[Werewolf] SMAC: Unity [Game ends!]

[Askthepizzaguy]

Yeah, it was a real shame we didn't get to spend more fun time last game, but we'll hopefully change that this time around.

I will be rather busy this week or my lengthy online presence will be unexpected and difficult to anticipate, however if you have a usual timestamp you check in, let me know and I'll make every effort as before.

Asking you...there's an idea....what do you think of Frisiandude so far.

Got that slight villager lean based on cold reading him, cited the post where it happened, reply 39. But it's basically one post and one weak read. This lean is subject to strengthening based on more posts or reversing hard depending on content which there hasn't been much of from Frisian yet.

He's one (together with Elisiamesethus) of the people that took a bit of a stance against you after your interaction with Phoney, and I find that most interesting. As a matter of fact, I can understand people being torn. You see, we're all hampered by our own meta-knowledge, so there's a lot of stuff we chalk up as "typical behavior" of X. You have a fresh approach and people should be appreciating it.

I could also be speaking out of my own butt. People trust their own reads more than those of an unknown quantity.

I will tell you what, I was able to scum read all of the wolves in the Champs game on Day Two, I just couldn't fit them together in the same team. I have a fairly decent record of meta-free reading in new environments, particularly since I forum-hop often.

Some things are just wolfy, regardless of who is doing it. I tend to rely on such tells until I develop specific player meta, which would be exceptions to the rule and counter-indicate when it would otherwise be a tell.

I am looking for villager tells however. I have yet to see any from Phone and given the amount of stuff he's posted in real time, that's profoundly worrisome.

Instead, they're almost automatically siding with Phoney...just because they know him longer? Because as it stands, all the things you accuse him of make a lot of sense.

I can make a lot of sense and still be incorrect, I don't know how automatic their siding with Phone is, but I trust you to be able to tell if it's a snap judgment that is otherwise out of character for these players.

Now I can see that we can partially explain some of his erratic behavior through meta, but how this can make people lean towards "likely innocent" or such of Phoney, leaves me a bit baffled. So, while you might have been holding back on commenting on those people (because I assume you're waiting for more reactions), I'd be interested to know your take of Eliwhatever and Frisiandude.

Ellisiantus I have as firmly neutral, I need more. We have differing approaches and tells in my opinion, so it will take a while to determine his villageriness. I have to find his thought process and determine if it is honest first. Right now I am more puzzled but not leaning wolfy.

Frisian has given me no reason to doubt the very mild villager lean I have.

Tell you something? Well, there's the explanation of "Neoxardobism". As all awesome things on this forum, I came up with the term.

Ha ha ha ha ha....

I believe you did come up with a lot of the awesome things on this forum, yes. And I find your swagger to be intoxicating. 

It basically means giving up your former wordy playstyle and become an awesome don't-give-a-****-wolf-hunting-machine. Xardob did so a long time ago and has regained a lot of fun in WW since then. I followed suit a few games ago and coined the term. Now all the cool kids are doing it...and eh voila...last game was pretty awesome.

Would be hard to break the habit but I can see that most people are not concerned with showing your work.

I'm too open-notebook, plus what ego I do have likes to be able to be right and be publicly right so I can reference my rightness postgame and in future games, and allow others to see the thought process and steal it.

What else? Llandy is a girl.

Noted.

Have you got anything you'd like to discuss?

Think think.

Do you concur wholeheartedly with my strong villager lean of Mags? If so, why, if not, why.

 

[Askthepizzaguy]

They're still not fangs. They're needles, at most.

GAH, I hate needles. Away with you. Bad dog.

 

[Askthepizzaguy]

Xardog, that's perfect. There's literally zero chance I thought that up first but it's still what I'm going to call Xar going forward, unless it irritates him.

Xar, my dawg.

 

[Xardob]

You're actually the first, which is surprising because it's such an obvious thing. Feel free to call me however you like. After some time with Melter, you have to get used to being called by the wrong name.

I have a question for you. How many suspects are you working with?

 

[Askthepizzaguy]

You're actually the first, which is surprising because it's such an obvious thing. Feel free to call me however you like. After some time with Melter, you have to get used to being called by the wrong name.

I have a question for you. How many suspects are you working with?

Officially, everyone but me is a suspect on my suspect page.

But I won't even call neutral leans a suspect, any more than literally everyone is a suspect when a police investigation first begins.

Actual suspects are right now limited to Phone by miles and miles, then Vieira, then Sootshade much further back.

