[Werewolf: Archives] Werewolf: The Tower of Games. WEREWOLVES WIN.

[Phonemelter]

The only way I can know that Adaham is a wolf whilst being evil, is by being his packmate. Yet he aggrees that I'm not his packmate.

I think we have already established that you are not a wolf; that isn't the question. The main question is are you a seer, plain innocent, or the magic user.

If I am the magic user, why would I first declare Adaham's death, and then kill him in the night?

A few reasons: First, you may have declared to try and actually get him lynched. Possibly by being so bold, you were thinking to get at least one more voter on him. Secondly, since he ended up not being lynched, you may have wanted to eliminate opposition before they eliminated you.

The logical solution, which both Adaham and Xardob thought of, is that I am actually the seer.
Because if I am the seer, I can know that Adaham is a wolf. But I may lack the "physicial" evidence to back this up.

The only flaw to that is; why didn't I roleclaim?

I am pretty sure everyone was thinking you could be a seer by the statements you were making, and lack of evidence. I have no idea why you didn't roleclaim, or if this post is even a roleclaim itself. The only thing I do know is that dealing with you is always a tricky situation.

So really, there is no reason that Xardob votes for me. Not any reason that supports the villagers anyway.

I can still see a reason based off my thoughts on you: you haven't said anything of use until now, you have been giving no backing to your votes, you have been completely vague to whole time, etc.

As far as Adaham goes, he acts as a leader pretty much every game; you can't use that to deduct "all leaders are wolves."

First, I never said all leaders are wolves. You already know about his aggressiveness and such, he was leading a bit too "over the top" I suppose you could say. I brought together my evidence to infer that he was the wolf.

Hyperbole to get a point across. It is difficult to vote for some "leaders" because it is a toss up between whether they are good or bad. You could say Ej was too "over the top" in being aggressive as well (when he was playing), but he ended up being the bodyguard. That is why I do not look merely at attitudes themselves with trying to figure out peoples' alignments.

Second, you can't get all suspicious of a person because they voted for the guy that happened to be the wolf, now can you? Well, you can, but it's not the best thing to do in my opinion.

Why is it not a good idea? Shouldn't we be considering all possibilities? There are times when wolves vote for each other to throw people off. How can an innocent know when or how often this happens? Adaham was in the position where there wasn't enough votes to lynch him, so it still is a possibility his packie was one of those votes on him.

I know that you don't understand my way of thinking and the evidence I bring up, but as I said before, I do. My guess turned out to be right. Perhaps something to think about in future games?

And my guess on Temu turned out to be correct last game, so what? That is a bit of a cocky statement you made. You end up making one correct guess and are now entitled to tell others how they should play the game and who to listen to?                                                 

I assumed it was obvious, apparently not. Do you remember Xardob's previous relationship with Adaham? Now, you should be able to think of it from there. If not, keep trying, it's for your own good.

*See previous statement

Since you are the one who keeps talking about "evidence," I would like to see some, or at least expand on the idea. I am not the one who is thinking Xardob is a wolf right now, so it wouldn't make sense for me to look back at quotes that I am going to say "so what" to. You need to be explaining your arguments, not me. I know they were agreeing with each other, but at times I was agreeing with them too.

Now, about MaHuD and his "wolfish" behaviour: You're right, he isn't showing much about his thoughts (at least until now), but I feel that the fact that he's still being active in the discussions counters that, it shows he's not lurking, which is a strategy some wolves will use. Even his use of one-liners makes me believe he might be innocent, as he is clearly not afraid to show wolfish behaviour, whereas a wolf would usually be much more sensitive. He is being a bit aggressive, but not overly.

How can he be an active part of discussions without sharing his thoughts? How does making one-liners make him more innocent in your eyes when his playstyle typically always smells wolfish? Why would wolves be more sensitive and more lurky? How does saying "you are a wolf and will die" not make him overly aggressive?

