[Werewolf] SMAC: Unity [Game ends!]
- 主题发起人 MaHuD
- 开始时间
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Byeeee have fun, enjoy scotland and don't get rained on too much!
/phoneposting
/phoneposting
As a matter of fact, he told me to meet up if I have the time and am around Edinburgh (which I will be). Unfortunately, I'm afraid I won't have a free minute during my trip and also I'd probably feel guilty to sit in a pub with Elli when he's supposed to be here and posting (on second thought, no, I probably wouldn't feel guilty).
But yeah, I catch your drift. Have phun, guys!
But yeah, I catch your drift. Have phun, guys!
Pharaoh X Llandy 说:
Yeah, probably the wrong term to use. At any rate, I did see the difference, but I had a feeling this is a more "refined" variation of what you did to Adaham a while ago (i.e. pursuing without really trying to get him lynched). However, having nearly finished this "who find who suspicious" document, it looks like there are more than enough people who find Soot suspicious to potentially lynch him, so that feeling I had last night is somewhat waning. In either case, it feels too... "safe." Call me paranoid.
Because too many people are beating around the bush. Careful voting is important, but until we have more votes down, it is hard to tell if people suspicions are genuine, or just distancing attempts.
Xardob 说:
Any thoughts on the result of this experiment?
Xardob 说:Pharaoh X Llandy 说:Besides, if I take my vote off Xardob now he might start feeling lonely and forgotten again
Here are some things I made up to show (on a very basic level) how people's suspects have changed / what they currently are. Let me know if anything seems inaccurate because chances are they are errors as I was working on it last night when pretty tired.
[spoiler="Suspected" by]
ADAHAM: Soot
KRONIC: Llandy, Magorian, Soot, Vieira, Xardob, Pizza, Phone
LLANDY:
PHONE:
MAGORIAN: Adaham, Kronic, Vieira, Xardob, Pizza
SOOT: Adaham, Kronic, Llandy, Hawk, Vieira
HAWK: Magorian, Soot, Xardob, Pizza
VIEIRA:
XARDOB: Adaham, Magorian
PIZZA: Kronic, Magorian, Hawk, Phone
FRISIAN: Xardob
[/spoiler]
ADAHAM
Good->Bad: Mag
Bad->Good: Phone, Vieira, Kronic
KRONIC
None as far as I could tell
LLANDY
Good->Bad: Kronic(?)
MAGORIAN
None as far as I could tell
SOOT
Bad->Good: Mag
HAWK
None as far as I could tell
VIEIRA
None as far as I could tell
XARDOB
None as far as I could tell
PIZZA
Good->Bad: Mag, Hawk, Kronic
Bad->Good: Soot, Vieira, Phone
FRISIAN
None as far as I could tell
Good->Bad: Mag
Bad->Good: Phone, Vieira, Kronic
KRONIC
None as far as I could tell
LLANDY
Good->Bad: Kronic(?)
MAGORIAN
None as far as I could tell
SOOT
Bad->Good: Mag
HAWK
None as far as I could tell
VIEIRA
None as far as I could tell
XARDOB
None as far as I could tell
PIZZA
Good->Bad: Mag, Hawk, Kronic
Bad->Good: Soot, Vieira, Phone
FRISIAN
None as far as I could tell
ADAHAM: Soot
KRONIC: Llandy, Magorian, Soot, Vieira, Xardob, Pizza, Phone
LLANDY:
PHONE:
MAGORIAN: Adaham, Kronic, Vieira, Xardob, Pizza
SOOT: Adaham, Kronic, Llandy, Hawk, Vieira
HAWK: Magorian, Soot, Xardob, Pizza
VIEIRA:
XARDOB: Adaham, Magorian
PIZZA: Kronic, Magorian, Hawk, Phone
FRISIAN: Xardob
[/spoiler]
By the way, my suspects in there are not complete - need to think about this more first.
Adaham: Adaham opened with a vote on me, in reference to the last game. After that he did some banter, out of which the only thing that stands out as actual relevant opinion was his comment on Face's entrance post, though he left dealing with that mostly to others. After the Face vs Pizza quote war he remarked that it was a nice read, but instead he preferred to give his focus to considering why I'd jokingly called him innocent in response to his vote on me. Curious why that became the priority suddenly, after five pages, instead of the huge quote war that happened more recently, but I can't fault him for it overly much considering what did happen the two last games. He apparently reached a conclusion after a single other post (mine) and put me second on the list of five people to lynch, with the conclusion that I was 'toying with him'. Won't deny the accusation.