 

[FrisianDude]

Adahamster actually raises a valid point in that I might be inclined to defend someone I know a little better.

Though I have to say, I don't really consider my post to be defending.

Xardog, that's perfect. There's literally zero chance I thought that up first but it's still what I'm going to call Xar going forward, unless it irritates him.

Xar, my dawg.

  He's been called worse. Mostly because of Phonemelter's melted phone's drunken autocorrect.

Though I am basically always inactive (sorrrrryyyy) I try not to be, but in this case I was partially less-than-super-active because I've rarely seen anyone so enthousiastic on first days. I have to admit that it'll take me a bit of time to understand your way of phrasing, but kudos so far for doing the work.


was going to add more but been dragged into schoolthings

 

[Xardob]

Pizza, what I meant is how many wolves you're expecting. How many suspects you'd consider having before thinking you have too many and some of them must be innocents.

 

[Askthepizzaguy]

Adahamster actually raises a valid point in that I might be inclined to defend someone I know a little better.

Though I have to say, I don't really consider my post to be defending.

I didn't get that impression either. I thought you were just implying my attacking of Phone might have been too big for my own britches, but that doesn't necessarily imply that Phone is a villager.

 

[Askthepizzaguy]

Pizza, what I meant is how many wolves you're expecting. How many suspects you'd consider having before thinking you have too many and some of them must be innocents.

I don't know your site meta and game setup questions were only answered very vaguely.

If I were to design a game of this size, 2-3 wolves is balanced, depending what powers village has.

4 would be incredibly difficult even with village powers unless they basically nab a wolf immediately. I hate games that are at must lynch almost immediately and think they aren't really werewolf.

My native site, a balanced setup was 2 scums and 38 regular villagers. You'd be amazed how balanced that is.

The volume of villagers actually handicaps the village, makes it easier to hide as scum, the small size of the team makes interactions almost impossible to find, and allows the scums to brain drain the village over time much more easily. The remaining villagers at the end are almost always the single worst villagers or most inactive ones, making capping the wolves in a 7 man endgame wildly more difficult than if the game had began much smaller.

 

[Askthepizzaguy]

I'd also say I can have more suspects than wolves, if villagers play poorly enough.

 

[Adaham]

I will be rather busy this week or my lengthy online presence will be unexpected and difficult to anticipate, however if you have a usual timestamp you check in, let me know and I'll make every effort as before.

Hard to tell, to be honest. Right now I'm online a lot during day-time (central European day-time, that is), but can't promise exact times as a) I have work to do, and b) I have a wife that will tolerate my WW addiction only to a certain extend. Saturday I'm gone for most of the day and starting on monday I'll be 8 days on the road in Scotland, with brief possibilities to read up/post in the evenings. As I said, my contributions will be scarce during that period.

I could also be speaking out of my own butt. People trust their own reads more than those of an unknown quantity.

You sure could and by no means do I expect anybody to take your word as the gospel. But I, for one, find it refreshing to see how new players look at things, just because I can boil it down to either an honest impression, or lying. With players that know each other a long time, there's so much meta around, it stifles the game. Basically the reason why Xardob and I barely ever interact more than the idle banter you've seen now.

I will tell you what, I was able to scum read all of the wolves in the Champs game on Day Two, I just couldn't fit them together in the same team. I have a fairly decent record of meta-free reading in new environments, particularly since I forum-hop often.

I believe so. In a way, I think forum-hopping and playing with a different bunch makes it easier to read people. That's again why I think it's good to have your input. And while I do run a meta-check on your impressions, we definitely shouldn't dismiss them as "ah, it's just Phoney" or something like that.

Basically I'm holding a bit back on this decision yet, because I'm still torn between your remarks, and my own meta knowledge.

I am looking for villager tells however. I have yet to see any from Phone and given the amount of stuff he's posted in real time, that's profoundly worrisome.

That's a good point. There's some things, that I found rather typical for him, but there's a lack of a vibe that makes him come across as innocent to me. Last game he had changed his style somewhat and I was pretty sure of his innocence for most of the game. But this time, right off the bat (especially since his LoS), he doesn't feel quite right. The fact that he gets in a losing argument with you is less of an issue for me (because he always does), but the fact he's trying to emulate his interpretation of Neoxardobism from last game is.

I can make a lot of sense and still be incorrect, I don't know how automatic their siding with Phone is, but I trust you to be able to tell if it's a snap judgment that is otherwise out of character for these players.

