All caught up, but I've gotta run. I should be able to make my post either tonight or tomorrow night. I don't yet find Nodscouter overtly scummy at the moment, just misguided. A few things rubbed me the wrong way with both Troll and AWdeV. I'll be expanding as soon as I'm able.
Ok, first off, apologies for the delay. For the main part of this,. I'll be commenting on things as I go through the thread just now, but I apologise if there are a few chronological inconsistencies.
Regendur 说:
I can't help but be reminded of a darkly clever villain in a book, slowly walking circles around an innocent man who knows the villain's tyranny and power, saying "If you are innocent, why are you nervous?" by this situation, Adaham.
I bet I was also nervous because of the final I just took for a college class. I passed it, so I'm quite relieved now.
Firstly, I find this bugs me. Whilst it could be considered villainous, we all know the "Good cop, bad cop" routine, which is essentially the same thing. It isn't a villainous tactic, or at least, no more so that others. I therefore wouldn't think of Adaham as villainous, or give him a greater degree of suspicion, as I am well aware he prefers to pursue a high pressure playstyle.
I don't have too much to comment about on the discussion between Mags and Ej regarding the "joke" voting stage; whilst both or their arguments have a good degree of sense, the stage is pretty well embedded in TW WW game protocol by now. Best I can hope for from that is something to refer back to later for one of them, but I doubt it.
Revilo 说:
Dryvus 说:
I'll be waiting to hear for a few more people before I go around casting votes.
Revilo 说:
Only Nodscouter left to report in now then? Or have I counted wrong?
I was under the impression that the game only truly started once everyone was checked in, however it appears I was wrong. This does however make me think that you're eager to cast around suspicion, even over something so trivial as that.
This feels almost like a mild OMGUS as a response to what, to me at least, seems like a passing joke. Not too major, but my mind still flagged it.
Adaham 说:
And regarding the image of the evil villain going in circles around his prey. Well, I am hunting Werewolves in this game, and if I suspect somebody, I close in on them. I want scum to fear me.
Leads me to another point: A lot in this game is image. Since our perception of the player is limited, because we only have the written word and some visual candy (Avatar) to judge the person. In my experience that leads to players developing strong stereotypical images of other players. These are being used a lot in these games, especially by scum. Infrequent or controversial posters (like MaHuD or me) are often popular targets for the scum players. It is rather easy to accuse them by appealing to stereotypical sentiment (e.g. Adaham is always manipulative, MaHuD now officially has a "retarded" playstyle, etc.).
Does that mean I really suspect Regendur for suggesting I´m a villain with a moustache? Actually his reactions seemed pretty honest to me throughout and nothing in his responses to my pressuring seemed really off. Obviously my pressuring was not really based on much and so I can imagine he feels like he´s being used, which was part of the exercise.
Here Adaham pretty much verifies what I'd commented about when I read his earlier exchange with Regendur; again, not much to comment on, just acknowledging it as verification.
MaHuD 说:
Also keep it up Ejnomad, I can't provide discussion now, but in the morning I can.
This sort of thing always irritated me: even if you can't create discussion you can at least participate (I am aware of the hypocrisy here); playing in two games at once may be a bind, but I managed it, along with a few other players.
ejnomad07 说:
AWdeV 说:
Let's recap.
If you don't vote and act quite as vehemently as Ejnomad does, you're scum.
If you're the least bit concerned about the very first vote killing an innocent, you're scum.
According to Ej, ou're also scummy if you are frightened of suspicion, though I can see the reasoning behind that.
Despite me agreeing with his last point I can't help but feel Ej is trying to get rid of Mag as soon as he can, not because of any thing concrete but because of his play style. Therefore, vote: Ejnomad. Not as such beause I feel Mag is a definite innocent but more because of an unreasonably aggressive attitude towards Magximand.
The first serious vote, and it couldn't have been more forced and contrived. It's too early to tell, but only scum normally think of such actions in black or white. There is no 100% scum tell and I would never suggest there is so. However, if actions A, B, and C tend to be scummy and they do all of the above. It's a strong case. I'm surprised and disturbed by you feeling you had to start the bandwagons so early, and on someone who's shown to obviously be openly talking.
This bit throws me off: what bandwagons? Throwing a vote on you doesn't constitute a wagon. Besides, you're quick to condemn in no uncertain terms yourself, so on your logic, you must either be a wolf, or a hypocrite. Villagers can think in black and white too
ejnomad07 说:
Who do you find most scummy at this point? Why haven't you voted for them?
This bit also strikes me as bloody silly. As of this point in reading through the thread, you'd strike me as being the most scummy. However, I'm nowhere near convinced enough to start libbing votes around. This may have changed by the time I finish catching up and posting this, but still: there's no benefit to always having your vote out on someone suspicious.
Nodscouter 说:
ejnomad07 说:
Nodscouter 说:
**** I forgot to post here earlier, and now it's already 4 pages!
Can you give a single good reason why you can't comment on developments as they are right now? Even if you are confused, you can say what you;re confused about and what you think.