Next Adaham got into some banter with Xardob, but there was hardly any effort put into it by either of them. Nothing to get a read on. A little better was when Adaham engaged Pizza a little. He remarked about the fact that some people were at that stage finding Face more believable than Pizza in their interaction, and wondered if it was because he's a player the people here know better. He also took the opposite stance on the issue, finding that Pizza's accusations 'made a lot of sense', and wanted to know what Pizza himself thought of this. This is definitely his most innocent interaction so far, but my gut has nothing good to say about it. Adaham just seems to lack heart in his interactions. His next post to Pizza doesn't give a much better impression, as its focus is on game theory about how a new player/changing forum etc. affect things. Nothing wrong with having the discussion, but it reads absolutely neutral in regards to this specific game, and the amount of such interactions on Adaham's part is piling up already.
There's occasional short reads on a few people that Adaham hands out, but he doesn't really actively engage any of the players he's talking about, or even act in a way that could be expected to elicit a response from them. The one time it does (Face objecting to Adaham thinking that he's having a losing argument against Pizza), Adaham gives a very neutral answer, prefaced with a 'Oh no, I'm not falling for this one.'. He says that Pizza is winning simply by arguing better, compares it to me and Face last game, and says that he's already said what he thinks of Face. He elaborates anyways with things like 'felt odd', 'more fabricated', 'rubbed me the wrong way'. Indeed, it doesn't look like Adaham is going to 'fall' for having any kind of actual relevant discussion this game. In the same post he goes further on his paranoia trip in response to me remarking that his play felt different from the last two times I saw him as innocent and that there seemed to be a lack of wolf hunting in there. After this reread, this statement stands all the more, but Adaham seemed to figure that me giving him the benefit of the doubt because the difference in reads might because of my own role changing meant that he could go further theorizing about what I'd do if I just so happened to be a wolf this time around, again. Granted, he also tried to dismiss it with some more meta and a 'little bit far-fetched', but all this vague crap really isn't cutting it for me.
Next, after Kronic made his bumbling response to Magorian pressing him about his 'backdoor factory', Adaham chose to remark about his cursing lazily, and then told everyone to prepare for him actually focusing on the game. I'll be curious to see if I can actually spot the difference, on this reread. His next post, in response to Face trying to further engage him, not so promising. "It's a vibe I'm getting, nothing less, nothing more." and "Why so pissy already?" What the **** kind of an Adaham just keeps posting this kind of vague bull****? Followed by more banter and excuses for doing nothing. Everytime he manages to state an actual opinion it's followed by some kind of 'but' or 'I'm not sure'. He did make one good post, telling Pizza to spread his focus a little and leave his argument with Face to rest, though. After Hawk showed up with his case on me and then asked Adaham for his thoughts on me, he just automatically went back to the apparent only thing he can think of about me: The meta from my stance towards him in the last two games and how it doesn't match with what I'm doing this game, and how he's still not sure what to make of it. There's also a follow up post where he seems to get defensive because of Hawk picking him out in specific to give an opinion. He then made another good post, to break of the argument between Face and Pizza again.
His response to me finding an initial connection, though admittedly a weak on, between him and Kronic, was a "Gotta go now, but your theory doesn't add up 100%. Maybe I'll find time tomorrow to address that." He apparently never did, as he instead continued on with some banter, granted he at least ventured out a little more actively to chip in opinions, even if he did nothing with it. Some pages later he produced a LoS, where he clearly marked what his stances on different people were. Something I'd have appreciated if in the LoS or elsewhere he'd actually have clearly stated reasons for even half of it. After some more pages of banter he finally managed to produce this:
As to how impressive my own performance has been, that's for someone else to judge, but what I do know, though, is that the accusation of me sitting on the fence is still bull****. As to easy targets; scum are scum regardless of how obvious they are. Need I remind you of Sheep and Pilgrim? His bit on Xardob is so completely reliant on interpretation. He's observed the same change as I have, but my interpretation is the exact opposite of his.
Lastly, this post just shows perfectly how everything Adaham has done in this game revolves around his own self. The way he here picked his top two suspects purely out what they have said about him is just the culmination of his navel-gazing. No harm in forming opinions out of your own interactions, but the fact remains that he's not doing anything to facilitate serious interactions with others. To me this laziness mixed with focus on his own self are clear signs of scum. For all his bantering in the end he's playing a very reactive game, which is not something I witnessed from Adaham in the last two games.