A lot of what you have stated is never really the case, and how would you know wolf strategies when you have not played a Werewolf game before? What you see as traces of an innocent, I see as traces of a possible bad guy. There is no evidence other than speculation over playstyle here. 

 

[Icey Fresh Werewolf]

Hyperbole to get a point across. It is difficult to vote for some "leaders" because it is a toss up between whether they are good or bad. You could say Ej was too "over the top" in being aggressive as well (when he was playing), but he ended up being the bodyguard. That is why I do not look merely at attitudes themselves with trying to figure out peoples' alignments.

I agree that you shouldn't look at the attitudes only, but they're still important, are they not? I'm no psychology expert, but I can still infer certain things based on attitudes. Not that I'm always right, of course. Sometimes, inferring based on attitude is the best course to go.

Why is it not a good idea? Shouldn't we be considering all possibilities? There are times when wolves vote for each other to throw people off. How can an innocent know when or how often this happens?

Yes, consider all possibilities, but if you're immediately inferring something when there is clearly another possibility that could have happened you're not really considering all possibilities equally, now are you?

And my guess on Temu turned out to be correct last game, so what? That is a bit of a cocky statement you made. You end up making one correct guess and are now entitled to tell others how they should play the game and who to listen to?

I'm sorry, I missed the part where I was ordering you to do things and telling you how to play the game. All I can see is me saying that my thinking can work even if you don't understand it. Also, I was suggesting a possible way of looking at things, after all, shouldn't we consider all possibilities?                                                 

*See previous statement

Since you are the one who keeps talking about "evidence," I would like to see some, or at least expand on the idea. I am not the one who is thinking Xardob is a wolf right now, so it wouldn't make sense for me to look back at quotes that I am going to say "so what" to. You need to be explaining your arguments, not me. I know they were agreeing with each other, but at times I was agreeing with them too.

I wasn't exactly thinking that you should go and find a quote, I thought your memory could serve you. Xardob was defending Adaham. I didn't think it was that hard.

How can he be an active part of discussions without sharing his thoughts?

-Well, by being active I meant more in the sense of "not lurking", as in he's still posting and saying what he thinks even if he's not really going any deeper.

How does making one-liners make him more innocent in your eyes when his playstyle typically always smells wolfish? Why would wolves be more sensitive and more lurky?

-I think (emphasis on "think") that wolves would normally become more paranoid just because they are the wolves. They would focus much more on not getting caught rather than finding out who is the wolf (as they already know who the wolves are). This could lead into aggression as they become frustrated if people start to think that they are the wolf, and they will try harder to seem less suspicious. Again, note that I am no psychology expert, but this sort of thinking seems reasonable.

MaHuD is definately not paranoid in that sense, he seems particularly careless about how others think of him (as shown by his one-liners and usual lack of explanation), his sole intention seems to be finding out who the wolf is.

How does saying "you are a wolf and will die" not make him overly aggressive?

That statement does make him seem aggressive, and I'll admit that he is a bit cocky, but he usually doesn't go into insults (from what I've seen and can remember, anyway). He doesn't go into large explanations of why Xardob would be the wolf or not very much.

A lot of what you have stated is never really the case

-Opinion.

, and how would you know wolf strategies when you have not played a Werewolf game before?

-The ones that I know have been explained to me already by veterans, the rest I think up. I'm not saying that those strategies would actually work, but, like you said, don't we have to look at all possibilities?

What you see as traces of an innocent, I see as traces of a possible bad guy.

-Which is why we need to try and look at this from different viewpoints.
[/quote]

So far you seem like you're not a werewolf, but we always need to keep the possibility in our heads that any one of us could be the werewolf.

 

[MaHuD]

I can still see a reason based off my thoughts on you: you haven't said anything of use until now, you have been giving no backing to your votes, you have been completely vague to whole time, etc.

Oh really?

I thought it was generally accepted that that is who I am.

