[Werewolf: Archives] Werewolf: In Soviet Russia - Herbalist wins

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Moss said:
FrisianDude said:
@Moss, I understand what you mean a bit better now, thanks for the explanation, however, I don't think that brushing all suspicions on Whoopin into one 'suspicious because suspicious' heap is quite justified.
There comes a point where you begin to wonder if somebody is just failing to get your point, or is actually trying to straw man you. I'm finding it pretty damn hard to believe you missed the two separate times where I pointed out that people had other reasons to be suspicious of Whoopin. It's starting to feel less like a problem with what I'm saying and more that you're trying to run interference on comments that might weaken the bandwagon.
Heh? If I wanted a bandwagon on Whoopin don't you think I'd have voted on him by now?
 
Sorry I've been away, several tonnes of coursework keeping me busy.

Wow, well that's a speedy bandwagon and a half. Personally, I'm still of the belief that Eternal is innocent, though admittedly his "all hope is lost" attitude didn't help matters...
I will not contribute to a lynch on Eternal today, and I would still very much like to see Whoopin hanged.

Bulle: What's with this?
Bulle said:
That's a bandwagon I can put my vote on!

vote: Eternal
You don't seem to have any reasons, please explain yourself.



Moss: Please don't take people's quotes out of context, it reflects very poorly on you.
Hojo said:
Apologies for my recent lull in activity, I was very busy over the weekend.

Firstly, what the **** is going on with Whoopin? He has done nothing but defend himself for most of the game, even after people accepted that he was probably just wrong, not evil. He has divided the village into "Anti-Whoopin" and "Pro-Whoopin" and has failed to explain himself with any modicum of logic or sense. His arguments are weak and he seems paranoid and jumpy. Is this how the great Whoopin plays, or is this how he deals with his new found villainy?
Lines like this:
Whoopin said:
Eternal - ever since his first nonjoke post that contained AntiWhoopin, he played very defensively and was noticeable when I mentioned the Unvote and clearly got aggravated playing werewolf debates with me. I dont agree with Greatsword, Estonian, and Calodine entries in his LoS.
Are complete nonsense. Eternal has been far less defensive than Whoopin, who offers no reasons at all for his disagreements, and has painted Eternal as a villain without any valid justification, as far as I can see.
His theory that Eternal's sarcasm was somehow a subtle name drop of the wolves seems to be the keystone of this argument, and is patently rubbish. No wolf would ever feel the need to point out the random happenstance of all their packmates names appearing together on the roster.
Whoopin appears to be floundering and I cannot see any reason for an innocent to be doing so just now. As such,
Vote: Whoopin.



Nice to see some of our replacements being active now, AWdeV seems to have a good grasp of events so far and I look forward to some good hunting from him.



Vieira still seems very suspect to me, especially given his complete dropping of the game. I would still have my vote on him, but Whoopin has sunk several levels in my eyes.



Face is interesting. As others have noted, he seems to be defending Whoopin an inordinate amount. It is almost as though he doesn't want his packmate to go down. Other than this, though, I don't have much on him. I'll keep him in mind and see what happens.



Damnit John... So many replacements.

Moss said:
One thing that I have noticed is that a lot of people seem to be basing their suspicion of Whoopin on how strange it is for a 'great' player to end up the target of a first day lynch.
Hojo said:
Is this how the great Whoopin plays, or is this how he deals with his new found villainy?
Here, you have taken a comment asking whether a player is behaving villainously (as I believe him to be) or in his usual style and warped it into me finding it suspicious that he has votes on him. Not so.
 
Magorian Aximand said:
Erm, that's not what he said.
Yes, it is. Observe, bolded for clarity:


Moss said:
One thing that I have noticed is that a lot of people seem to be basing their suspicion of Whoopin on how strange it is for a 'great' player to end up the target of a first day lynch.
FrisianDude said:
I'm going to have to ask how a good player can be made into an easy target?
Someone like John. was an easy target, but Whoopin? Big target, perhaps, but not an easy one.
Hojo said:
Is this how the great Whoopin plays, or is this how he deals with his new found villainy?
AWdeV said:
Although I do wonder how a super player can end up in that position. Oh, he wasn't being careful enough. He's just being whoopin.
Yeah, or he's being a villain for the very first time and tries to use his reputation from earlier games as a shield.
 
The rest of his post, and his other posts on the matter, might be of interest to you.

"As far as I can tell the case against Whoopin is entirely based in the perception that his constant baiting and aggressive behavior makes him a wolf, which is the exact same misconception that I fell for when I first started playing and aggressively attacked players like Adaham for doing the same thing. Villagers need to apply pressure and create controversy and fuel debate to find wolves. Good wolves don't need to do any of that, they just have to appear useful and limit the amount of attention they draw."

