[Werewolf] SMAC: Unity [Game ends!]

[Pharaoh Llandy]

Yay Xardob \o/

 

[Phonemelter]

I'm actually not getting a particularly innocent vibe from Adaham yet, and I do feel like the focus on wolf hunting is missing this time around. Don't know if it's because he actually is hard to get a read on without knowing his role beforehand, or if he's actually scum.

He's just courting Pizzadude in hopes that he can get the new guy on his side. 

 

[Magorian Aximand]

I'm actually not getting a particularly innocent vibe from Adaham yet, and I do feel like the focus on wolf hunting is missing this time around. Don't know if it's because he actually is hard to get a read on without knowing his role beforehand, or if he's actually scum.

He's just courting Pizzadude in hopes that he can get the new guy on his side. 

I feel like there's a lot of danger of "buddying up" this game. Pizzaham, Team Spam, Pizza's early clearance of me, etc.

 

[Pharaoh Llandy]

You're just jealous that you're not in the Spammasters QT Club

 

[Magorian Aximand]

Well, yeah, but that doesn't make me wrong!

 

[Phonemelter]

To me, Pizza's "buddying" seems to be more calculated and diplomatic in a way that puts me off. Maybe I am biased because of how dishonest I feel his interactions were with me, but it doesn't sit well with me.


Yeah, hard to separate us Spammers and our 1,400+ post thread. 

 

[Adaham]

You didn’t lure him, he stalked you back here. You don’t get the kudos for that, Pizzaguy does

Yet it was my irresistible charms that turned him into a stalker. You know, like the girls with too short skirts asking for it? 

I can't believe how quick and easy that post was to put together. Man, I'm liking this...

High five, dude! Haven't skipped a single of your posts so far. And I even went back and re-read all of your posts. Only 6 months ago, this would have been...

...inconceivable...

Oh, and good case on Elikronic. That's basically what it boils down to.

Losing argument? I assume this means are think Pizzadude's problems with me are legit - which points do you agree with? Do you not agree with me that his avoidance of some questions (which he claims he is not answering because my drunkeness was all just a smokescreen for me being wolfy), selective interpretation of suspicion (game theory is apparently only relevant when it favours him), and clear incorrect characterization of a few points I made (i.e. those classically wolfy "arguments," which were not, in fact, arguments for him being wolfy)?

Oh no, I'm not falling for this one. You're not getting me into one of those quote wars. All I'm saying is, that purely from an argument point of view, I found Pizza had your number. Whether we call it a losing argument, or "some form of misunderstanding" is technically moot. All that matters, is what I think this says about your alignment.

Last game - I think - I warned you NOT to get into a quote war with Soot, even predicting that you were gonna lose the argument. Yet, you did and you lost the argument. Maybe you don't feel like you lost, that's fine, but watching this from the outside is like watching an inevitable car crash happening in slow motion.

I've already said what I think about you. Mostly that goes back to your LoS that felt odd to me. It didn't seem quite as careless as you want it to come across. More fabricated. That rubbed me the wrong way. The discussion with Pizza was more or less going through the motions. But still, there wasn't much happening there that made me think it's the innocent you.

I'm also not trying to emulate any style of "Neoxardobism." Last game was an attempt to address problems that people have been having with me recently, i.e. getting into hard-to-read quote-wars, spamming, making posts a pain to read, etc., so I changed my style a bit to accommodate.

First off, I lauded your playstyle last game. Also, "Neoxardobism" isn't something to emulate, it's exactly what you described you had been doing. You don't have to call it "Neoxardobism" if you want to stay unique, but for me it was the neoxardobism version of Phoney, and I liked it. And basically this has nothing to do with the fact, that last game I had an innocent read of you right off the bat, and this time not.

Adaham's posts are much less interesting to read when they are filled with tiny quotes.

QED. 

Yeah, I'm trying to make an impression on Pizza. Since he came here to play with me, I feel like he deserves a bit more than me just pissing around. But don't worry, before long I'll revert back to my old (read: new) ways.

I'm actually not getting a particularly innocent vibe from Adaham yet, and I do feel like the focus on wolf hunting is missing this time around. Don't know if it's because he actually is hard to get a read on without knowing his role beforehand, or if he's actually scum.