I haven't played with the book of Eli in a long time, but Frisian is always very short and doesn't contribute a lot in general. Him defending somebody is not quite atypical, but it should also be noted that the last time he played he was a villain and showcased similar behavior. So yeah, the jury's still out on this one...

I believe you did come up with a lot of the awesome things on this forum, yes. And I find your swagger to be intoxicating. 

That's part of the neoxardobist revolution, you know...

Would be hard to break the habit but I can see that most people are not concerned with showing your work.

I'm too open-notebook, plus what ego I do have likes to be able to be right and be publicly right so I can reference my rightness postgame and in future games, and allow others to see the thought process and steal it.

Many of us, I think, when they get into it at first start playing the open-notebook style. But since most people on here have been playing with each other for years, we're streamlining the process a bit more. Not everybody does so, but most seem to appreciate the "cutting of the crap". In a way, we save the big explanatory posts for later on, when we have real data and make real conclusions, rather than buying a lottery ticket on day 1 and telling the world which numbers we picked.

Not that I think there's something bad with the way you do it. Since your style is new to us, it is refreshing. Once we've played 5 games with you, probably we'll ask you to cut to the chase as well 

What else? Llandy is a girl.

Noted.

And don't forget the misunderstandings bit 

Do you concur wholeheartedly with my strong villager lean of Mags? If so, why, if not, why.

Hm...I've got a bit of a villager lean, not quite as strong as you, though. I find it a bit too early to write him off, but that's probably because I consider him to be one of the guys that I need to read for a longer time before I know for sure.

Actually, I'll have to read back and see what my impressions are. I'll get back to you on that. But first I need to get my wife to the train station.

---

Holy spam, Batman...7 new replies

 

[Troll]

@Pizza:

'Neoxardobism' is in reference to, big surprise, Xardob's style. It involves not giving any ****s and generally being quite brief with your posts - which matches Magorian's play. What his play is lacking however is actually taking a stance on anything and committing to arguments, as he seems to rather prefer sowing seeds of discussion but not being directly involved, which can be a very useful style for a wolves, allowing them to pursue the issue later if others catch on, but not really limiting their options.

Face is notorious in getting into ridiculously lengthy arguments full of misunderstandings on his side, which commonly leads to his opposition in the argument finding him very dishonest. This happens just as, if not more, often when he's innocent, and often ends up being a giant ****ing distraction. You've experienced it first hand now, but by my estimation this is very tame for him, and he's more likely being honest here. I can't say that I have a particularly good record on reading his role, but I do have some experience in reading through his quote wars.

Thus far you are my strongest village read. I have not seen anything dishonest, and your attempts at hunting seem genuine.

As much as I'm used to going through Face's arguments step by step and pointing out reasons for all the understandings, it's not something I particularly delight in. But since you asked nicely, I'll get on it at some point. In the meantime, I don't mind if you do keep at it with him, seeing as you can make judgements without all the meta baggage I have on him.

I can promise you that you won't be finding me cautious as the game goes on. I just haven't found a person to tunnel on just yet.

@Kronic:

Giving a wolf read and then stating an out for it right away, not the best start there. Give us something aside an arbitrary number and a comparison to Whoopin on why Pizza is scummy.



Oh dear. I don't know if I was quite ready for this level of activity after the last couple of games.

 

[Pharaoh Llandy]

@Vieira

We don't need to start with a joke vote, do we?

You should know by now that a joke vote isn't required.

That's a possibility, but I think he'd be too drunk to think up something that well thought out. But that is just the tip of the Drunk WIFOM iceberg.

Melter is actually very capable of being a cunning bugger even when he's really drunk. I wouldn't follow that WIFOM too far if I were you.



@Magorian

Wolf tells are things that exist. The only argument you can possibly make is whether or not a specific action constitutes a wolf tell.

I don’t really want to rehash old arguments with you, but I just wanted to say, yes, wolf tells exist. But as was made painfully clear during the Dwarfcraft game, innocents make wolf tells too. There is no tell which is 100% indicative of scum. So the whether a specific action is not the “only” argument you can make; you also need to address whether you think the person making that action is a wolf, and why.

Is anyone else reminded of Xardob's wolf tactic of "I assume everyone is a wolf by default" when reading Phoney's post?

No, it was an obvious joke.



@Kronic

Having quickly glanced through the current posts (I'll have a better read when I'm not cooking dinner), I can conclude that Soot and Mags are packies.

Is that a joke? I can’t tell.



@Pizzaguy

For now, I am strongly considering to vote No Lynch. However given the simple majority rules, I'd prefer to use the time, so I will not officially vote No lynch yet. I do not want such an option to end day sooner than necessary.