Nodscouter 说:
Revilo 说:
I find that Nodscouters behaviour is very disturbing. First off he 'forgets' (waits?) to post for the best part of 4 pages and this strikes me as a wolfish thing to do, especially given his seemingly ecstatic reaction at being awarded the last slot of the game. It would give him the perfect opportunity to band-wagon onto someone or jump in and defend a packmate, or to atleast sit back and watch how everybody reacts without trying to spur discussion on his own - something that can only benefit the wolves.
On top of that, he refuses to elaborate on his own thoughts so far, despite (possibly) having the greatest opportunity to examine them without being mixed up in them himself. No, it's rather worrying actually and so to that end Vote: Nodscouter.
I honestly did forget. I've been caught up in alot of schoolwork lately so it didn't strike me until yesterday(or the day before that, I don't feel like checking that up right now) that the Werewolf game had really started. And I'm not quite sure that I understand what you mean by ''seemingly ecstatic reaction'', would you kindly elaborate on this?
And I actually believe it's a bit early for serious votes, I tend to wait a bit longer before making any real decision. Frankly so far, I'm leaning towards Ejnomad right now as he seems a bit jumpy according to me, but I won't make any decisions until I've seen more of this discuission.
And right here you dive straight under the question again.
AWdeV 说:
ejnomad07 说:
The first serious vote, and it couldn't have been more forced and contrived. It's too early to tell, but only scum normally think of such actions in black or white.
This is very well put: glad I wasn't the only one to spot it.
AWdeV 说:
How does this logic even work? I am confident, yes. I am confident because I feel Ejnomad is up to no good. My point is that he was unnecesarily attack Mag Ax and is now unnecesarily defensive. Saying "you don't have a point, you're a wolf" is the exact opposite of a point itself and also complete poison to a discussion.
I think the posts in the sign-up thread is slightly irrelevant, especially as my so-called skills were getting lynched first despite being innocent and also because that was before us getting the roles. I am however quite excited as this is only my second game and I find these games great fun.
Then why make them? Also; nice subtle reminder to us all there.
Nodscouter 说:
Personally, I think enjomads point aren't completely valid sometimes. For example his ''only scum sees things in black & white'' seems a bit off and
he seems to bring up points that are only semantics really. For now, that'll be a Vote: ejnomad07 but that's probably subject to change.
Spiffing, had I not just covered AWdeV's post I could have commented on original thought, instead, it feels more like a plagiarised argument to throw suspicion off you.
Nodscouter 说:
My lack of contribution is because I still don't have anything significant to contribute.
Adaham covers the gist of my answer in the next post, but seriously: with all that AWdeV has said, I cannot see anything that would be considered completely damning.
Adaham 说:
Vote: Kronic
The whole time issue thing doesn´t add up. He´s been online as recently as today and is posting all over the board in other games but neglects this here.
I'll be honest, it was pretty much solely due to procrastination. I have a good 5 pages to go through with a load of wall of text posts, and my enthusiasm for it had tanked after a bad week. Should be fine from now on: I don't intend to let a backlog like that line up again, because you cover why well enough here:
Adaham 说:
If you don´t post regularly, the amount of stuff to cover becomes less and less overviewable.
I've done my best to cover all of the important bits, and as of right now, my current "highest suspicion" player would be Ej, though as I stated earlier, I'm not about to throw a casual vote on him for it. Apologies to you all for taking so long, and thanks to Fris for the kick in the arse.
And apologies if I made any typos or grammatical cock ups. Imma get my morning coffee now. I'll be around to answer queries on my post for a fair bit.
Sure he has been aggressive, but as I said above this may just be his style. A statement such as this could easily achieved the same effect without the name calling.
So? Is a style beyond scrutiny? A style is not the pope, it's not infallible. I don't think the self-same effect could have been achieved without the "name calling". It obviously created an awful lot of discussion.
I wouldn't know, I'm coming at this from an entirely green point of view. You are however immediately staking out Ejnomad as a 'aggressive and vehement' player. You say that he adds these little snipes (a true enough point) and yet that is exactly what this is. I agree that thus far his discussion has been frontal and aggressive and that may not be the best approach, but I can't help but think that he's getting to you, which leads me on to why? Do you have something to hide? I personally haven't clocked you up as suspicious, but it's something to bear in mind.
a) They get on my nerves. If people would do that in real-life conversation, knowing full well I was listening in then I'd've punched them. They look very patronising.
b) The thing about a game like Werewolf is it's a lot of information and people have to work out what that information entails. For a game like this, it's best if people make up their own minds when reading information. That way they can bring in new ideas etc. Snipes like that influence people. They can distract and confuse by referring to age-old and sometimes irrelevant things and/or they influence people into taking the side of the, err, sniper. They limit the potential for new ideas and opinions because they influence people into taking sides sooner without really thinking about it.
Apologies from me for leaving the game for a bit, travelling to and from the city where I study and the place I grew up in and I visit weekends can be tiring and I also allowed myself to be distracted by the Eighty Years of War mod for Warband.
A hullo to Kronic, btw.
I'll now start with a seperate post to address Ej or else this would really be too big, again.
People that are angry make mistakes subcounciously, those snipes are meant to do that AFAIK.
Also note I will be reading up from tommorow onwards, if I don't paste I am lazy and should be classified as a wolf to motivate me.
