steam DF myself, I had tried playing it in the past but just couldn't get past the awful UI. A couple of comments on the discussion:

1) There are significant design advantages in choosing the ASCII approach over full UI/graphics when you are developing something and making a lot of changes on the fly. Trying out something fundamentally new is a lot easier if you have ASCII based graphics than if you have to redesign animations for the feature that you have in mind. Using ASCII also allows you more freedom and creativity. Overall it's faster and sleeker and I think it's a big reason for why DF became so complex over time.

2) I played both DF and RimWorld, I enjoyed both but honestly RimWorld did not keep my interest. It felt shallow. With DF I can still see the randomization under the hood but it's complex enough that it feels less noticeable.

3) You actually can not be neurodivergent and home and "professional" at work. That is not at all how that works. If you are neurodivergent you should play to your strengths and create weird and fantastic things that no one else would have been able to produce, like say a really quirky ASCII based dorf simulator that paves the way for multiple game genres

4) I don't really know much about the people who made the game so I am not sure if 3) applies at all here. However, to that I would add that all mathematicians I met in my life (and I know a decent number because of my job) think and act in a way that is fundamentally different from what most people do. And by that I don't mean better, or even smarter, just different. It's a completely different way of thinking so honestly when I found out that a math PhD was involved in this I was like "ah yes that checks out".

 

[Mad Vader]

it's not "a new classic mode", it's the as promised side by side continued updating of the free version (which you cant get at https://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/ )

it's still weird how personally aggrieved you are by the existence of a game, you know. you do you, but, weird.

I promised you we'll check the numbers after a month and here they are. My post was meant to tease you DF fans and you can see the emojis saying just that.

And I am personally aggrieved by the DF crew and their self-centered outlook enabled by almost cult-like fandom. I think it's wrong.
I've seen modders releasing free mods and claiming they are doing it for themselves, but ultimately the act of releasing something to the general public proves them wrong. Once you give out something free and acknowledge the praise for your benevolence of providing free fun, you are doing it for others too. Because you always were once you decided to release it.
So it is your responsibility not just to do whatever you feel like, but to listen to players and address their issues, even if you are working for free. (And the DF crew were not even doing that, relying on donations for years.)

By ignoring what players wanted, they were acting selfishly, and this selfishness bordering on obliviousness is what grinds my gears. If you can't or won't see it, that's fine. Just don't question my motives, as if THEY are problematic.

I have foreseen years ago that someone else would make a better DF and they will be too late for their own party by not seeking commercial success while not doing anything else in life to support themselves (? I think). The karmic outcome enabled by free market capitalism has already struck and I'm not out to gloat too much, just tease the superfans.
(Maybe if they didn't live in the cutthroat US, but in Germany, they would have lived on some kind of special pension for services to humanity, healthcare included. )

I am having a blast with the steam DF myself, I had tried playing it in the past but just couldn't get past the awful UI. A couple of comments on the discussion:

Great! I wish to hear more about it once you have some thoughts on the game.

3) You actually can not be neurodivergent and home and "professional" at work. That is not at all how that works. If you are neurodivergent you should play to your strengths and create weird and fantastic things that no one else would have been able to produce, like say a really quirky ASCII based dorf simulator that paves the way for multiple game genres

3 is fair point, but I also believe that if professionalism is your value, you either make yourself do stuff you don't want, but need to do, or you find someone who would do it for you. Just doing stuff you like is self-indulgent and childish.

 

[Antoine de Saint-Exupéry]

i'm not saying you're problematic, i'm saying it's just very strange to be so mad about a game you don't like.

(it is also very funny to ramble about karmic outcomes and so forth after they easily blew past their sales goals)

 

[eddiemccandless]

.
I've seen modders releasing free mods and claiming they are doing it for themselves, but ultimately the act of releasing something to the general public proves them wrong. Once you give out something free and acknowledge the praise for your benevolence of providing free fun, you are doing it for others too. Because you always were once you decided to release it.
So it is your responsibility not just to do whatever you feel like, but to listen to players and address their issues, even if you are working for free. (And the DF crew were not even doing that, relying on donations for years.)

I am a bit puzzled by this to be honest. I have seen PoP devs push back pretty strongly against players that were requesting things that were against their vision for the mod (like, I don't know, more Noldors! Or more high fantasy elements). I don't think I saw you doing that so I guess you would have given in to players requests? Not what I would have expected.