Considering that I've now twice expressed my doubt about your "buddying up", I'm wondering if this is only the next chapter in the "Soot toying with Adaham" saga. Other than that, while I agree that my focus isn't quite there yet, the argument is a little bit far-fetched. After all, I've been accused of exactly this last game on day 1. Also, we've all been through a day 1 with many question marks last time and to me it seems like this game isn't going to be a lot more clear cut.

Not you too, Xardob.

Now we know it...Xardob is a hipster...he has to be non-conformist, and as soon as everybody does it, he has to reinvent himself.


---

Holy something, Batman...again 7 new replies

He's just courting Pizzadude in hopes that he can get the new guy on his side. 

Dammit, Ninja'd.

Everything else...lol 

 

[Askthepizzaguy]

Still here just got caught up in an interaction with someone irl, so I have not been paying attention.

Will be back soohn-ish. 

 

[Elisianthus]

A 60 percent likelihood to be wolf, that's impressive. Baffling but impressive.

Also like to point out that your 70% lean is roughly rand, according to your own numbers.

Likely innocent =/= rand to me.

Fair. Percentage isn't actually a great metric for it, seeing as the measurement here isn't "Chance to be wolf" but "better or worse than average chance of wolfiness, after rand". There's probably a function for it.

@Kronic:

Giving a wolf read and then stating an out for it right away, not the best start there. Give us something aside an arbitrary number and a comparison to Whoopin on why Pizza is scummy.

**** you, wolfboy. 
In answer to your question though, I touched on it in the prior post, but it's kinda meta. I think the best way I can summarise it without referring to previous games is - I'm a very gut feeling operating wolf hunter. I keep an eye out for things that strike me as wrong, work out likely wolf targets and then hunt for evidence to try to make them swing, rather than the admittedly more common (And occasionally more reliable) method of "Evidence first then suspects". You can not like it, and people often don't, but it's the good old fashioned Kronic method.
Pizza's play of immediately jumping on someone and picking at banal and asinine details was - as wa spointed out - a very Whoopin esque thing to do. It makes my gut twitch. Normally, my response would thusly be "**** that, it's a wolf." Unfortunately, that specific playstyle (Which Whoopin uses, but Frisian and Adaham are both people I've had the same issue with in prior games) is something I have been wrong about on multiple prior occasions. As a result, while I'm not going to dismiss my gut, I'm going to wait for other pointers before I jump down their throat and start trying to choke them.

Is that a joke? I can’t tell.

50/50

I think this thing, but oh hey let me present a way to back out of it. Oh, and I think this other thing, but again there's this way for me to escape my own reasoning. You know what, I'm not going to commit to anything until it's convenient for me to do so. - Kronic

**** you, Wolfboy. 
Glad to know I get the same objections now as I did back then, it means I haven't lost my touch.
In seriousness though, I put my hands up and admit it, I don't have anyone I'm willing to point at and call a wolf just yet. So yes, I'm going to have uncertainty in what I say. And?
When I'm more certain, I can happily turn around and say "**** you, you're a wolf", but I'm not about to arbitrarily decide that someone has reached that level just because you get prissy about me being uncertain. And it's still better than me not naming any suspects at all, so get stuffed mate.

I mean, I'll happily lynch you, Soot and Pizza if you want a shortlist, but it's day one and I'm willing to see how things go. I'm pretty certain I'd get at least one and probably two wolves out of you three. Which, to me, is "acceptable casualties", but not "acceptable risk". I'd like to see more fro Xardob and Adaham, but I admit that this whole "NeoXardobism" trend is throwing me for a loop and I'm struggling in reading it. I suspect it's a strong reason why I don't get to do my "**** you, you're a wolf" post within the first day this time.

 

[Magorian Aximand]

Still here just got caught up in an interaction with someone irl, so I have not been paying attention.

Will be back soohn-ish. 

Were they a wolf?

 

[Adaham]

Hey Kronic, do you feel that that cursing a lot gives your arguments more weight?

I mean, I'm not the one to point fingers when it comes to an angry fit, but wolf hunting for you seems to consist mostly of saying "**** you, wolfboy" whenever somebody doubts your stuff. If I were a nitpick, I'd call that blatant OMGUSing. But luckily I've studied Cicero, so I'm not even gonna go there.

---

Now that I've finally sorted my Avatar, I might be able to focus more on the game. Prepare to have your arses kicked.

