[Werewolf] SMAC: Unity [Game ends!]

[Magorian Aximand]

Are you going to ask me to do the same with you next? 

If you'd like, but I was mostly just looking for confirmation that we're seeing the same things. Because you said I was being silly, but I'm pointing out those exact same behaviors. It's fuel for your fire bro.

 

[Phonemelter]

I didn't say your arguments were silly; I said you were being silly. 

 

[Magorian Aximand]

 

[Magorian Aximand]

Yeah, and I can't remember what I was going to do. 

I think I was going to place a vote on Mags at the time, but there's been stuff happening since and I don't feel informed enough on recent activity to place the vote right now.

Get informed quickly! We still haven't even fleshed out our discussion on Xardob's interpretation of Hawk's post.

 

[Magorian Aximand]

Three way tie between Soot, Magorian, and Pizza for 1st place with two votes each!

If you switch back to your top target, he'll have the most votes and be halfway to a lynch.

Also, I know Adaham has been busy and absent for a number of days, but that chart sure makes it look like he's engaged in some serious vote parking. I'll be very interested to see what he does upon his return.

 

[Phonemelter]

@Everyone:

What do you think of these Pharaoh-Pizza interactions?

Pharaoh X Llandy:

I have Soot as villagery.

I have you as my top 2 villager. If I were to flip one blue read to a red, it would be as a personal favor to you.

I don't think we should lynch there today. But if I cannot get Magorian or Hawk lynched, I will assist you, simply because at that point, either town simply refuses to lynch wolves, or I am having a really really bad day one and I'd rather help my top 2 townread lynch someone I don't have as deep blue.

I am his #1 villager, but he refuses to listen to me and instead decides to trust Llandy to lynch someone he considered innocent at the time?

Next post he says Soot is two minds about many things (in reference to his LoS entry on Pizza), but concludes that it is "a villagery thing" as Llandy pointed out. However, he later goes on to say "SootShade hanging back and equivocating makes three [wolves]." What? Unless he meant "Llandy pointing the equivocation out" is an innocent thing, has he looked at her LoS entry on him? It was even more neutral than Soot's at the time.

Combined with this strange comment on her early on...

4. Why qould you have preferreed something different from Llandy, specifically? Having no ties to anyone in this game (aside from Adaham), you shoudl have no reaosn to expext anything from anyone in particularl...

I would have liked to see a vote on someone more wolfy.

...and how Llandy has not taken much of a stance on what she has thought of Pizza since her LoS despite interacting with him a lot (maybe for fear that if she says anything about him being suspicious could backfire since it may get him lynched, or considering him "too innocent" would be suspicious on her part) sounds like packie-play to me. I know looking for interactions like this on Day 1 normally doesn't end well, but the interactions between these two are not giving me good vibes.

Am I crazy?

 

[Pharaoh Llandy]

I think Llandy is being overly careful because the last new player she tunnelled on turned out to be innocent, self-voted and has not been seen since

Knowing Llandy as I do, I think she's trying to give Pizzaguy the benefit of the doubt, but I also think she might be reserving her full judgement for later, because she would like to see how things go during the Day 1 voting and on Day 2.

That's just what I think anyway, and of course it's heavily based in meta of what I know of Llandy's play.

 

[Pharaoh Llandy]

Um, Melter, you realise that when Pizza was saying "it is a villagery thing" he is not talking about Soot's post, but me pointing out the discrepancies in Soot's post is a villagery thing.

Right?

You do know that?

 

[Magorian Aximand]

It's especially strange, from Pizza's perspective, considering his top villager (you) also is willing to vote for his top wolf (me). Others haven't been enthusiastic about voting for me, but they've considered it.

Llandy on the other hand could just be having trouble pegging Pizza as a wolf. I still want to see how she replies in our conversation on the matter, but on many points she's defended me against him and even gone so far as to say that she wants to wait and see how I play, rather than lynch me. That doesn't sound like packy support.