I’m confused about this. I know that you’ve voted Melter by now, but at the time you said you were thinking of voting No Lynch, we were only a few hours into the day. Did you mean to imply that you were reserving your lynch vote until you found a worthy place to put it (in which case, why would you need to vote No Lynch, why not just remain unvoted) or did you mean to imply that you were going to purposely vote No Lynch to end the day with no lynch at all? In which case, why on earth would you write off the day at such an early stage?

You don’t have to worry about ending the day early by voting No Lynch. I don’t know how you do it on your forum but here you still need the majority for a No Lynch, and nobody in their right mind (since MaHuD is hosting and not playing ) is going to end this day early. In fact, No Lynches are almost always frowned upon here, and given how much heat some players have taken (Moss, in Black Death) for even contemplating a no-lynch I am very surprised that nobody has even batted an eyelid at this comment.

If you were, at the time, seriously considering a No Lynch, what did you hope would be gained from it?

First thing I noticed in the OP too. I wonder if there is a reason that Hawk isn't capitalised (shh, Mag).

I do not believe that you believe this. I do not see a reason for you to lie about such a belief as a villager, so therefore you have possibly outed yourself as a wolf.

You think Vieira is a possible wolf because he mused about the host not-capitalising somebody’s name? Vieira didn’t in any way follow up on this or try to press the matter to suggest some sort of meta-scumminess, so what, specifically, makes you think he is wolfy because of that?

You and I appear to be talking past each other- this wouldn't be the first post of mine you've almost entirely misunderstood.

Please feel free to elaborate on your posts which you think I am misunderstanding. I do not want my questions/posts towards you to be written off as “Oh, you’re just misunderstanding.” If you think I’m misunderstanding something, I would appreciate it if you elaborated to clarify. Then there will be less misunderstanding.



@Melter

2. Vieira';s qyestion does seem silly, but iirc his TT opener was equally silly, so I am not sure if it means are much as others believe atm. Not sayin he is innocent, but I do not think it is worth reading into (though his response ot a question Xardob asked may be inidicatve of packers)

In fact, Vieira’s opening post in TT was almost exactly the same. I think we spent a couple of posts in the Spammaster QT remarking on the oddness of his question.

5. Why should what Llandy sees as wolft be the same as what you see as wolfy?

I, too, would like an answer for this.



@Adaham

And I totally expect to receive a medal for luring pizza onto this forum 

You didn’t lure him, he stalked you back here. You don’t get the kudos for that, Pizzaguy does

Alright, let's lynch Vieira before he buggers off to vacuum his room and never come back.

After that we lynch Soot, because he's toying with me again.

Why waste a lynch on Soot? If he’s innocent he’ll be dead by Day 3

What else? Llandy is a girl. And despite all of our initial doubts, there seems to be proof for that. Get used to lots of misunderstandings 

There’s no such thing as girls on the internet. Everybody knows that.



@Soot

Face: I'm impressed by how he avoided full on misunderstandings this time around - maybe a consequence of adapting a more readable format for his quote wars?

I disagree, I find these quote wars less readable because they don't contain many quotes and thus need the reader to go back and reference the posts in question. Which I find annoying because I am lazy. I definitely preferred his old way of quote warring.

Llandy: I was happy to see a third player really interject into the Pizza/Face argument, but then I realized that Llandy did so only to argue her preferences. I know she likes to do that, and I know she doesn't like to make quick conclusions, but I would have thought she could make at least some kind of read on either of them based on the topic being discussed.

I will tell you my reads when I am good and ready. I made the mistake last game (and admittedly, in Black Death) of getting too tunnelled on players too early. On Day 2 in the last game I realised I’m much more useful when I take a step back and re-evaluate my initial assumptions and ask questions from a less emotional place.

But since you wanted an initial read, I’ve already said what I think about Melter (drunk posting and giving zero indication of his alignment either way). The one thing that got my back up about Pizzaguy was the same thing that triggered my paranoia alarm in the last game with Delta; I was singled out. Delta “ditto”d my vote on Adaham for no reason that I could get my head around. And now Pizzaguy would have “preferred” my opening vote to be on somebody more wolfy but makes little or no comment about other peoples’ opening votes. With Delta, I made the mistake of letting my paranoia see scum motives in everything she posted, and I’m trying not to make that mistake again.