I think the real problem is the fact that you can't cope with the fact that Icy Fresh and me can also find wolves. Each in our own way.

 

[Phonemelter]

Yes really; your previous post was probably the most you have contributed all game. Again, you keep making vague statements about your role, which is rubbing me the wrong way. I don't care whether you have claimed or not, but I do not like the way you have gone about addressing your role, if you even have one.

The problem isn't that I can't cope with thinking both you and Icy to be bad guys, but that we also have AW, Grumph, and Overlord who haven't said much. Any one of them could very well be evil, but I have little to go off of them today. Grumph fit in the same boat as Icy yesterday, just calling Adaham aggressive and using that as enough evidence to warrent a vote (seemingly attempting to start a bandwagon), so my suspicion still stands with him (on the magic user side though, since he was attacked). The whole situation is frustrating to say the least, especially since we have no idea if our moderator has given pokes to anyone since he didn't assign a backup.

Now to address Icy:

I agree that you shouldn't look at the attitudes only, but they're still important, are they not? I'm no psychology expert, but I can still infer certain things based on attitudes. Not that I'm always right, of course. Sometimes, inferring based on attitude is the best course to go.

Attitudes are important, but it depends on their context and comparison player style (to some extent).

Yes, consider all possibilities, but if you're immediately inferring something when there is clearly another possibility that could have happened you're not really considering all possibilities equally, now are you?

You are misinterpreting the point. You were saying that "you can't get suspicious of a person because they voted for the guy that happened to be the wolf." First off, I think that statement may have been to give yourself some leeway, but I was just saying to keep an open mind, while your statement here is saying that.....I am not doing so? You may need to rethink the logic here.

I'm sorry, I missed the part where I was ordering you to do things and telling you how to play the game. All I can see is me saying that my thinking can work even if you don't understand it. Also, I was suggesting a possible way of looking at things, after all, shouldn't we consider all possibilities?

Again, it is hyperbole to make a point of where you were going with the statement. By saying.... "My guess turned out to be right. Perhaps something to think about in future games?".....You are suggesting that we should listen to you more often, are you not? Yet, why should I listen to you if I see that your reasoning or logic is off? I can still consider different possibilities without agreeing with your reasoning.

I wasn't exactly thinking that you should go and find a quote, I thought your memory could serve you. Xardob was defending Adaham. I didn't think it was that hard.

I have already said more than once that I know this and even agreed to some of the points they were agreeing with each other on. I also have said that even I defended Adaham a little when questioning Grumph. I do not see why Xardob defending Adaham makes him more of a wolf than anyone else here.

-Well, by being active I meant more in the sense of "not lurking", as in he's still posting and saying what he thinks even if he's not really going any deeper.

In a way, you are true, but you have to ask the question: "Is this helping the village?"  There is a difference between saying what you think and helping to find bad guys.

-I think (emphasis on "think") that wolves would normally become more paranoid just because they are the wolves. They would focus much more on not getting caught rather than finding out who is the wolf (as they already know who the wolves are). This could lead into aggression as they become frustrated if people start to think that they are the wolf, and they will try harder to seem less suspicious. Again, note that I am no psychology expert, but this sort of thinking seems reasonable.

Nodscouter became paranoid. You became a bit paranoid. Everyone can get paranoid. Lack of paranoia doesn't mean someone is necessarily innocent as well. If you look at Temu last game, he kept his cool throughout the game whilst being about as active as MaHuD is this game, and he turned out to be a wolf. Same with Xardob a few games back as well. Also, most people tend to try hard to be less suspicious whether they are evil or not.

What this amounts to is that the absence of the traits and attitudes you are looking at doesn't make someone more innocent than guilty. MaHuD is now a new player and knows the general "symptoms of bad guys;" they can very well be avoided.

MaHuD is definately not paranoid in that sense, he seems particularly careless about how others think of him (as shown by his one-liners and usual lack of explanation), his sole intention seems to be finding out who the wolf is.