 

[Phonemelter]

@Llandy:

That is why I gave an alternate reading of it in case one way was wrong. I personally feel that Mag and Soot have pointed out discrepancies in peoples posting as well, but he has turned a blind eye to it for whatever reason.

 

[Pharaoh Llandy]

What do you think of the last post I made, detailing Soot's LoS on Pizzaguy? Consider that Pizza and Mag have now seen evidence of what I am talking about, as has Vieira. Do you see it too?

@Magorian

I'll be responding to you (and Pizzaguy) after I've finished my dinner + Star Trek.

@Vieira

You mentioned you had an opinion on Pizzaguy's innocent special read on Eli, but that you wanted to see Xardob's answer first. Well, Xardob has answered. Do you care to chip in now?

 

[Magorian Aximand]

Enjoy! Which Trek?

 

[Phonemelter]

I can see what you were saying, but it's such a drastic departure from my recent Soot wolf meta that it is not as alarming to me as it is you. Ignoring meta, if most of his suspicions were that way them I would be onboard, but being unsure of a new guy (as you are) is not that odd to me. I know I write "could, might, on the other hand, etc." a lot as innocent because more uncertainty exists, so while There might be a few parts you pointed out that seem to contradict one another, I can follow his thoughts just fine and do not think it necessarily equates to Wolfe thinking.

 

[Pharaoh Llandy]

Enjoy! Which Trek?

Voyager. I have everything else except Voy and ToS on DVD, so I try to catch Voyager on TV whenever I get the chance. I haven't seen any of this since its original run, so it's almost like watching it from new again.

@Melter - then it would seem you are not a potential vote for my Soot wagon. A pity. If he escapes lynch today, keep an eye on him tomorrow.

 

[Phonemelter]

I will. I just find it funny that you are so adamant about lynching a player you normally want to wait on because "he is one of the best innocents."

 

[Pharaoh Llandy]

I player who I underestimated in the last game, whom I gave the benefit of the doubt because I thought his willingness to lynch both me and Eternal was the result of being a confused innocent, whom I failed to recognise as being the wolf pushing both Eternal's wagon AND mine, and whose behavior -- which is so similar to me in this game that I don't know why anybody else can't see it -- I wrote off as innocent because I thought he was hunting when in fact he was playing innocents against each other and providing cover for his packmate.

I make mistakes. I try not to make the same mistakes twice.

 

[Phonemelter]

Then why not wait until tomorrow? You know that if he is innocent, there is a good chance he'll be eaten. 

 

[Pharaoh Llandy]

Then why not wait until tomorrow? You know that if he is innocent, there is a good chance he'll be eaten. 

Because if he is not innocent, I may not get the chance tomorrow.

What else would you have me do? Ignore my desire to lynch a wolf and "settle" for somebody I consider less scummy? The only person I would consider settling on right now is Eli, and in his case I would rather see him replaced than potentially waste a lynch.

 

[Pharaoh Llandy]

隐藏

Llandy time:

Edit: Except it wasn't "lol no". It was joking, as should be abundantly clear from the fact that I literally explained what was actually going on in the very same post.

It was not abundantly clear. Your 'I need to WoT' was in relation to Soot's comment about his read on Xardob getting stronger innocent, not to Pizza's request for clarification/threat of vote. "Abundantly clear" would have been "busy now but I'll get back to you soon" or some sort of declaration of intent to answer at some point. I can't see anything that obviously strikes me as that. The closest thing would be your admittedly incomplete LoS which does not appear to be in response to Pizzaguy's post and which misses a player off its list.

There's three important points to this conversation that I'd like to keep clear.

1) Am I guilty of hiding behind Neoxardobism to avoid answering questions?
2) Is it possible that my response could have been viewed as avoiding answering questions?
3) Is Pizza's actual behavior more relatable or excusable in light of the answer to question 2?

