[Werewolf] SMAC: Unity [Game ends!]

[Vieira151]

@Vieira:

I like my stupid packmate theories, and I came to Adaham's post right after reading Kronic's post and agreeing with what Mag said on it.

Nothing wrong with packmate theories - yours just has one single link and it's not particularly strong. 

My read on Mag changed because he brought up several things that I'd also thought of about at the same time, in his latest post at the time.

I'm curious to know what else you agreed with besides his Kronic/Eli point (which I already know you agree with).

The second was in reference to the fact that in the two last games I played as a wolf I felt that he was extremely innocent, which could be the reason he keeps bringing up paranoid remarks about me, aside possibly trying to find something to justify a case on me by making comparisons to those games. This sentiment was not shared by people that didn't have the extra information that comes with being a wolf. Thus, the first thing I was looking for in this game was if I could gauge Adaham to be innocent as easily as I thought it seemed when I was a wolf. From there I started developing a gut read to the opposite direction.

I won't claim my case on Adaham is particularly strong thus far, but I do have to say that I think I got a pretty good read from Hawk's attack on me, despite all the potential OMGUS and ****, and you guys should really examine that a bit more. I guess it's a bit easier to see bull**** in an argument directed at oneself, and a bit harder to read the motivations behind it, but I do have to say I'm a little miffed by how everyone's accepting Hawk's case.

The first is a meta argument I know very little about, so it's hard for me to dissect in any great detail. It also hinges on WIFOM territory, but I'd argue that doing the same thing a third time in a row would be too obvious and noticeable, thus making it a bit of a risk. Do I consider you someone who would go the obvious route (for whatever reason)? I'm not sure, but in my eyes the safer option would be along the lines of what you are playing.

You start of neutrally on Adaham (as with most players, to be fair) but as soon as you see any slight detail, you shifted him over to the furry side of your thoughts even though it's not a particularly strong case, as admitted, that is based on a string-thin packmates theory; this acts as a meta-distancing act from your prior performances. To make your play feel different.

Again, it's relies on taking a particular stance in WIFOM headed territory (especially if we read it from you as an innocent this time around) and some knowledge in the meta situation - which I don't have a lot of. But to me it's certainly plausible and works based on what little information about the past buddying up.

I believe what, that there is a reason? There is clearly not - people pointed out previous spelling mistakes and the OP has been fixed since.

I'm aware that there is no reason and the OP has been fixed.

It was obvious before the OP was fixed that this was the case. You drawing attention to it seemed illegitimate to me.

How in what way was it obvious? We have had some interesting mechanics in the past in our games, and MaHuD mentioned there is going to be some 'posting wall' mechanics during the night - for all I know it could have been related to that.

In any case, I dropped it once it was fixed and I see no real reason to discuss it any further. 

78 is wolfy because if you're being townread from someone and do not suspect them, you generally don't try to correct their reasons for thinking you're a villager.

Although.... now that I think about it more, I have done that before at least twice as villager that I can recollect. 

But I'm a strange cat. I'd still find it suspect if someone else did it. It smells of trying too hard to look villagery.

That's a good point and I did not notice it at the time.

81 attacks my top townread, defends my top wolfread while reading him neutrally and say it isn't worth reading into [Nausea smiley] and I've gone over why 4. is wolfy twice already, underlining it both times, getting frustrated that I am now repeating myself about something I've repeated myself about.

Yes, I apologise. I was writing those thoughts as I read them, so it's something I must have forgotten to remove before posting. Either that or I didn't associate your later explanation with those particular replies at the time.

For folks who don't like seeing walls of text, you do hit the post-it-again button too many times for my liking.

Unfortunately, I have yet to adapt my playstyle to this new style of posting. I started playing during the Reign of WoTs and I stopped playing for a while as the the revolution began.   

Also regarding that same post (though not the content in the quote), what do you mean when you say that a post is "pure"? Regarding your Adaham segment.

Gut read on Adaham's post is that he is a villager. It is free flowing and in the moment and doesn't read careful, contrived, anxious, or whatever.

Now I'm aware Adaham is even more ancient than I am, so I can't hard clear him for such posts. Just.... waiting for a reason to clear him. Villager by default, stronger than rand for now, let's see if it stays that way.