In the remaining 18 pages, somewhat relevant posts include: Calling out Frisian on the fact that he can play an entire wolf game without really giving out any opinions. Remarking that everyone is on auto-pilot to lynch Hawk - which isn't true as far as I can tell, though considering his contribution I have no issue with lynching him. Warning Pizza to not to be too complacent about Llandy's role. Wanting to see more posts from Hawk and Kronic. Interpreting Xardob's joke about 'muddying things up' as a reaction to being called out for being overly concerned. Another reference to Hawk and Kronic's inactivity, and how this may be scummy lurking.
To me this reread showed that on top of not really doing anything, Adaham is keenly aware of the fact that he's not doing anything and even goes out of his way at times to avoid doing anything. He has a whole lot of excuses lined of for why, and no doubt most of them are valid in some sense, but this just isn't the Adaham I was expecting this game, especially as he's still clearly found the time to post a good amount, at least until now. When you add in the extremely lazy way he went about building his case on me, almost purely out of meta, extrapolation and WIFOM, I'm pretty sure that his weak play this game is because he's a villain. Even two of the three posts of his that I actually think show a villagery mindset were meant to break up the Pizza vs Face argument, instead of actively pursuing more discussion, though he was at least on correct track in trying to get Kronic and Hawk to post more. I don't know why this of all times is when everyone starts giving him slack for his playstyle, so unless everyone's interpreting his level of contribution differently from me, I have to question why he has had so little suspicion put on him.
Unfortunate I didn't get this post out earlier, before Adaham ****ed off to do more important things than arguing on the internet.
Next Adaham got into some banter with Xardob, but there was hardly any effort put into it by either of them. Nothing to get a read on. A little better was when Adaham engaged Pizza a little. He remarked about the fact that some people were at that stage finding Face more believable than Pizza in their interaction, and wondered if it was because he's a player the people here know better. He also took the opposite stance on the issue, finding that Pizza's accusations 'made a lot of sense', and wanted to know what Pizza himself thought of this. This is definitely his most innocent interaction so far, but my gut has nothing good to say about it. Adaham just seems to lack heart in his interactions. His next post to Pizza doesn't give a much better impression, as its focus is on game theory about how a new player/changing forum etc. affect things. Nothing wrong with having the discussion, but it reads absolutely neutral in regards to this specific game, and the amount of such interactions on Adaham's part is piling up already.
There's occasional short reads on a few people that Adaham hands out, but he doesn't really actively engage any of the players he's talking about, or even act in a way that could be expected to elicit a response from them. The one time it does (Face objecting to Adaham thinking that he's having a losing argument against Pizza), Adaham gives a very neutral answer, prefaced with a 'Oh no, I'm not falling for this one.'. He says that Pizza is winning simply by arguing better, compares it to me and Face last game, and says that he's already said what he thinks of Face. He elaborates anyways with things like 'felt odd', 'more fabricated', 'rubbed me the wrong way'. Indeed, it doesn't look like Adaham is going to 'fall' for having any kind of actual relevant discussion this game. In the same post he goes further on his paranoia trip in response to me remarking that his play felt different from the last two times I saw him as innocent and that there seemed to be a lack of wolf hunting in there. After this reread, this statement stands all the more, but Adaham seemed to figure that me giving him the benefit of the doubt because the difference in reads might because of my own role changing meant that he could go further theorizing about what I'd do if I just so happened to be a wolf this time around, again. Granted, he also tried to dismiss it with some more meta and a 'little bit far-fetched', but all this vague crap really isn't cutting it for me.
Next, after Kronic made his bumbling response to Magorian pressing him about his 'backdoor factory', Adaham chose to remark about his cursing lazily, and then told everyone to prepare for him actually focusing on the game. I'll be curious to see if I can actually spot the difference, on this reread. His next post, in response to Face trying to further engage him, not so promising. "It's a vibe I'm getting, nothing less, nothing more." and "Why so pissy already?" What the **** kind of an Adaham just keeps posting this kind of vague bull****? Followed by more banter and excuses for doing nothing. Everytime he manages to state an actual opinion it's followed by some kind of 'but' or 'I'm not sure'. He did make one good post, telling Pizza to spread his focus a little and leave his argument with Face to rest, though. After Hawk showed up with his case on me and then asked Adaham for his thoughts on me, he just automatically went back to the apparent only thing he can think of about me: The meta from my stance towards him in the last two games and how it doesn't match with what I'm doing this game, and how he's still not sure what to make of it. There's also a follow up post where he seems to get defensive because of Hawk picking him out in specific to give an opinion. He then made another good post, to break of the argument between Face and Pizza again.