Cutting this off here as it’s a bit long and I want to get a drink (OF ICED TEA, ADAHAM, THANK YOU VERY MUCH )

 

[Adaham]

Oh @ pizza:

My fellow players are impolite enough to refer to each other at times in their former usernames. Kronic = Elisianthus. Probably you guessed, but better safe than sorry.

Re: Magorian strong village read...

If I was mean, I could say you agree with Magorian because he had poked Vieira and Phoney early on, and thus matches your own suspicions.

That being said, I do share his opinions as well and on re-reading, I do find them to be rather honest. Not taking any WIFOM into account, he probably is the most honest hunter - aside from yourself - so far.

Or the two of you are wolves 

---

Holy Ankh, Batman...one new post, but it's a wall from Llandy

 

[FrisianDude]

Adahamster actually raises a valid point in that I might be inclined to defend someone I know a little better.

Though I have to say, I don't really consider my post to be defending.

I didn't get that impression either. I thought you were just implying my attacking of Phone might have been too big for my own britches, but that doesn't necessarily imply that Phone is a villager.

Oh noo that wasn't my intended implication either.

 

[Magorian Aximand]

Kronic, I thought, was making a clear joke post. You, on the other hand, seem to think he was being completely serious with his conclusion tthat Soot and Mag (or whatever it was) are packies. That is why I was "correcting" you - I think you read of it, unless otherwise corrected, was wrong and that you were thinking about it the wrong way.

In fairness, it's only half jokey. I fully expect one or both of them to be wolves. Although, I could claim that for anyone in the game and have probably a 18 or 27% ish chance of being correct, so take that for what it's worth. As for the Face/Pizza interaction, my opinion is as such: gut says Face is innocent and Pizza if wolfy however Pizza does indeed play a lot like Whoopin, and I tend to find the hyper picky stuff to come across as wolfy and in Whoopins case I was always wrong. The self analysis in that is kinda close to metagamey, I feel, so I'm not going to try to explore it too deeply in writing, but I feel that Face is likely innocent and Pizza is Neutral, with wolfish tendencies. I'll be keeping more of an eye of him as the game goes on.

Remember kids, about 60% of the time, I'm right 100% of the time!

I think this thing, but oh hey let me present a way to back out of it. Oh, and I think this other thing, but again there's this way for me to escape my own reasoning. You know what, I'm not going to commit to anything until it's convenient for me to do so. - Kronic



I actually had good vibes from Face during that conversation with Pizza. He didn't allow the conversation to become too tangential.

Hawk is unusually quiet. Actually trying to survive this time, are we? That must be a wolfish change in play. We should lynch him right away. ... yeah, that's the reasoning we'll go with here.

Fris is looking okay so far.



I can't believe how quick and easy that post was to put together. Man, I'm liking this...

 

[Phonemelter]

@Adaham:

There's some things, that I found rather typical for him, but there's a lack of a vibe that makes him come across as innocent to me. Last game he had changed his style somewhat and I was pretty sure of his innocence for most of the game. But this time, right off the bat (especially since his LoS), he doesn't feel quite right. The fact that he gets in a losing argument with you is less of an issue for me (because he always does), but the fact he's trying to emulate his interpretation of Neoxardobism from last game is.

Losing argument? I assume this means are think Pizzadude's problems with me are legit - which points do you agree with? Do you not agree with me that his avoidance of some questions (which he claims he is not answering because my drunkeness was all just a smokescreen for me being wolfy), selective interpretation of suspicion (game theory is apparently only relevant when it favours him), and clear incorrect characterization of a few points I made (i.e. those classically wolfy "arguments," which were not, in fact, arguments for him being wolfy)?

I'm also not trying to emulate any style of "Neoxardobism." Last game was an attempt to address problems that people have been having with me recently, i.e. getting into hard-to-read quote-wars, spamming, making posts a pain to read, etc., so I changed my style a bit to accommodate.

 

[Xardob]

I hate you all. Having all these good and lengthy posts while all I can do is watch from my phone. I may have a relapse and WoT you all to death once I'm home.

 

[Troll]

Mag's new post seems more legit to me.

Adaham's posts are much less interesting to read when they are filled with tiny quotes.

Both of the above apply to Llandy.

I'm actually not getting a particularly innocent vibe from Adaham yet, and I do feel like the focus on wolf hunting is missing this time around. Don't know if it's because he actually is hard to get a read on without knowing his role beforehand, or if he's actually scum.



Not you too, Xardob.

 

[Magorian Aximand]

I hate you all. Having all these good and lengthy posts while all I can do is watch from my phone. I may have a relapse and WoT you all to death once I'm home.