 

[Phonemelter]

@Adaham:

Aw man, you totally saw through my plan to get you into a quote war with me, because apparently every time I ask question to someone it means I am tricking them into getting into a long argument, somehow. 

I do want an answer though, not this "omg this is just a ploy!" bull**** to get out of saying anything. Yeah, you did "warn" me to not get into an argument with Soot last game. An argument that helped me (and I think Llandy too, maybe someone else) get a better feel for him. Just because you didn't see any value in it doesn't mean there is no point. As you know by this point I like running my own investigating, as I tried to explain to Eternal in the TT game (I think).

Yes, the opening LoS was fabricated because it is what I felt like doing for my opening joke post, much like the stupid "here are 10 reasons to vote for Xardob" lists I have done in the past - meaningless and purely to check in.

 

[Phonemelter]

But luckily I've studied Cicero, so I'm not even gonna go there.

I still remember the first Cicero I ever read... "Saepe et multum hoc mecum cogitavi, bonine an mali plus attulerit hominibus et civitatibus copia dicendi ac summum eloquentiae studium". Good times, good times.

 

[Magorian Aximand]

Oy, Kroni****er (), there's a difference with being uncertain, and making arguments before presenting a reason for you to drop them if they become inconvenient. One is prudential, the other is a tactic. Guess which one your posts demonstrate? Can you guess what the typical wolf response is to being called out on it?

 

[Pharaoh Llandy]

Pizza's play of immediately jumping on someone and picking at banal and asinine details was - as wa spointed out - a very Whoopin esque thing to do. It makes my gut twitch.

Eh? Did you actually read Pizzaguy's posts? I don't agree with his conclusions (and even some of his arguments) but he's at least poking in the right places and in the right ways. The feel I get for Whoopin (regardless of his alignment) is that he usually starts off trying to eliminate the biggest threats to himself (pushing for lynches on those threats when he's innocent, and lunching those threats when he's scum).

The feel I get from Pizzaguy is completely different, and I think his poking at Melter stems more from the fact that Melter was (I'm guessing) the only one online at the time and capable/willing to "real time" post with another player, not from any concerted effort to focus solely on particular players because they are a threat to him. This is one of the reasons I need to see Pizzaguy interacting with a wider range of players both in "real time" and "past time", because such interactions will be more indicative of his play style.

 

[Adaham]

Listen, I never claimed that there was all that much to it. I already said it's a vibe I'm getting, nothing less, nothing more. You should know by now that I'm not gonna go into great detail about it, as I think that most of what can be said is totally made up at this stage.

Why so pissy already? I never said you can't do your own investigation. And also I don't forbid you anything. Maybe the stuff last game helped you to catch Soot in the end. That being said, you should be happy I'm not making a long ass case about anything yet, as usually I'm wrong when I'm trying to derive something from in-game interactions (as you could clearly see last game).

If you want to know one example (off the top of my head) of where I agree with Pizza, then it's for instance the bit about the condescending sound. I know you don't mean it, but I can see why he feels it came across as such. Again, as I said, it's not something I'm basing my case upon against you, but I can definitely not see that Pizza was twisting stuff to make you look bad.

I still remember the first Cicero I ever read... "Saepe et multum hoc mecum cogitavi, bonine an mali plus attulerit hominibus et civitatibus copia dicendi ac summum eloquentiae studium". Good times, good times.

Et tu, conflans?

 

[Askthepizzaguy]

I’m confused about this. I know that you’ve voted Melter by now, but at the time you said you were thinking of voting No Lynch, we were only a few hours into the day. Did you mean to imply that you were reserving your lynch vote until you found a worthy place to put it (in which case, why would you need to vote No Lynch, why not just remain unvoted) or did you mean to imply that you were going to purposely vote No Lynch to end the day with no lynch at all? In which case, why on earth would you write off the day at such an early stage?

I often find Day One to be a day where a villager gets lynched and we've got a seer and we've not got that many people in the game.

In this rare situation, No Lynch is plausible.

I oppose No Lynch in 99% of cases. In fact, for a while, it was a wolf tell of mine to advocate No Lynching because it just reads as saccharine sickeningly sweet namby-pamby I'm-more-villagery-than-you goody goody no-risk taking nonsense.

Hence why I dropped that habit from my wolf meta entirely. No one reads you villagery for it, ever. And it is usually the wrong decision. You get more info from pressuring wolves.