His response to me finding an initial connection, though admittedly a weak on, between him and Kronic, was a "Gotta go now, but your theory doesn't add up 100%. Maybe I'll find time tomorrow to address that." He apparently never did, as he instead continued on with some banter, granted he at least ventured out a little more actively to chip in opinions, even if he did nothing with it. Some pages later he produced a LoS, where he clearly marked what his stances on different people were. Something I'd have appreciated if in the LoS or elsewhere he'd actually have clearly stated reasons for even half of it. After some more pages of banter he finally managed to produce this:
Here literally his only read on anything I've done in this entire game seems to be based on my read on him differing from the last two games where I was a wolf. Again, I'm not going to fault him for being paranoid, but how is this not the laziest and least reliable way you could possibly go about an investigation? He's just picked whatever interpretation of my words regarding him that fits my actions if I'm a wolf. He's not just interpreting my play through meta, he's picking out a small part of it and expressly trying to make it fit his preconceived idea of me being a wolf. He is straight up starting from the conclusion and just trying to make the evidence fit. He could have done the exact same thing literally regardless of what I said in this game, as long as he does a bit of WIFOM.Adaham 说:Meta for Soot is simple (and more or less already explained by Vieira). After he decided to buddy up with me for his last two iterations, it was clear he had to change it up this time around. Last game he even said "I'm not expecting you to give me a free pass this time around", and he still screwed me. And since I came in directly voting him, he must have understood pretty early that I was not gonna let him slip past easily. So buddying up was not gonna cut it this time. So instead he took the most simple route of trying to discredit me and my style - since he actually liked the brevity, he now said I was less fun when having little quotes in between. The only other "reason" he gave to suspect me is the fact he thinks my performance is poor, or disappointing, or lacking, or not impressive, or whatever. As if he himself had been ****ting gold nuggets of wisdom. The contrary is the case, as some have pointed out already. He's on the fence ready to swing somewhere. To make it not all that obvious, he came up with a pack theory because he suddenly remembered that this is a thing he usually does and it would probably look like him if he did. His choices are all easy targets. Hawk, for obvious reasons. The second guy I forgot (Xardob 说:
You, are a bit more complicated. Basically I already pointed earlier at you changing up your game because too many people adapted Neoxardobism and it wasn't fun for you anymore (or because you didn't feel special anymore?). Anyhow, suddenly you threaten us with WoT's and appear to be seemingly involved. Only that you aren't really, because I don't really see you going after anybody. With your shorter style, you're usually very straight forward and aggressive to a point, that is almost outrageous. Now you seem to care a lot more about how you're perceived.
And as flattered as I was about your offer to pick up our teamplay from Twilight Zone II (yeah, Whoopin...we loved that game!!!), as much did I feel that this was a weak attempt to gain my trust or to buddy up. Especially since you didn't really follow it up. And now you seem more focused on low blows against me, than actually hunting yourself. If you think my type of Neoxardobism isn't fully developed yet, you'd say that (as you did in earlier games where I used that style), but instead you've joined the cohorts of those that rather ridicule my contributions in general (even going as far as ridiculing my contributions in Cluedo, which is laughable since there isn't much that can be done right or wrong in Cluedo anyway).
Taken all that into account, and remembering my suspicion of Soot, it seems like you guys came to a silent agreement (yeah, like in the brothers Karamasov) that you're gonna do a role reversal and turn the good cop/bad cop game around. Now soon acts all villagery, back to suspecting me (even though he's having trouble to construct something), while you're trying to buddy up "for old time's sake".
Enough explanation?
As to how impressive my own performance has been, that's for someone else to judge, but what I do know, though, is that the accusation of me sitting on the fence is still bull****. As to easy targets; scum are scum regardless of how obvious they are. Need I remind you of Sheep and Pilgrim? His bit on Xardob is so completely reliant on interpretation. He's observed the same change as I have, but my interpretation is the exact opposite of his.
Lastly, this post just shows perfectly how everything Adaham has done in this game revolves around his own self. The way he here picked his top two suspects purely out what they have said about him is just the culmination of his navel-gazing. No harm in forming opinions out of your own interactions, but the fact remains that he's not doing anything to facilitate serious interactions with others. To me this laziness mixed with focus on his own self are clear signs of scum. For all his bantering in the end he's playing a very reactive game, which is not something I witnessed from Adaham in the last two games.
In the remaining 18 pages, somewhat relevant posts include: Calling out Frisian on the fact that he can play an entire wolf game without really giving out any opinions. Remarking that everyone is on auto-pilot to lynch Hawk - which isn't true as far as I can tell, though considering his contribution I have no issue with lynching him. Warning Pizza to not to be too complacent about Llandy's role. Wanting to see more posts from Hawk and Kronic. Interpreting Xardob's joke about 'muddying things up' as a reaction to being called out for being overly concerned. Another reference to Hawk and Kronic's inactivity, and how this may be scummy lurking.