The first serious vote, and it couldn't have been more forced and contrived. It's too early to tell, but only scum normally think of such actions in black or white. There is no 100% scum tell and I would never suggest there is so. However, if actions A, B, and C tend to be scummy and they do all of the above. It's a strong case. I'm surprised and disturbed by you feeling you had to start the bandwagons so early, and on someone who's shown to obviously be openly talking.
This bit throws me off: what bandwagons? Throwing a vote on you doesn't constitute a wagon. Besides, you're quick to condemn in no uncertain terms yourself, so on your logic, you must either be a wolf, or a hypocrite.
I concur, Ejnomad's the one I'm leaning most heavily towards casting my vote, he's been throwing firm accusation and baiting from the get-go, in large contrast to the status quo. There's really very little else going on, and nothing solid enough to base a vote on, in my view.
AWdeV: I disagree. Ej's pressuring is giving me a very different feeling from Adaham's. He's clearly trying to actually find and not create something to analyze Magorian on. He's mentioning how Magorian was the last game seer and how that should have changed his playstyle, because he's trying to find if it indeed has changed, and in what way, if so.
Magorian having been seer in that game doesn't have a whole lot to do with this game. Yet, Ej focuses solely on that game, despite Magorian so far having acted exactly the same as in other games where he wasn't the seer. Why does Ej focus on this so much? It really does look exactly like he's trying to find things that suit him. Creating an image of Magorian he wants to show. He's finding as well as creating and the fact that he's being all metagamey at the very start of the game, so focused on one person, on one single part of that persons gaming history strikes me as, well, defamation. An attempt at discrediting him, weakening his position as soon as possible.
Hmm. I must admit, I was mistaken. I did think you brought it up. However. Yes, however. It's fairly minor. Magorian did bring it up, as a defense. Not only as defense however, but also as a comparison. He compared his unwillingness to vote so soon to every other game he played and in none of them did he vote so soon. The exception was your game where an early vote was mandatory.
What I meant was that, despite yours not being the only game Magorian alluded to, it was the only one you alluded to. Which is what I said. I said you were focusing solely on that game. It's not I who twists the facts, it's you. Ofcourse, it's also always a damn nifty catchprase to use. Where does this "again" come from though?
ejnomad07 说:
I brought it back up to refute him. Stop trying to twist the facts. Did I get too confrontational at your packy or are you that confused about our argument?
That's several nifty phrases to imply villainy. Regardless, you did not just bring it back up to refute him, you were hammering on it to defame him. As I said before. I'm still not twisting facts here.
And no, I am not confused by our argument. Although it is nice of you to ask. It's not as if implying there's more to an argument than there really is a good way to actually confuse people. AKA; you're setting up a smokescreen. Now, why would you do that? Hiding paws?
ejnomad07 说:
Oh and if you're going to get mad every time I mention your name when quoting someone else. Don't be a hypocrite.
What? Seriously, what do you mean? Do you mean your little snipes? That's not me getting mad over you mentioning me when quoting other people, that's me getting mad for pretending I'm not here. Acting as if I was dead.
So what do you have left to stand on if you throw out the seer argument. You going to try and build a case up based solely upon the idea I didn't like the fact he didn't join us in the random voting? Good Luck.
No, I'm not going to try and build a case based solely on that. You know that. I've said this several times. This is you twisting facts. I attacked you over this, yes. Your reaction however is what was most telling. You freaked out over nothing. You were rattled by my vote, and that's good enough for me to keep my vote on you.
And you were the only one pressing about with a serious vote already. Was it a serious vote for lynching or was it a joke? Make up your position already. Odd accusations? Naw, but Metagamey? A bit but discussion has to start somewhere.
It wasn't a serious vote, but now it is. I've been quite clear about my equally clear position too.
ejnomad07 说:
AWdeV 说:
Revilo 说:
Sure he has been aggressive, but as I said above this may just be his style. A statement such as this could easily achieved the same effect without the name calling.
So? Is a style beyond scrutiny? A style is not the pope, it's not infallible. I don't think the self-same effect could have been achieved without the "name calling". It obviously created an awful lot of discussion.
Agreeable point. I don't think anyones style should be shrugged off, but then again if that's your position you shouldn't be getting yourself in such a bother when I had a discussion with Mag on his monotone style. Pick a stance.
Hmm. Acceptable. I've been a bit too accepting of Mags laid-back thorough analysis style while being unreasonably aggressive towards more aggresive styles. I'll try to balance it out a bit better. There's definitely more passive people around anyways. Especially MaHuD playing his hide and seek again.
ejnomad07 说:
AWdeV 说:
ejnomad07 说:
There is no 100% scum tell and I would never suggest there is so. However, if actions A, B, and C tend to be scummy and they do all of the above. It's a strong case. I'm surprised and disturbed by you feeling you had to start the bandwagons so early, and on someone who's shown to obviously be openly talking.
You are perfectly confident with condemning a vocal, obviously openly talking player based on only a difference in playstyle? That's no actions A, B, or C, that's just you wanting him to vote and him not seeing the point. Also, a bandwagon is not made by one and claiming people "start" them makes no sense. It's people hopping on board of bandwagons without proper reasons that are the problem.