"The problem is that all of them are using Whoopin's reputation to jump to nonsensical conclusions."

"I'm not saying that Whoopin is innocent because he's an aggressive and antagonistic player, I'm simply stating that people seem to be falling into a logical fallacy that being one of the 'three best players' in the game means that he's the subject of suspicion for being... the subject of suspicion."

"Someone acting suspicious is enough to make me cautious of them, but for me to be convinced of someones guilt I don't need evidence that they're behaving against my expectations, I need evidence that they're behaving against my expectations in a way that would benefit a wolf player. And at this point I'm just not seeing it, Whoopin has nothing to gain and everything to lose behaving like he has as a wolf, and if this is a behavior bluff it seems like he wouldn't have taken it to the point where he's pushing for a lynch on himself."

"Stop basing things on the fact that you've heard Whoopin is a good player, it's not relevant to how he plays or what he's doing. Judging his behavior against what you expect of a good player doesn't make any sense, because there's no single way that good players behave."

"At this point Whoopin' being needlessly aggressive and antagonistic isn't really telling me he's a wolf, it's telling me that he's Whoopin. You might as well argue that Magorian is acting suspicious because he's gotten into a long winded theological or scientific debate."

It seems that you're the one misrepresenting a position by referencing only a piece of the argument.
 
My comment was not about his position, he has a lot of good points there, it was about his use of that particular quote. What he quoted was a question asking whether that was Whoopin's style or not. In that post he laid it down as an example of people assuming that if Whoopin is being voted for then he must be evil, something I do not believe. Though he has since added new points to the debate, his misuse of the quote remains the same. I was merely pointing out a gameplay issue, I do not believe Moss is wrong in his arguments, just that he has provided faulty evidence.
 
But his argument has never been that anyone assumed Whoopin was evil because he was being voted for. And every quote he provided was arguing something different. Their connection was their assumptions about Whoopin.
 
Well, Hojo, I am not for a no-lynch. I am not a no-lyncher. That's not my thang. As Eternal said, it's either him or Whoopin that has to go. I don't really see Whoopin as anything but Whoopin at this stage, so in my view, Eternal is more suspicious than Whoopin at this point.
 
Moss said:
AWdeV said:
Although I do wonder how a super player can end up in that position. Oh, he wasn't being careful enough. He's just being whoopin.
Yeah, or he's being a villain for the very first time and tries to use his reputation from earlier games as a shield.

Which seems like a pretty hollow fallacy to me. Ignoring the fact that much like Adaham he has a reputation as a skilled player not because of self-preservation or for playing well with others but because of his aggressiveness and antagonism in his hunting, insinuating that he's a villain because you think he's incompetently drawing massive amounts of attention to himself is... confusing to say the least.

Which is nothing like what I said or implied. The quote you brought up is fantastically irrelevant and so is what you ascribed to it.

What you have quoted here is not why I voted for Whoopin. It was a response to a claim that I shouldn't vote for Whoopin because he's such a good player. Which he may very well be but he doesn't look like it with his behaviour and him being a fantastic player doesn't mean he can't be a newbie villain at the same time.

I'm not insinuating that he's a villain because I think he's incompetently drawing amounts of attention to him and you claiming that I do is... misleading and dishonest. To say the least.
I believed he was a villain AND he was incompetently drawing attention to himself. The one did not relate to the other and I was not the one who brought up the argument.



Whatever. Eternal is going to die, apparently. Well, I'm curious what it's going to be, I doubt he's a villain though.
 
Moss said:
Wait, so you're saying that Whoopin is a villain, because he's too good a player to act in a way you find suspicious. Therefore because he's acting suspicious he must be a wolf.
No. Mag raised the point that I was 'sure' about Bgfan and I said that yes, but Bgfan was an exception for being an idiot. Being good does not make Whoopin evil-proof.

You are not losing much by killing me, I am a regular wolf, and my role is on the first page. I don't see much to reply to. If there's anything else you'd like to see me respond to, I'm more than willing. But over this day, I've been more than willing to clarify myself. I've been more than willing to explain my thought process entirely.  I did what was best for the village.

I realize there's a lot I could respond to Mag. But when I look at it, I draw blanks. I do apologize, though, for being nonresponsive and 'blegh' yesterday and Sunday. Life's been depressing and it's difficult to play this game.
 