My view is that games are a creative endeavor, and as such they should follow the view of the artist that makes them. Then if people like them they will buy them. DF classic is like abstract art. Definitely not for everyone (as I said I couldn't get into it), but you gotta acknowledge the craftsmanship that went into it.

 

[Antoine de Saint-Exupéry]

My view is that games are a creative endeavor, and as such they should follow the view of the artist that makes them. Then if people like them they will buy them. DF classic is like abstract art. Definitely not for everyone (as I said I couldn't get into it), but you gotta acknowledge the craftsmanship that went into it.

appropriately, it's in the museum of modern art

 

[Adorno]

So I'm playing Death Stranding, drunkenly traversing a desolate landscape, moving random stuff from point A to point B, like a high tech errand boy, trying to stay on my feet, interrupted by cutscenes trying to justify my inane UPS job.
It's the weirdest, most boring game, I've ever played. Sad, because there were some good sci-fi ideas in the 'lore'.

 

[Mad Vader]

I am a bit puzzled by this to be honest. I have seen PoP devs push back pretty strongly against players that were requesting things that were against their vision for the mod (like, I don't know, more Noldors! Or more high fantasy elements). I don't think I saw you doing that so I guess you would have given in to players requests? Not what I would have expected.

I hated suggestions. Most players suggestions are stupid. Why? Because they are not in the shoes of a game designer who needs to think more broadly about different groups of players, and not just a single one nagging about something. Good suggestions are typically those raised by a greater number of players, preferably veterans. Those need to be listened to. Like getting a real user interface and tile graphics for a keyboard-mostly ASCII game.
Another thing about suggestions is that players may request a specific feature, but they may still be wrong about it in design terms. They may actually want something else, but they don't have the concepts to deconstruct the game design and rework it to give them what they want, or are simply ignorant of various implementation possibilities. In those cases, as a designer, you need to conceptualize the need from the specific request and satisfy it in a better way than what the players are suggesting. Players are incompetent at design and unaware of that!

My view is that games are a creative endeavor, and as such they should follow the view of the artist that makes them. Then if people like them they will buy them. DF classic is like abstract art. Definitely not for everyone (as I said I couldn't get into it), but you gotta acknowledge the craftsmanship that went into it.

For me, a game is an entertainment product. Only few games can aspire to be artsy, the rest are results of better or worse craftsmanship. Of course there is some creativity in the process, but the design mostly follows genre limitations, expectations and tropes, and challenge-reward loops. Nothing too artistic about that and that's fine. Pompous game designers may pretend to be auteurs, but they are craftsmen.
DF is an unusual and creative product historically. We know it influenced many games. But it's obsolete for a long time and never really got out of the early 90s. It's not art, it's history, and should probably stay history, as the DF bros couldn't or wouldn't update it with the times or develop it in new, interesting directions.

 

[Antoine de Saint-Exupéry]

it never got into the early 90s, having first been released in 2006. you're thinking about UnReal World (and are wrong about that too). more to the point, the dorf fort boys constantly develop it in new interesting directions - but maybe those just don't appeal to you (or maybe you're just unaware, being so comitted to being pompous about it).

 

[AussieboiboiYT]

I think it's been done before, but a cursory search shows me that it's lost in the annals of time.



Basically, this thread is like the "What are you listening to/reading right now?" threads in the Arts subforum, except its for games (be it of the digital or analogue (but not sporty) kind).

I think it can double up as a "oh hey how's that game?" thread for games that don't have their own threads.



Right now, I've got a copy of Tales of Vesperia I'm playing through. I've always liked the Tales series, and saw that it was cheap.

Aside from minor character annoyances, I'm enjoying it a lot.

Also about to finish Fable 2, and maybe pick up 3. Dunno if I should go for American McGee's Alice + Madness returns first though. Anyone played those yet?

I think it's been done before, but a cursory search shows me that it's lost in the annals of time.



Basically, this thread is like the "What are you listening to/reading right now?" threads in the Arts subforum, except its for games (be it of the digital or analogue (but not sporty) kind).

I think it can double up as a "oh hey how's that game?" thread for games that don't have their own threads.



Right now, I've got a copy of Tales of Vesperia I'm playing through. I've always liked the Tales series, and saw that it was cheap.

Aside from minor character annoyances, I'm enjoying it a lot.

Also about to finish Fable 2, and maybe pick up 3. Dunno if I should go for American McGee's Alice + Madness returns first though. Anyone played those yet?

I am playing ghost of tsushima cuz I just got it and I am waiting for a bannerlord update to fix my corrupted saves
and yeah