Who was condemning him? I was explaining why Random Voting gets the ball rolling and wondering why he wouldn't join in. At this point it's getting to the point you're doing an awfully good and obvious job of being Mag's public defender. Bandwagons have to start somewhere. So yes, A player can attempt to start a bandwagon. You're right about people hopping on board bandwagons can be the problem, but badly founded bandwagons are just as problematic.
Oh and I never said he did actions A, B, and C now did I? Did you see me start voting him up? Oh wait you're trying again to distort the facts and suggest I did. I'll get to that below.
This made me frown at you.
First, you attack, without voting, yes, Magorian. Because he didn't vote.
Second, you get called out on it. You then produce this "However, if actions A, B, and C tend to be scummy and they do all of the above. It's a strong case" as a reaction, as an explanation, an excuse to above.
From that, one can only infer that you thought you had a strong case against magorian, based on actions A, B, And C. You didn't outright say it, but you inferred it. I think you know you did exactly that. You don't need to vote for someone to condemn them.
Oh wait, you know that! Gasp! You're trying to set me up and then claiming I'm distorting ****. I'm not. You are.
ejnomad07 说:
AWdeV 说:
ejnomad07 说:
However, I again am surprised at how serious AwDeV has taken it for him to draw up a lynching point.
Stop that, it's silly. Don't go around adding such little snipes to each and every post. You're basically looking around and saying "I'm right aren't I? Just listen to what he did!" in rather unrelated matters. Say what you want but say it to me. Don't be so underhanded about it.
There's no actual factual content to contend with here. It's just a bashing rant disguised as a refute to the original point. If you can't refute the evidence then attack the player. Nice.
Likewise, there's no actual factual content to contend with here. It's just a scathing snipe based on avoiding the entire point of aforementioned rant. It wasn't an attack on the player. It was me asking you to stop making attacks on me, a player. Nice. Real nice. It was you who was attacking a player. Not even to his face. And then you turn it back on me. Nice. Classy.
ejnomad07 说:
AWdeV 说:
SootShade 说:
Then why make such an effort with smileys and "hahaha" to make it seem so?
No, you are bull****ting and looking more and more like a wolf to me.
As I said, I've always used emoticons. It's not any effort. If you think it unfairly influences people, just say it. I'll refrain from it but don't see the point, don't see the problem (you're the first to do so.) If that's not what you meant, then just say what you DO mean. You're being cryptic and then berating me for not understanding it. Also odd that you care about this and not the blatant sniping Ejnomad has made. Snipes like that that essentially do the same thing but without livening up conversation.
Paranoid? You haven't addressed anyone that's shot your voting points to all hell, nor have you addressed the vote against you for the same reason. I'm alarmed how your first post ever picked to ignore all the talk totally.
That first post was an attempt at drawing you out. I took what you yourself said, applied it to you, used it against you. Those WERE voting points, but the vote they were points for was a suspicion. I wanted to rattle your cage and it evidently worked. Irrelevant whether anyone shot that down or not, it wasn't important. The reaction was.
If it's my attention you wanted then yes you now have it. As for a rattled cage. You're the one floundering here with some stretched facts, and basing a voting campaign of "He's Too Aggressive".
I'm neither confused, as you said above, nor floundering. Again, also not basing a voting campaing on you being too aggressive either.
ejnomad07 说:
AWdeV 说:
ejnomad07 说:
Yes, you're right others have been talking, but that's a straw man argument on your part. Few have been talking but all of them? Look at Nodscouter's post that was previous to yours. Everyone's been talking eh?
Oh shut up, that's hardly relevant and you know it. Moreover you yourself said the whole point of the votes was to generate discussion. Mine did. Numbers etcetera, that's all semantics. Nit-picking if you wish. Irrelevant nits too. Why do you add it then, besides trying to make my character look suspect? Hmm?
Yes, your nit was irrelevant. You didn't refute the point. You just attacked the player. The fact is you're trying to supplant the fact you were attacking one of the few vocal players having a discussion with an obvious misdirection of the present state. It was an easy and cheap attack for you to make founded on some shoddy points that were called out within posts. I don't know if you ignored Nod's blatant bad post or not, but that alone should have been obvious had you seen it. Another distortion of the facts.
Holy ****. You're seriously attacking me for saying "everybody has been talking"? I'm not sure if you've read that post, here it is, or if you're unfamiliar with the concept of "context" but I said that to illustrate that everybody in the thread so far, had been talking. And that therefore, I wasn't attacking you for being vocal. EVERYONE WAS VOCAL, if about different topics. It doesn't matter what Nodscouter was blabbering about, he was shown to obviously be openly talking. Just like you. Just like me. Just like Magorian and Adaham and Dryvus and Vadermath and Sootshade and Mahud and, hell, even like FrisianDude. Dammit, I never attacked you for that, however it is an easy and cheap way of demeaning someone's attack. This, again, is you distorting the facts. This, again, is you pretending to be a victim of underhanded attacks. This, again, is you being underhanded, setting up verbal traps, distorting facts, taking things out of context, bull****ting like a yak with diarrhea.
ejnomad07 说:
AWdeV 说:
ejnomad07 说:
SootShade 说:
AWdeV 说:
Now THAT's bull****.
I always use emoticons but I'm sorry if seeing an angry face makes you think angry thoughts. I don't really see how that can be my fault, but fine, I'll tone it down.