How man his sole intention be finding out who the other bad guys when, as you put it, he is making one-liners and lacking explanation? He is the only person who benefits from it.

He doesn't go into large explanations of why Xardob would be the wolf or not very much.

So not explaining his votes very well gives his arguments more credibility? Yes, he did make some sort of justification recently, but the vote he is referring to I think was just an attempt to get MaHuD
to give an actual reason for voting.

A lot of what you have stated is never really the case

-Opinion.

It doesn't always work, does it not? That is not an opinion.

 

[Xardob]

So really, there is no reason that Xardob votes for me. Not any reason that supports the villagers anyway.

That was all you had against me? Really, MaHuD? I'm not impressed.

If you think that's the reason I think you're suspicious, then you aren't following the thread very closely. The part of my reasons that you posted is only a couple of a long list, that goes all the way back to your first vote on AWdeV (which is still unexplained). If you want, I can even do a post by post analysis of your participation to refresh your memory.

I thought it was generally accepted that that is who I am.

Typical Adaham. 

Not this time.

Who else likes the sound of irony before sleep?

I think the real problem is the fact that you can't cope with the fact that Icy Fresh and me can also find wolves. Each in our own way.

Yeah, right, let's see if I remember how you found your wolf. I may be paraphrasing a little here, but I don't think it's too far from the truth. *MaHuD pops out of lurking after a long absence* Adaham is a wolf. Sorry if I don't quite buy this, but best case scenario here, it was all sheer luck.

Xardob was defending Adaham.

Oh, please, tell me where, I must have forgotten this.

Well, by being active I meant more in the sense of "not lurking", as in he's still posting and saying what he thinks even if he's not really going any deeper.

Saying what he thinks? Eventually, yes. But no where near often enough to be an innocent. This must be the first day he posted his opinion before the entire village. Look at his other days and tell me what is his opinion on the various subjects the village was discussing. Tell me who he suspected on day two, or even on day three, before he jumped on Adaham's wagon. He may not be the biggest lurker in this village, and it shows nicely the size of the hole this village is in, but in some ways, this makes him even more suspicious, because he still cares enough to appear active.

That statement does make him seem aggressive, and I'll admit that he is a bit cocky, but he usually doesn't go into insults (from what I've seen and can remember, anyway). He doesn't go into large explanations of why Xardob would be the wolf or not very much.

And why is that any good?

 

[MaHuD]

So it's luck now? You are falling apart Xardob. I give you room to play, but yet you only make the room smaller. Haha as if that's all I have. You still haven't figured it out yet? Thats quite amusing. Please entertaon me more....
Someone has this quote as his signature. „He who is always a step ahead, walks alone”.
Btw rougly 35 hours left till grumph is back.

ps; the text may seem a bit weird, bt it will make sense soon enough.

 

[Xardob]

So it's luck now?

Way to miss the point.

And there's nothing to figure out.

 

[MaHuD]

If you say so. :O

 

[Overlord-]

Well, by being active I meant more in the sense of "not lurking", as in he's still posting and saying what he thinks even if he's not really going any deeper.

Saying what he thinks? Eventually, yes. But no where near often enough to be an innocent.

Oh my, we have gone through this so many times.

 

[Grumph]

Also, where is Grumph?

Again, my apologies. But I have been busy on skiing vacation, and I've had absolutely no contact to the wide world. I had hoped you had all got my PM, but it seems you didn't.

I'll try to conjure a post this day or tomorrow, but most likely tomorrow: I just came out of a bus which I've been sitting in for 21 hours, and I am quite the tired one.

 

[Phonemelter]

I give you room to play, but yet you only make the room smaller.

So apparently you dictate something that we don't have control over?

Vote: MaHuD

This is getting really absurd.

 

[Overlord-]

Indeed, there are now two people making one-line votes. Not that I would prefer a **** worth essay.