Quick question: When you say "stronger than rand", what does rand mean in this situation? When you were discussing Eli's percantages earlier I thought you meant random, but I can't see how that meaning would fit here. Anyway...

I find it slightly amusing you were labelling Adaham's post as 'pure' as he states that he won't lynch him because of reference catch. Something that clicked suspiciously in my brain, regardless of whether Adaham was joking.

I think it's likely that Xardob is a wolf, and this makes me sad.

Interesting. My town read on him has been getting stronger the more he's posted. Seems like he's got good and genuine reasoning in there. That's hardly conclusive when it comes to Xardob, but I don't see why you'd be getting the opposite read.

+1



That's a lot of yo-yo-ing going on, Pizza. How did you go from "not villagery" to "reading villager" in the space of two adjacent posts?

In-Post EDIT:

I think he means that Hawk is next in line if he flips back to thinking Mag is innocent.

I guess that is one way to read it. Clarification from Pizza needed.



I'll need to go have a reread of the thread to see what I can make of Hawk. I'd be happy with Eli or Soot, I think. There's a bit of a tussle for 3rd place, but those are all mostly mixed feelings.

 

[Phonemelter]

Good vibes from Soot, Vieira, and Phoney. They're not always right, but I do at least feel like they're genuine.

Wolf under zero pressure makes these sorts of explanation-free reads.

Like this?

Hawk reads not villagery, Eli as well, and Magorian now.

Phone I'm neutral-izing, Vieira soft villager lean. Soot, seems fine.

Xardog can be my new Dog. He can help me fetch a wolfy Mag-azine.

 

[Askthepizzaguy]

Good vibes from Soot, Vieira, and Phoney. They're not always right, but I do at least feel like they're genuine.

Wolf under zero pressure makes these sorts of explanation-free reads.

Like this?

Hawk reads not villagery, Eli as well, and Magorian now.

Phone I'm neutral-izing, Vieira soft villager lean. Soot, seems fine.

Xardog can be my new Dog. He can help me fetch a wolfy Mag-azine.

I've explained Eli, Magorian, discussed you, and put Soot as a villager before I left yesterday.

No idea what game you're reading anymore. Sadly this makes you a villager.

 

[Phonemelter]

I don't recall your explanations on Vieira, Soot, or Xardob.

 

[Phonemelter]

And Hawk.

 

[Adaham]

I'm looking forward to this wall-of-bs thing at night. That should be fun.

If you guys don't spam too much during tomorrow, I might even give you a LoS on sunday. But only if you behave well till then...

 

[Askthepizzaguy]

Quick question: When you say "stronger than rand", what does rand mean in this situation? When you were discussing Eli's percantages earlier I thought you meant random, but I can't see how that meaning would fit here. Anyway...

Yeah I mean random. Basically, stronger than the random odds he would be a villager anyway, a shortened way of saying a preference or lean.

That's a lot of yo-yo-ing going on, Pizza. How did you go from "not villagery" to "reading villager" in the space of two adjacent posts?

Related to which player, Xardob? One switch from villager to wolf or vice-versa isn't a yo-yo, it's simply an update.

Xardob would be the only one I've yo-yo'ed on I think...

Because I had a split second instinct to vote him despite my villager read on him when he said something like good luck trying to lynch me today-

Visceral reaction to such a taunt. Then I thought about it for more than a few seconds. I don't think the sudden spike in wolfiness overshadowed his villager game thusfar, so I calmed my tits a bit.

But... his interaction with Magorian interests me greatly, and Magorian reads like a very confident, very experienced wolf blowing off pressure like a boss and had been enjoying his formerly blue status a little bit too much, so he slipped when he began to act like there was no pressure to actually find wolves today or clear villagers for *reasons*.

I guess that is one way to read it. Clarification from Pizza needed.

The interpretation given was correct.

 

[Askthepizzaguy]

I don't recall your explanations on Vieira, Soot, or Xardob.

And Hawk.

How much time did you spend looking? If the answer is none, you have only yourself to blame.

I could elaborate more on Soot, or anyone, really. I have no issue elaborating. But it continues to be an annoyance that I am asked to repeat myself while people are also saying I'm saying too much.