These are separate subjects, and each is worth exploring. I don't want any to fall by the wayside. So:

1. 1) Am I guilty of hiding behind Neoxardobism to avoid answering questions? I think we can now clearly agree that the answer to this question is no. You expressed relief that I'm "not actually playing neoxardob style", and I'm pretty sure that means you understand that I'm not going to be avoiding anything. Coupled with the revelation that I was being humorous, this should be clear. Can we agree that I can't be reasonably accused of this?

2. 2) Is it possible that my response could have been viewed as avoiding answering questions? Well, rather clearly yes. Because you did read it that way. QED. It's possible, but I have to maintain that I don't think it rather reasonable. Yes, the part of the post where I said that I didn't have time and would WoT soon was in response to Soot, but it has to be remembered that Soot was inquiring about one of the very one liners Pizza was seeking explanation for. If I'm answering Soot, I'm answering Pizza. And if I don't have time to answer Soot, I don't have time to answer Pizza. I would have hoped "my cheesy friend" conveyed humor, but I guess a smiley could have been added. In any case, the mythbusters can stamp this one plausible, but I sincerely hope my post is better understood now.

3. 3) Is Pizza's actual behavior more relatable or excusable in light of the answer to question 2? Well, if Pizza's behavior was reducible to a reciprocal attitude to answering specific questions asked by me, then that would be a yes. But that's why I've made sure to include the word "actual" in that question. Because his behavior does not reflect that at all. He's not just refusing to answer my questions, and he's not just considering arguments against him to be wolfy and not worth his time. And he's not just doing this to me. This behavior predates my post that we've looked at here.

Pizza has outright claimed that my counterarguments don't even exist. Is that the same thing as not answering questions? When I implored him to read just a portion of my LoS after a brief explanation to demonstrate that I did provide reasons for my more innocent reads, I was completely ignored. Is that avoiding wolfy accusations? That's not even an accusation. That's an attempt at clarification.

And as I've mentioned, I'm not alone in this. The other player Pizza has placed a moratorium on interaction with is Face, and the reason why is very important.

4. Sure, he doesn't want to beat his head against the wall, but can you remember the initial reason he gave? He asked Face to literally forget that half the game happened, and when Face refused, Pizza cut off all communication. Pizza maintains to this day that it is Face's fault that he's not responded to. How absurd is that? And how can I be held responsible for this behavior? Clearly, this isn't the result of a lone misunderstood comment.

Taking a look at your Soot case now.

1. I agree. The very fact that you have started WoTing again shows me that you have not been using Neoxardobism to avoid answering questions. Xardob himself has clarified that NX style is basically about doing whatever is most fun to you without caring about winning. And by answering this part of the question as you have, you've shown that you do actually care (though it doesn't tell me which side you're on). No offence but you suck at Neoxardobism. One thing I appreciated from you trying it was your brevity. What I did not appreciate was that the way in which you shrugged off questions and threats seemed to be at odds with your heated exchanges and emotional state when initially arguing with Pizzaguy. Somebody who gets annoyed like that does care. And that's what I like to see, even if it means you care as scum.

2. Stamped. Next time consider using that smiley. Or perhaps the sarcasm font.

3. The situation of Pizza ignoring your questions and ignoring Melter's are two different scenarios, as I see it. He's ignoring Melter because he thinks Melter is misguided innocent. He thinks Melter is the most innocent thing on the planet (perhaps even innocent enough to crap diamonds?) and has stated that although he's never in a bazillion years going to lynch Melter, he finds the argument with him is going nowhere.

With you, he thinks you're wolfy. He thinks you're trying to put a wolfy spin on his stuff, just as you think he's trying to put a wolfy spin on your stuff. Personally, I can see aspects of this from both sides, but because I am not directly involved in this conflict the 'wolfy spin' seems more like two people initially misunderstanding each other, and then the situation escalating very quickly. How different a situation would we be in now, if instead of replying with dismissive humour when Pizza said "wolves under no pressure make observations like this" and asked you to elaborate, you had actually elaborated, and then pointed out more calmly that he too could be accused of the same thing, and asked for his elaboration as well?