To me this reread showed that on top of not really doing anything, Adaham is keenly aware of the fact that he's not doing anything and even goes out of his way at times to avoid doing anything. He has a whole lot of excuses lined of for why, and no doubt most of them are valid in some sense, but this just isn't the Adaham I was expecting this game, especially as he's still clearly found the time to post a good amount, at least until now. When you add in the extremely lazy way he went about building his case on me, almost purely out of meta, extrapolation and WIFOM, I'm pretty sure that his weak play this game is because he's a villain. Even two of the three posts of his that I actually think show a villagery mindset were meant to break up the Pizza vs Face argument, instead of actively pursuing more discussion, though he was at least on correct track in trying to get Kronic and Hawk to post more. I don't know why this of all times is when everyone starts giving him slack for his playstyle, so unless everyone's interpreting his level of contribution differently from me, I have to question why he has had so little suspicion put on him.
Unfortunate I didn't get this post out earlier, before Adaham ****ed off to do more important things than arguing on the internet.
Right, I knew I was forgetting something - was going to talk a bit about Adaham. Basically I was going to point out what you did there, how his two main cases (you, Xardob) are almost entirely meta-based surrounding him with little to do with the actual events in the game. The constant, dare I say, excessive "buddying" with Pizza feels a lot like a wolf trying to get on the good side of an innocent. I understand the initial interactions to be helping Pizza become slightly more familiar with the group, but by now we should be well past that point. I think I had a few more things to say, but I am on my phone and Soot covered the main points.
I've been really busy over the past three days sorting the prep stuff for a job tryout next week. I've got 25 or so pages to catch up on, but I'll hop to it.
Sorry everyone, realise it's not great when a player drops off the face of the planet for a few days, I was gonna drop a message Saturday morning but I overslept and things ended up rather rushed. I'll catch up ASAP.
Sorry everyone, realise it's not great when a player drops off the face of the planet for a few days, I was gonna drop a message Saturday morning but I overslept and things ended up rather rushed. I'll catch up ASAP.
@Pizza:
You mentioned earlier in the thread that Kronic and Hawk were D2 lunches at the earlier - what was the reason for your change if heart, seeing as they are in your top 3 now?
You mentioned earlier in the thread that Kronic and Hawk were D2 lunches at the earlier - what was the reason for your change if heart, seeing as they are in your top 3 now?
Xardob 说:
It's not my main purpose in the game, but I must admit that I take a certain nefarious delight in taunting you with it, now that I know it's driving you crazy.
Phonemelter 说:
Then I'll tell you what; I will convince you to lynch Soot, or I will die trying. And if I do die trying, I will tell you I told you so, sulk for a while, and expect you to take my case a little more seriously.
If, as you imply above, my aim is to have suspicion on somebody without really trying to get them lynched, then what makes Soot any 'safer' than any other player?
I've pointed out the scummy stuff he has done so far, but my best points seem to be largely falling on deaf ears. Nobody else (other than Hawk) seems to see the fence-sitting. Nobody seems to think overly much of him making up ridiculous packs based on "oh, this player was just in my mind so I've put him in the pack and afterwards I found a reason to keep him there". Innocent Soot looks for pack connections but he does not dishonestly invent them as he is doing here.
And I'll say this now; if I'm right about Soot just reversing most of his stances from last game when he was scum, then Soot flipping wolf would pretty much clear you and Pizzaguy as innocents for me.
That's understandable. But personally, I like the under-pressure-vote-consolidating that some of the recent games have had. That's when you find out if people are willing to put their money where their mouths are, and I find it useful to compare under-pressure voting patterns to suspicion patterns from earlier in the day, when looking back after the event.
I suspect if people are beating around the bush it's because we don't have a deadline yet. I would love for MaHuD to randomly spring a 24hr deadline on us because then we'll get to really see what people are about.
Now, food and then try to see if I can decipher Pizzaguy's WoT.
Pharaoh X Llandy 说:
Well at first I didn't realize there were four others suspecting Soot, so my first thoughts were "Hmm, is this really going to happen? Is this going to be like Shatari last game being all like 'I warned you guys, we should have gone with a different player' and then switching over to someone else at the deadline?" The "safer" bit is more of a feeling, like I had about Soot last game, in the sense that this is the second or third time you have gone at it with him in a game, so you might be more "used" to arguing with him. Not saying you have no reason to argue with him, but it doesn't come off as innocent to me as I would expect, if that makes any sense.