Pick a belief.

 

[Askthepizzaguy]

That wasn't fair. That was directed at the group and not at Phone.

Phone, let's start over. Or not, you don't have to. But I'd like a hard reset.

Let's begin talking as if the first half of the day happened, but it happened like a long time ago and neither of us cares anymore.

Agreed? If so, I'll answer whatever questions you have and swallow my own mild irritation over trivialities. It's called sucking it up and I need to do that.

 

[Phonemelter]

Dating back to your comments on Soot's LoS (which you concluded with "You say much that I agree with, some that I disagree with, but I don't see much in the way of risks being taken"), this is what I have found on those players:

Update: Soot and Pharaoh are very mild villager leans now.

I am opposed to lynching Soot right now. Call it a brief update.

Not sure I've swung back to a villager lean on Soot, but I am now quite hesitant. And I don't like you trying to lynch Mags or myself either.

I'd consider Hawk and Eli, d2 at the earliest.

Tell me directly to vote for Hawk, and tell me it is not a joke, and I shall.

Thank you. I would much rather not vote Hawk, but you're in my solid blue so you have commanding privileges for the time being.

I have not seen you go into detail on Hawk, Xardob, or your recent thoughts on Soot. I might give you Vieira because you have been interacting with him, but again, you have not given much of a reason for your change on him either.

 

[Magorian Aximand]

Mag's Itty Bitty Incomplete and Poorly Referenced List of Suspects

Llandy: My main problem with Llandy so far came in her recent conversation with Soot. How can he be playing both sides in an argument where he thinks both players are innocent and both are mistaken in their arguments? That's not a variation on a theme because it doesn't end with anybody dying or any arguments getting advanced. Then she even tries to "gotcha" him. I'm just not buying it. I know Hawk started it, but come on Llandy.

Phoney: Phone responded exceptionally well (and accurately) to Pizza's pressure, and kept up the hunt. A++. .... +

Hawk: See Llandy. Except I expect Hawk to not make any sense. So when he made some sense on Pizza it was alarming. My biggest fear with Hawk is a boy who cried wolf scenario, where we ignore obvious wolfish play because "that's Hawk" and finally let him live and he finally is a wolf. I'll be honest, I don't know exactly how to handle that. I'm open to ideas.

Vieira: He's settled in, and he's hunting like he did before he lost his mojo. Good stuff. The only funny bit is where he claims he can't recall me ever showing uncertainty. It's good to know I've grown into an idealized version of myself in his mind.

Fris: People have wondered about my comment on Fris because he's been so quiet. How could I have come to any kind of conclusion? Well, it's a mild one, but it's with good reason. Fris is always quiet, and more quiet is to be expected as a result of his current IRL situation (sorry buddy). But what he has done when he's been here is participate. At least in a more adventurous way than I expect of his wolfish self. This isn't all it takes to read him, as he demonstrated as a panda (though that really wasn't my game), but it's enough for day one. I won't kill him until later in the game when someone's had a chance to poke him with a stick and give us something we can actually analyze.

Hammy: **** if I know.

Kronisianthus: The backdoor factory has been mentioned, but he doesn't improve from there. His reason for those backdoors? To prevent himself from getting tunnel vision. I'm not making that up. Then his post on Pizza is a tentative attempt to make himself appear original. He dislike's Pizza's willingness to sell his vote. Sure, that's great. But he, cautiously, tries to make it appear as though this is an original idea of his own, when in reality the very post he quotes is viciously attacked by Hawk, and admonished by myself. Backdoors? Check. Dishonest parroting? Check.

Pizza: The ego-luck variants, the hypocrisy, and even the vote-selling I can live with. What I don't like is what appears to be the following of public opinion while working very hard to appear as though his opinion is very self driven. He's active, he's present, he finds his own reasons, but unpopular opinions are moved away from (either gradually or quickly) and potential new ideas are jumped on. Not bandwagoning, too early for that, but it looks like he's trying to read where the village will go so he can claim he was there first. This is far from concrete, I know, but this is the feeling I get.

Xardob: He's not playing like Xardob. I'm far more miffed by his assessment of Kronic than his vote on me. That's the kind of "hunting without hunting" that Xardob should jump on. But instead he freaks out about Frisian being very Frisian about Pizza vs Phone? If you aren't convinced by my meta-view of innocent Xardob, take a look at this epic flip flop.