What I get from this whole you/Pizza war is that what came across as a bit of innocent banter quickly escalated, like one of those bush-fires that rages out of control and was started by the smallest of sparks. I put this down to the fact that you're both very driven and both like to be right. I can see arguments that you both make against each other which make sense..... and then arguments which are just really dumb.

4. And I would have reacted the same way in Melter's situation. It takes a certain type of person to accept an olive branch from somebody you feel has been misrepresenting you and calling you a liar. And I am not that person. But it's only after Melter refused that Pizza declared he'd be dropping his Melter case and ignoring anything which might drag him back into a quote war with Melter. It's hard for me to find a scum motive for that, because I do not get the feeling that Pizza is the sort of guy who is easily intimidated or backs off from a fight without good reason.

 

[Pharaoh Llandy]

@Pizzaguy

He's saying there are problems in my reasoning that I don't even understand.

That's him saying I'm a struggling villager. That's him revealing that he's full of wolf baloney when he says he thinks I'm a wolf.

But that wasn't what Magorian was saying. You were saying that Magorian was displaying false bravado by asking if I wanted to place a vote on him.

He said you didn't understand what he was doing. He didn't say that made you a villager OR a wolf.

I didn't understand what he was doing either. I'm betting that if I had responded to Magorian with "I do not understand why you are asking me this, Magorian," his response would have been along the lines of "I know you don't understand, but humour me and answer anyway, K?"

Had that happened, it would not automatically mean that Magorian thinks me a struggling villager. The point he was trying to make was contained within a post I made about him, and did not need to be understood by me to make use of me. At that point, nobody could have known what Magorian was planning by asking if I wanted to vote for him. That does not mean that everybody is a struggling villager. Just because you think somebody misunderstands does not automatically mean you think that they are innocent. Wolves can lack understanding too.

隐藏

That might have happened too fast, people still confused about the thought process.

Okay, humor is important, remember I've been saying that all game.

Wolves have a different perspective and there is a subtle difference in what they find funny.

Setup to a joke: "Boy, I wish I could die so I could prove to Phonemelter that I'm a villager!"

And I find Phonemelter to be a villager.

Now, it's a joke, because the context and the voice are all making logical sense.

Suppose I said this:

"Boy, Magorian Aximand is such a WOLF. I wish I could die to prove to him I'm a villager and shatter his world."

How does that shatter Magorian's world?

The joke makes absolutely no sense.

It's not just not-funny. People tell not-funny jokes all the time. But Magorian cannot escape the facts on this one.

Logic dictates that the joke he said about proving that he's a villager, directed at me, makes absolutely no sense if he considers me a wolf that needs to die.

It's not a joke at that point- it is bizarre.

Wrong sarcasm, Bad bizarro-world wolfy voice when telling a joke- he's caught. He never views me as a wolf and wants to prove to me he's a villager, even in Jokeland.

That's where humor goes wrong.



@ EVERY VILLAGER

Tell me how I misrepresented the voice and context of Magorian Aximand's joke.

There's no missing context, it literally just happened.

This one I can concede, and I understand what you're saying. But I don't think Magorian understands what you're saying.

Mag, if you think Pizzaguy is a wolf, then self-voting yourself and flipping blue would not shatter his world. Because if he is a wolf, he is not in any way emotionally invested in his reads. He's just faking it.

If he's innocent, then he is invested in his reads and thinks he's s a super awesome wolfhunter for finding wolfy you. If you self-vote and flip blue then his world is shattered because his faith in his own ability to hunt wolves will have been wrecked.

So if you're going with the sentiment that "I could totally show that Pizzaguy that he sucks at wolf-hunting by self-voting and showing I'm blue!" then your default stance is that you think he's a crappy wolf hunter. If you think he's a wolf, self-voting won't show him anything, because you think everything he's said had been lies.

Could you two, like, kiss and make up for now so we can lynch Soot today and figure out your **** tomorrow?