It's only that we are in a better information position with a live village power with a live read tomorrow, and the first villager dead by murder might have told us something.

If no one acted scummy today at all I'd still be advocating No Lynch.

Now? With at least two strong scum reads? Would be ridiculous.

You don’t have to worry about ending the day early by voting No Lynch. I don’t know how you do it on your forum but here you still need the majority for a No Lynch, and nobody in their right mind (since MaHuD is hosting and not playing ) is going to end this day early. In fact, No Lynches are almost always frowned upon here, and given how much heat some players have taken (Moss, in Black Death) for even contemplating a no-lynch I am very surprised that nobody has even batted an eyelid at this comment.

I would scum read someone for advocating No Lynch here, but I believe my point above stands. This is a tiny game with a cop, and it is possible that other roles exist to supplement that. As such, a mislynch could be disastrous instead of merely bad.

But playing based on that fear is not how I locate wolves. Gotta remember that powers are icing on the cake and that a properly made, moist, villager cake, requires no icing to be the most delicious dessert on the menu. And everyone should not back off of their vanillager game which is cold read based villager and wolf leans, just because the threat exists of a villager power mislynch. It's weak play.

Another reason why I find players who do vanillager games stronger in general than ones that rely on village powers. Such powers are a handicap whenever they don't exist, meanwhile I thrive without them.

If you were, at the time, seriously considering a No Lynch, what did you hope would be gained from it?

See above.

You think Vieira is a possible wolf because he mused about the host not-capitalising somebody’s name? Vieira didn’t in any way follow up on this or try to press the matter to suggest some sort of meta-scumminess, so what, specifically, makes you think he is wolfy because of that?

I do not believe that comment originated from an honest part of a villager's mind, and it did not read as a joke.

Therefore it felt like a wolf just making **** up because that's what wolves do to emulate villagers.

There is no need to forcefully try to push or press the matter, it's just bad acting.

If someone said, verbally and unconvincingly, "ahhhhh.... shhhhhoooo", and it didn't sound at all like a sneeze, I'd call it a lie and not a real sneeze, and wonder if they had ever sneezed before. If Earth were being taken over by shapeshifters, I might shoot someone in the face for doing something so natural, so poorly. That's kind of all I need to find a wolf- terrible, unconvincing acting.

Just sneeze improperly at me, and I'll look at you with lynching eyes.

There doesn't need to be a motive or any advantage possible from the move. If it's just a poor, unconvincing move, it's likely a wolf.

Please feel free to elaborate on your posts which you think I am misunderstanding. I do not want my questions/posts towards you to be written off as “Oh, you’re just misunderstanding.” If you think I’m misunderstanding something, I would appreciate it if you elaborated to clarify. Then there will be less misunderstanding.

Certainly. But let me break this post up before it becomes a wall. A real wall, a pizzaguy wall. This is barely a stack of matchbooks.

 

[Phonemelter]

Again, as I said, it's not something I'm basing my case upon against you, but I can definitely not see that Pizza was twisting stuff to make you look bad.

Okay, I'll pull up some quotes then to explain my position once I go to the cafe.

Et tu, conflans?

 

[Askthepizzaguy]

I mean, I'll happily lynch you, Soot and Pizza if you want a shortlist, but it's day one and I'm willing to see how things go. I'm pretty certain I'd get at least one and probably two wolves out of you three. Which, to me, is "acceptable casualties", but not "acceptable risk". I'd like to see more fro Xardob and Adaham, but I admit that this whole "NeoXardobism" trend is throwing me for a loop and I'm struggling in reading it. I suspect it's a strong reason why I don't get to do my "**** you, you're a wolf" post within the first day this time.

I am opposed to lynching Soot right now. Call it a brief update.

Not sure I've swung back to a villager lean on Soot, but I am now quite hesitant. And I don't like you trying to lynch Mags or myself either.

We've got to get on the same page or there's going to be issues for this village down the line.

I still don't read you wolf, but this is very concerning. We don't have to agree on suspects but you're now suspecting everyone I don't want to lynch and I don't want to lynch you in response, but.... divided villages get mislynches.

 

[Askthepizzaguy]

Still here just got caught up in an interaction with someone irl, so I have not been paying attention.

Will be back soohn-ish. 

Were they a wolf?

No, she is decidedly un-furry, beautiful, and makes my heart skip a beat, and my body skip over an ocean to go see her... soohn.