Terribly sorry guys for not being on the last day or two. It was due to a mixture of not having internet, playing CK2 and completely forgetting about this due to the said lack of internet.

Just had a quick read through, and it seems Cathernal is odds on for the lynch at this point. I'm kinda conflicted with this. He has been rather narrow-sighted but he has been active and always contributes something to the cause (in the last two games at least). The last time I played with him and he was evil was in Orj's game, where I was evil myself. I can't really recall his play then, besides the fact he made a poor claim (if I remember correctly) and got munched for it. He is his own super emotianal (at least he appears to be emotional, though he denies this) self, so I'm not sure. I know we will have something to talk about (hopefully I don't have to rely on it to get myself fired up) tomorrow what ever side he turns out to be on. But I'm not sure if I really want to vote him. Then again, same could be said for everyone, imo.
 
Final Votecount:

1 - Eternal (7) - Magorian, Bulle, Calodine, Moss, QuailLover, Facemelter, Whoopin
2 - Vieira (0) -
3 - Facemelter (0) -
4 - Bgfan (0) -
5 - QuailLover (0) -
6 - Magorian (0) -
7 - AWdeV (0) -
8 - Whoopin (4) - Greatsword, Eternal, Hojo, AWdeV
9 - Adaham (0) -
10 - Frisian (0) -
11 - Moss (0) -
12 - Greatsword (0) -
13 - Calodine (1) - Vieira
14 - Bulle (1) - Adaham
15 - Hojo (0) -

Not Voting (2) - Bgfan, Frisian

As the discussion raged on, the village started to worry about who to kill. The many comings and goings had everyone confused, and some wished the earth would stop, so they could have more time to analyze things over. At dusk, Adaham and Bgfan couldn't be found, so it was decided that a decision would be made without them.

At the end, the argument between Eternal and Whoopin polarized the village. It became clear that one of them had to be killed. Throughout the day, it seemed that Eternal was at an advantage, and he gathered a small support. But as night approached, the last minute votes all came down to Whoopin's side, and a majority was reached.

The village dragged a resigned Eternal to the main square, where someone had assembled a place for the hangings. Not wishing to drag things further, Facemelter pushed Eternal to his death. As the body trashed, the transformation began, and death revealed Eternal's true form, a weak Werewolf, just like Rathyr.

Moss noticed something had fallen from the wolf's body. As everyone approached to investigate, they discovered a broken syringe on the floor. A light green liquid had spilled from it, emanating a faint bad smell, that everyone associated with wolves.


Eternal was an Innocent Wolf

Night Actions need to be in by Friday, May 4th, 23:00 GMT
 
The village gathered at the main square to see what damages the night had brought. It was clear that none of them had been able to sleep well, and some had no sleep at all. A quick head count revealed three of them were missing: Hojo, Whoopin and Frisian.

Whoopin was found just outside his house. He was trapped under a net with no way of getting out. His attempt to free himself had only made things worse, and the trap was a completely mess. Some villagers even managed a smile at the sight. "What are you ****ers smiling at? Someone help me out of here already."

Frisian's house was next. As someone opened the door, a strong smell of wolfsbane assaulted their noses. Frisian stumbled out of the bathroom, barely able to stand. "Sorry for not meeting everyone outside, I spent the entire night sick in there. Must be something I ate."

Everyone expected the worse, approaching Hojo's place. The door was smashed open and there were several broken glasses on the floor. Hojo's body was found near the backdoor, pierced by two crossbow bolts and a broken syringe on his hand. The rest of the house seemed to be a laboratory, which reminded everyone of Stalingrad. Facemelter voiced everyone's opinion "It's a pity we lost such a valuable ally, but I can't feel sad about his death. He was the responsible for this, after all."


Hojo was Ivan, the head scientist.
 
That's an interesting narration there. And Hojo, if there was anyone I expected to die, it wasn't him. Guess I'll have to reread through the thread to see if I can find some connections between players, since I can't think any up from the top of my head right now.
 
Very interesting narration.

Whoopin seems to have been the target of a role blocker. Unless we see a jump in attacks the next night, it would appear that he may be somewhat cleared by this event. However, the wolves could function in a manner that allows the diminished group to attack as normal without him. I'll be interested to see how things unfold tomorrow night.

Frisian seems somewhat more cleared than Whoopin, as he seems to be the target of a villainous attack, rather than a potentially innocent one like a role blocker. It looks like a failed poisoning. This would indicate either that the poison has a success/failure rate, or that Frisian is a normal human, and, with no indication of a third party present, an ally.

I'll take a look back through Hojo's posts, and see if I can dig up any clues about who might want him dead.
 
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