Is anyone else reminded of Xardob's wolf tactic of "I assume everyone is a wolf by default" when reading Phoney's post?

That was a fun game. But no, I don't get that vibe from that post. Too obviously jokey to be part of that strategy.

To:

Plus this is the... third game in a row (?) that you have suspected me from the start, so I am used to it. 

I see you've taken another page from my playbook. And it's the wolf one again.

 

[Phonemelter]

Phone, let's start over. Or not, you don't have to. But I'd like a hard reset.

Let's begin talking as if the first half of the day happened, but it happened like a long time ago and neither of us cares anymore.

No, because I do care - why should I ignore things that have happened in a WW game, especially a major event?

Agreed? If so, I'll answer whatever questions you have and swallow my own mild irritation over trivialities. It's called sucking it up and I need to do that.

No, I do not like to make "deals" in WW because I tend to associate that with wolfish behavior. You should still answer those questions you keep ignoring, as other people are interested and want answers too.

 

[Magorian Aximand]

Phone, wanna make a deal? Let's lynch Hawk and I'll send you a case of beer. Yeah?

 

[Xardob]

Mag, what happened to Soot?

 

[Magorian Aximand]

I told you it was incomplete.


...



No I really just forgot him. I have a very positive read on Soot right now. His posts have been diverse, honest, and I can't find any malicious intent.

 

[Pharaoh Llandy]

I can't offer you advice on how to help me read you villager, it defeats the purpose.

Magorian suddenly reading villager to me again would be a vote on Hawk.

I find it odd how you randomly say to me that you can't offer me advice on how to help you read me as a villager (which I never even asked or implied, so I don't know why you even mentioned it) and the next day prompt Magorian on what will make him appear more villagery to you.

 

[Vieira151]

That's a lot of yo-yo-ing going on, Pizza. How did you go from "not villagery" to "reading villager" in the space of two adjacent posts?

Related to which player, Xardob? One switch from villager to wolf or vice-versa isn't a yo-yo, it's simply an update.

I was actually meaning Magorian, so that's my bad. It's why I was asked for clarification because I had initially read it like Phonemelter did.

But... his interaction with Magorian interests me greatly, and Magorian reads like a very confident, very experienced wolf blowing off pressure like a boss and had been enjoying his formerly blue status a little bit too much, so he slipped when he began to act like there was no pressure to actually find wolves today or clear villagers for *reasons*.

I felt that way at first, but initial readings suggests he is growing into the game (as opposed to before when he was just there, not doing much but enjoying the sun).



Jesus Christ, Mag. In the hands of an inexperienced player, I'd consider that a wolfish oversight. But in your case? I don't know. I'd be surprised if you could **** up that much. 

[me=Vieira]is suggesting that he and Soots in cahoots[/me]



I'd definitely be into hearing more from Kronic and Llandy. It should make for interesting reading.

NINJA: Speak of the deviless!

 

[Pharaoh Llandy]

Oh, well that wasn't very clear - interpreted it as "Magorian would be a villager read with a vote on Hawk."

I read it the same.

~Llandy, who is still catching up on the thread

 

[Vieira151]

Oh, apparently I just completely misunderstood what Pizza was saying.

[me=Vieira]tries turning some screws in his brain[/me]

 

[Magorian Aximand]

I can't offer you advice on how to help me read you villager, it defeats the purpose.

Magorian suddenly reading villager to me again would be a vote on Hawk.

I find it odd how you randomly say to me that you can't offer me advice on how to help you read me as a villager (which I never even asked or implied, so I don't know why you even mentioned it) and the next day prompt Magorian on what will make him appear more villagery to you.

That's how I read it too, but it's been pointed out that he meant that if he finds me to be innocent again, his vote would move to hawk.

Jesus Christ, Mag. In the hands of an inexperienced player, I'd consider that a wolfish oversight. But in your case? I don't know. I'd be surprised if you could **** up that much. 

[me=Vieira]is suggesting that he and Soots in cahoots[/me]

I did the list out of order. Since I thought my analysis of Soot, I assumed I had posted it.