You know as well as I do that Trollshade doesn't need your help to form his opinions. Yet, you do anyway. Why is that? Testing to see which way the wind is blowing? Supporting notions that might damage me? Anyway, where did I do that? Twice now? I'll attend to his "point" later on in this post, but really.
You're the one attacking me with a vote remember? I can't help the fact if my refutes are making you look bad, and helping Troll's point. Then again, your posts to me are really what's helping him. Maybe if you spent more time refuting him and not trying to dream up a reason to lynch me you wouldn't still be in a position of having his vote on you, but I suppose you really can't when his points are correct about you.
Yes, I am the one attacking you with a vote. Is that relevant? This is about you and Sootshade. He doesn't need you to support his point. You know that. You saying "he did, twice now" is not a refute. It's not helping Troll's point. My posts aren't helping him either. I can't refute him, all he says is "my gut says you're a wolf, you're typing bull****." That's impossible to refute. It's senseless blabber. His "gut-feelings" are a cop-out. You keep saying he has points about me, but I really can't find them. It's bull**** this, bull**** that. Where's the fricking point?! I've asked him thrice over, yet he keeps going on with it!
Right. No. I've found it.
It started with this. Sootshade, coming to your rescue. Then comes Dryvus, who, stonedly, points out something in a way he later says he didn't mean. Yet, Sootshade picked it up. here. What it looks like so far is Sootshade coming to your rescue, then thinking he has support from Dryvus and pressing on. Right. Noted.
I then say that you could apply those standards you were attacking Mag with could be applied to anyone. Then, for a while, is nothing from him. Then a post from you. He then makes a cryptic remark about me being confident. I say I am confident. Cue him asking me about emoticons. I don't understand why. I answer to the best of my posibility. Somehow, somehwere, I've missed his point. The only point I could discover is that, apparently, making emoticons means you're pretending to be confident. Is that the vaunted point? No, probably not. Apparently, however, in his short posts I'm apparently picking on a minor detail. What is the minor detail? What is the bigger picture? I thought he meant I should stop using emoticons because they can influence people as your snipes can. Fair enough. I've stopped using them. However, that's not what he meant! I asked him what his point was, but he didn't respond. Then comes your post.
After that, he says his point was that I was pretend-confident. He's wrong. Oopsie. That was his vaunted point. Not much of it. Right. I missed his point that I didn't have a point and because I don't have a point I'm a wolf. Right. I then made my first big-ass post. He says it "seems better". And makes a big post later. I'll address that afterwards. Tomorrow probably. It's nearly bed time for me and I've been working on only this post for over an hour.
ejnomad07 说:
AWdeV 说:
ejnomad07 说:
AWdeV 说:
I'm keeping this vote here, nice and snug. Apparently mr. Aggressive can't handle being voted for. Why? It's only one vote and as you can see it clearly generates plenty of discussion. Wasn't that why you were attacking Magorian for not voting? Because you felt he was trying to avoid discussion about him and his reasons? Or is it okay to discuss things, just as long as it isn't about you?
I also don't like his attempts to confuse the main argument to support himself here. I was questioning Mag for not even random voting with the town. How can you equate my issue on random votes to your serious vote? There is a major difference between the two I would say.
I'm still here you know. I don't like YOUR attempts of underhandedly and sneakily convincing people that I'm no good. Talking about me as if I'm not here is always a good way to make people believe that. Turn your foes into a "they" and they become much easier to hate. Why do you keep hammering on Mag not "even random" voting? He's here, he's discussing, why is that such a big problem? A different way is not a valid way, is that it? How can I equate our votes? Better yet, why can't I? Ofcourse there's a difference between the two. You vote Mag because of bull****. I voted to lure you out and am keeping my vote on you because you're definitely rattled.
Again distortion of the facts and way off the mark. Is he here? Is he discussing? I'd say his last post says otherwise AWdeV, and when did I vote for him? A blatant lie and completely my point on how your Bull****ting as you go.
I'm not responsible for Mags' posting. He was there, he had been discussing in a short enough time previously when I said that. Only after I said that did he come out and say that he wouldn't be posting. You can't hold that against me. When I said that, he'd been active the same day. Moreover, I still hadn't been distorting facts. What facts was I distorting? If your underhanded snipes weren't underhanded snipes than what were they? Insisting I'm distorting facts doesn't make it true! In fact, insisting is distorting!
From my point of view, it's you with Sootshade. I don't know what Dryvus thinks though, but I noticed this. Ofcourse, you'll say it's easy to notice such things when you're attacked by both.
Anyway, to me it looked as if you were trying to lure people into commenting on your behaviour (AKA, me) and then Sootshade to attack.
I'm not bull**** attacking you and I'm not crying wolf either. You two are an awful lot like packies (you the butch, he the *****) and I was merely posting that because I noticed it like that and was curious what Dryvus noticed. Sure enough, he noticed the same.
ejnomad07 说:
AWdeV 说:
SootShade 说:
AWdeV 说:
Sootshade; What point for Chrissakes? You say I was being confident, I said that was true. You say I used emoticons, I sarcastically/jokingly wonder what that matters? Is there some hidden extra underlying point or something? Did I miss a post?