 

[Phonemelter]

There is a difference between one-line votes and one-line contributions. My current vote on MaHuD is well justified, Overlord.

 

[MaHuD]

Ofcourse, I believe you. 

 

[Icey Fresh Werewolf]

I give you room to play, but yet you only make the room smaller.

So apparently you dictate something that we don't have control over?

Vote: MaHuD

This is getting really absurd.

You only voted him after he made that statement? Hm...

 

[Phonemelter]

That statement doesn't sound suspicious to you at all?

 

[MaHuD]

Xardob and Facemelter, voting for self preservation since 2011.

Nah, really I am waiting for Grumph's post here.

 

[Grumph]

Right.

Adaham was the wolf, and he died attacking me. I saw you were all discussing how, who, and why, and I am going to start out with explaining why; I am the Herbalist. I can either poison people or protect people, and last night I chose to protect myself. I assume this lead to the fortunate death of Adaham. Now, some may argue that this isn't the right time to roleclaim, but I dunno, I just felt I needed to put it out there - partly to answer half of your questions.

Furthermore, the last many replies from MaHuD is a bit annoying, being oneliners and all. It seems MaHuD is trying to put out minimal information about anything, including his opinions of different people. This is quite annoying and doesn't contribute to anything at all but my(and I guess maybe Facemelter and Xardobs') irritation. I would've included Icey Fresh in that parenthesis too, but too me it seems that he tries to hard to defend MaHuD's oneliners.

I feel we need to put more focus on Overlord too. The only thing you(Overlord) have given to the discussion as of now is one-line comments like MaHuD(arranged teamwork between them?) which doesn't really do anything.

So it's luck now? You are falling apart Xardob. I give you room to play, but yet you only make the room smaller. Haha as if that's all I have. You still haven't figured it out yet? Thats quite amusing. Please entertaon me more....
Someone has this quote as his signature. „He who is always a step ahead, walks alone”.

What is there to figure out? That you are the wolf? Why is it amusing? Help him out. Tell him and us what there is to figure out. Except, that you wont if what there is to figure out is that you are the wolf.

 

[Icey Fresh Werewolf]

I would've included Icey Fresh in that parenthesis too, but too me it seems that he tries to hard to defend MaHuD's oneliners.

I never really defended him, I only gave a suggestion as to why he might not be the wolf. I never made a statement in which I thought it was fact that he was innocent.

 

[MaHuD]

Right.

Adaham was the wolf, and he died attacking me. I saw you were all discussing how, who, and why, and I am going to start out with explaining why; I am the Herbalist. I can either poison people or protect people, and last night I chose to protect myself. I assume this lead to the fortunate death of Adaham. Now, some may argue that this isn't the right time to roleclaim, but I dunno, I just felt I needed to put it out there - partly to answer half of your questions.

Furthermore, the last many replies from MaHuD is a bit annoying, being oneliners and all. It seems MaHuD is trying to put out minimal information about anything, including his opinions of different people. This is quite annoying and doesn't contribute to anything at all but my(and I guess maybe Facemelter and Xardobs') irritation. I would've included Icey Fresh in that parenthesis too, but too me it seems that he tries to hard to defend MaHuD's oneliners.

I feel we need to put more focus on Overlord too. The only thing you(Overlord) have given to the discussion as of now is one-line comments like MaHuD(arranged teamwork between them?) which doesn't really do anything.

So it's luck now? You are falling apart Xardob. I give you room to play, but yet you only make the room smaller. Haha as if that's all I have. You still haven't figured it out yet? Thats quite amusing. Please entertaon me more....
Someone has this quote as his signature. „He who is always a step ahead, walks alone”.

What is there to figure out? That you are the wolf? Why is it amusing? Help him out. Tell him and us what there is to figure out. Except, that you wont if what there is to figure out is that you are the wolf.

" I can either poison people or protect people ", so I don't see how Adaham died from that.