How does this logic even work? I am confident, yes. I am confident because I feel Ejnomad is up to no good. My point is that he was unnecesarily attack Mag Ax and is now unnecesarily defensive. Saying "you don't have a point, you're a wolf" is the exact opposite of a point itself and also complete poison to a discussion.
What? Again, what? What the hell are you yammering about now? You obviously can defend yourself, and I obviously never said that. What I obviously, and logically, DID SAY, was that Sootshades' particular brand of arguing at the time; "gut says he wolf. he full of bull****" isn't arguing at all. I LITERALLY SAID THAT. I NEVER SAID YOU COULDN'T DEFEND YOURSELF. Don't act as if I did.
There, finished. I'll adress Shootshadesh other posht later.
in-post edit: Surprisingly, a ninja! Good luck with the exam Adaham!
So, a bit of a wrench has been thrown into my plans. The heater in my gf's room is broken, so her room is freezing. She'll likely be spending the night here, which means that I won't be able to stay up late which is when I can usually make the time to post. I'll see what I can do, but I may have to delay further. I really dislike doing that. Not only is it not fair to you guys, but I don't get to play, and when I finally can post all I'll be doing is playing catchup. Argh.
Alright, well, she's asleep. I'm not. I'll try to put some thoughts down quickly before I try to get back in bed.
AWdeV is trying to make more out of ejnomads discussion with me than is really there, to the point of even mistakenly claiming that he voted for me (which I believe was already mentioned). I think that it was pretty clear that ejnomad wasn't trying to get rid of me. Whether he was laying the groundwork for a future attack remains to be seen, but what has already transpired between the two of us cannot be viewed as scummy by itself. As for the nature of his defense, I would be doing largely the same. He is defending himself, but not abandoning a search for wolves to do so. It would appear to me that ejnomad has the village's best interests in mind. Of course it is far too early to write him off as innocent, but I cannot build a case against him from what I have read. AWdeV, on the other hand, is putting far too much effort into maintaining the "ejnomad is unnecessarily aggressive" opinion, which I find suspicious. Note that this is a different objection from Troll's, which was that he was trying to appear confident.
Which segues nicely into my criticism of Troll. Troll, that was a ****ty attack. If an argument is not presented confidently, it will not be taken seriously. Furthermore, noting continuously how you are uncertain and may be wrong is something that I find extremely wolfish, as it is an attempt to look like you don't already have all of the information. Of course AWdeV is not absolutely certain that ejnomad is evil, and I do not think for a moment that he would try to appear as if he did or expect anyone to believe him if he claimed to be. Not only is the attack itself wholly devoid of real substance, your reasoning was horrible. Use of smileys? Seriously?
Ejnomad, I brought up the last game only as a demonstration of my voting style. What gave me my information is wholly irrelevant. If you'd like another example, go back to TT. I didn't live long, but I didn't move my vote around much when I was alive. The most important thing here is that you can not demonstrate that there is information I can give to the village by voting that I can't give by discussing, and until you can do that I see no reason to change. End of discussion.
****ty attack? Yeah, mine tend to be, since I never manage to convince anyone of even the most obvious villains. Noting continuously I'm not certain? Wait, what, when? Seriously, the only time I said something like that was when Adaham noted how I seemed too certain of my case. I admitted that it had quite a bit to do with my gut, which is simply a fact. It doesn't change for **** that I'm absolutely certain that AWdeV is villain.
Anyways, you have missed my point completely, I think.
What I'm seeing in AWdeV's post is a wolf tactic I'm familiar with from a couple of cases. It was especially Vulkan's tactic in two games. In your own words he's "trying to make more out of ejnomads discussion with me than is really there", which half my point, though not the thing that struck off for me the most.
And that would be the fact that he's trying to make up with his confidence the lack of real reasoning. He's doing what Vulkan did successfully in two games; picking up on ****ty reasons to get reactions which he could twist to something completely else and use as 'proof'. The reason I'm so concerned about his apparent confidence is (aside from it being just that, apparent) is that showing of as confident of his claims he's plain trying to make himself sound believable with it instead of actual reasoning.
He's failing at it miserably compared to Vulkan, but the attempt is clear and if left to it he could probably convince quite a few of the players like Vulkan did, making **** up, misinterpreting everything, managed to convince everyone to lynch (or very nearly) quite a few times. Sadly it's the same stuff as with Vulkan himself; I suck at explaining it because it's too ****ing clear for me.
Then... Smileys?
Seriously. How ****ing many times I have to say that my point had nothing to do with smileys. While those were probably somewhat the part of AWdeV's attempt to fake confidence, the point was the general way the post was written with the feel "hah, I caught you wolfie!", after he hadn't even got any nervous reaction from Ej.
I've said it. It's as ****ing simple as it can be, so if you don't believe it I can't really try to make anything more complicated of it to convince you.
**** it, I'm pretty sure this is exactly what I ended up with when attacking Vulkan, too.
Well I for one am finding it hard to get past this Ejnomad/Sootshade - AWdeV debacle and form opinions on the other players because a fair majority of them simply aren't posting frequently or in detail enough. Vadermath is by far the worst by not only not posting often but failing to deliver upon his promise of a list of his suspicions. There's no excuse now either, as he has been killed off in the other WW game going on at the same time as this and yet still no sign of the aformentioned post he promised. It's very hard to formulate an opinion when there's nothing to base it on - it would just be baseless accusations.
It's a similar sort of scenario with MaHuD and Nodscouter. Nodscouter has given his opinion but still hasn't justified it in what I consider sufficient detail, instead resorting to points that others had already raised and adding nothing of his own. MaHuD has stated that he isn't going to focus on this game until the other is finished, which is only going to hinder the village, and yet then decides to renege on this decision:
MaHuD 说:
People that are angry make mistakes subcounciously, those snipes are meant to do that AFAIK.
Also note I will be reading up from tommorow onwards, if I don't paste I am lazy and should be classified as a wolf to motivate me.
I don't have anything concrete yet, but all the same I would like to hear from Vader and MahuD especially, as well as more from Nodscouter. There's only so much you can read into with the current amount of posters, and it irks me not being able to see the larger picture.
I´m sorry to have been absent myself, my exam didn´t go as I wanted it to go and I was pretty beat down for the last two days. I was hoping others would carry the torch in the meanwhile, but stuff has been quieting down a lot of late. Everybody seems to be sitting on the fence and waiting for something to happen.
I´ll be back later today and make a LoS. I know some people don´t like them and others think that they aren´t useful, but at the current state I want to have some overview of what we had from which people so far. Maybe that´ll help us move forward again.
I´m sorry to have been absent myself, my exam didn´t go as I wanted it to go and I was pretty beat down for the last two days. I was hoping others would carry the torch in the meanwhile, but stuff has been quieting down a lot of late. Everybody seems to be sitting on the fence and waiting for something to happen.
Close to what I was going to say. I've had exams and I have them today so you will hear next from me tomorrow for sure. I'll get back with everyone at that time.
I will say my vote on Nodscouter is well placed and we should consider him for lynching. I consider him likely a wolf, and it's not like we lose much anyway if I'm wrong, and he's better than options like Vadermath because they haven't been openly resistant to contribution.
Okay, here we go, a small LoS with a bit on everybody...
1. Magorian - My thoughts about Magorian are mostly based on his last post, considering this has been his only really game-related post since the beginning bit with Ejnomad. While I´m not completely with him on the bit about AWdeV and Ejnomad, I do agree with his opinion about SootShade (more on that below). He´s careful and logical, so if he´s evil, it´ll be hard to derive from his posts. One more reason to have more (and regular) input from him.
2. Sootshade - Now I really like Troll usually, and I think a gut-feeling is as good a reason as it gets. But usually there´s stuff out there that can either confirm or reject those gut feelings. This time around, though, I feel as if SootShade is exploiting this stance a bit too much. His attack on AWdeV does seem contrieved (whereas he accused me of making up stuff earlier on) and far-fetched. Most worrying is that his belief in his gut-feeling makes him repeat his stance on AWdeV over and over again without adding anything new. If there´s anybody who has shown signs of tunnel-vision so far, then it´s SootShade. Almost all of his contributions (and especially the ones of late) are directed towards the whole AWdeV issue and it feels as if it´s an easy way out to avoid talking about other people. All in all, it doesn´t smell quite kosher to me and I get the feeling SootShade is hiding behind his overly dedicated gut-feeling...
4. Regendur - Hey, talking about MIA´s...his last post is from the 3rd of December (6 days ago!) and he´s dropped off the face of the world. One could argue that this might have been due to some unpleasant questions from Ejnomad directed towards him, but that´s speculative. While I thought he was fine after my beginning "interrogation", it now suddenly seems that he has something to hide after all. Unfortunately, with no posts from him, it´s hard to judge him. He needs to be prodded immediately and if that doesn´t help, he needs to be replaced (even though I prefer that he just shows up).
5. Vadermath - Meh, another liar. Even though it took FrisianDude two days to prod him after Vader broke his promise, there´s still no sign of life or replacement from him. Unfortunately it´s not the first time he drops off the face of a WW game, but I hope this time he´ll be replaced quicker.
6. AWdeV - Most of the criticism of AWdeV is based on his slightly exagurrated equation with regards to Ejnomads playing style. SootShade is accusing him of being "overly confident" in this post, but to me it felt more like pure cynism...which again I can understand if I think of the patronizing vibes coming off Ejnomads early stirups. Strangely enough, I never had really the feeling that AWdeV is a baddy, also because I don´t think he´d oppose a vocal player like Ejnomad so early on if not necessary. Does AWdeV´s behaviour make sense as a villain? Sorry, not in my book. Right now I´m thinking there´s some baddies parking their suspicions on AWdeV because he´s an easy target due to his aggressive reaction towards Ejnomad.
7. Ejnomad - The one thing I still disagree with, is that his posts (especially when full of quotes), don´t always get across a clear point. He stirs here and there and everywhere, and while that is all nice and helpful for the discussion, it sometimes can blur the matters at hand a bit. Still, the longer this day takes, the less I´m getting the feeling that Ejnomad is trying to lead the village astray, but genuinely trying to help. It will probably take me some more time before I can get a clear opinion on him.
8. Kronic - Nice monster post, but then back to the shadows? I´m especially wary of people that contribute big time when the pressure is on, but are nowhere to be seen when the sea is calm. This looks a lot like someone´s just posting to save their ass, rather than trying to find villains. His continued absence makes me think again that he´s scum, as he clearly showed that he´s capable of (giving the impression that he´s) contributing, but he chooses most of the time not to.
9. Revilo - I wish all first timers were so self-assured, logical and dedicated. I can see nothing disturbing in his posts so far, and nobody needs to drag him out of a corner to post, he takes the initiative to contribute on a regular basis and so he´s one of the few players right now that actually gives me an overall positive vibe.
10. Dryvus - There was a moment where I thought "Wow", because I´ve never seen Dryvus post so extensively before. While that assured me a bit of his innocence, I´d like him to take the initiative more and stir up some stuff by himself, instead of always clinging onto other peoples discussions. So while he definitely posts more than he ever did in the game where he was a wolf, it could still only be a new tactic. Somewhere in between, please more!
11. MaHuD - I´ll take him up by his word and consider him a wolf because he didn´t post according to his promise. Unfortunately, there´s more like him and I have only one vote to place. His "if I don´t post I should be considered a wolf" could be a great double-bluff, keeping people from actually suspecting him. The lack of contribution also makes it hard to make any more elaborate judgement. Fortunately, the other game will be over soon and then he´ll have no more excuse to lay so low. Still, his input would be really appreciated, as up till now he´s pretty much a blank card in the game and he usually is able to stir things up a bit.
12. Nodscouter - So, here we go, Ejnomads favourite target. His hesitance to commit himself was indeed striking, especially when compared to the other game (Innocent Inn), where he was much more open on the first day. But like with many new players, I´m getting the feeling that it´s very easy to corner him and turn anything he says into whatever suits the case. As a result, he gets even more quiet and hopes the storm passes by. That could all be considered very scummy, but it could be also a nice scapegoat for scum.
Obviously I´m very undecided yet. By now we have a pretty big lurking problem. Vadermath, Regendur and MaHuD are pretty much MIA, Kronic would be even worse if he hadn´t shown up for one big post, and the likes of Nodscouter and Dryvus drop in occasionally, but leave little to work with. Throw in that Magorian also hasn´t yet fully arrived in this game, and we have half of the village not (or barely) contributing.
@Mod: Any news from Vader? If not, I know you´ve got replacements waiting to be kicked in. And while you´re at it, have you heard anything from Regendur? At least he should be prodded!
2. Sootshade - Now I really like Troll usually, and I think a gut-feeling is as good a reason as it gets. But usually there´s stuff out there that can either confirm or reject those gut feelings. This time around, though, I feel as if SootShade is exploiting this stance a bit too much. His attack on AWdeV does seem contrieved (whereas he accused me of making up stuff earlier on) and far-fetched. Most worrying is that his belief in his gut-feeling makes him repeat his stance on AWdeV over and over again without adding anything new. If there´s anybody who has shown signs of tunnel-vision so far, then it´s SootShade. Almost all of his contributions (and especially the ones of late) are directed towards the whole AWdeV issue and it feels as if it´s an easy way out to avoid talking about other people. All in all, it doesn´t smell quite kosher to me and I get the feeling SootShade is hiding behind his overly dedicated gut-feeling...
I think I've already explained quite a few times why I have no reason to doubt my gut in this case. If the fact that I simply admit that it's partly my gut what makes me so certain makes you think I'm trying to use this to explain what I'm doing, I can only conclude that I simply think of things very differently than most in this game, or I simply ****ed up my explanation. Which seems to be case in every game.
Also, talking about my accusation about you earlier in the game, what I was talking about was the exact same thing as in AWdeV's case, actually. At this point I can't say much of that, and for now I think it was simple pressuring, but I think this might help you understand my case about AWdeV:
Like he already somewhat admitted, his first attack on Ejnomad wasn't based on much, and was apparently an attempt to make pressure. Much like your attack on Regendur. However, while I'm leaning towards believing you were simply looking for reactions, AWdeV's not. What he tried to do wasn't just an attempt to create pressure make Ejnomad show reactions that might be judged as wolfish. He's trying to twist Ejnomad's reactions to look wolfish. Exactly what Vulkan did to fool everyone to lynch Verbeek in the Siege of Bethaa game. His choice of target wasn't the best one, but one thing about this tactic he's trying that the target doesn't exactly need to show anything suspicious, as long as he can make it look like it. Which he's doing by faking confidence. Once again, I'm not accusing him of being confident, but faking it. Another thing that you people manage to somehow misunderstand over and over again.
Other than that, how am I "repeating my stance on AWdeV over and over again without adding anything new"? I've had to repeat my explanation time and time again, but I just don't see where you get this from, even though I'm having hard time doing anything about AWdeV's case as he seems to have either chosen to ignore me or forgot to reply to me properly. Tunnel vision? Hardly, though I can admit that I've yet to say much on anyone else. I'm going to have to do that too, yes, but until now I have been focusing on AWdeV because I want him lynched. I can tell you who else I suspect, fine, but I want you people to understand what I'm saying and actually react on it. I'm happy that some of you actually notice my attempts, though quite a few more don't seem to be quite interested in it.
Seriously. People misunderstanding everything I say really is starting to piss me off. I'm having hard time believing it's just that I'm not presenting my case right.
