Were Trek: Q-re - Game over, INNOCENTS WIN :iamamoron:

Currently viewing this thread:

Jock

Count
M&BWBWF&SNW
SootShade said:
It's definitely a possibility that occurs to me, and the way that the both of you are acting isn't convincing me otherwise. It's pretty convenient how your heated discussion just didn't justify a vote either way, and the second that I stepped in to put some scrutiny on it - and you again acknowledge the validity of my argument that it was a whole lot of hot air in the first place - you've both very quickly become convinced that I'm scum instead.
I've not 'very quickly' become convinced that you're scum. I think your assessment of me and Curio is quite correct, but that is the problem with good players – they can sound very reasonable even as wolves. The issue is that you're pressing a lynch on me based on a flimsy, far-fetched reason while constantly dismissing my counter-arguments for it. So the main issue with me, in your opinion, lies in this:

Soot's post where he  voted me said:
But more importantly, your stance on Xardob is only getting weirder. I was initially just confused by the attention that Xardob was getting. It seemed to me that over any other lurker he was the focus of several player's early suspicions, even though none of them substantiated those suspicions to any real degree. It appeared like an easy suspicion for a lazy wolf, which I called out.
I was initially wary of the Xardob bandwagon for reasons I've repeatedly explained. I remained wary of him because of his silence as a veteran player. Similar to how I was very suspicious of Marowit and was willing to lynch both of them at one point on day one. You can keep repeating how suspicious my suspicion of Xardob was, but that doesn't make it true.

Soot said:
I'm not going to keep waffling on about the least of the four arguments in my case against you, Jock. The fact is that you've already completely acknowledged the validity of another two of them, so it really doesn't matter how many times you repeat how supposedly weak my case is, or get hung up on particular distinctions that I brought up specifically to differentiate you from Crassius. Everything about the way you are responding here stinks of scum.
I'm more than happy to respond to any of the arguments you have against me. Saying everything I do reeks of scum isn't going to change the fact that your case is weak and relyies on people to trust your judgment rather than making their own conclusions, which is actually understandable as I was the one relying on your and Eternal's judgment of Curio. I believe I've responded to all four of your main arguments for voting for me, you've simply chose to ignore my explanation for voting Curio, but I'll do it again just for your own sake.
Soot's arguments said:
I've got a few notable issues with Jock. I'm still uneasy about his suspicion on Xardob, and though the turn on Arch3r seems better than Crassius it's still not a great look in my book. - I was suspicious of Xardob because of his apparent unwillingness to contribute to the game early on. I voted Arch3r because I didn't have faith in getting any of my other two suspects – Dago and Eternal – lynched at that point. What is your stance on Brutus, by the way?
I'm not a fan of how widely he's theorizing, apparently refusing to use the information we have right now, as that would be in a villain's interest, but at the same time I'm still quite torn on Moose and Rocco myself. – This is how I have always played the game and I'd say this is by far the most difficulties I've had with making sense of what's going on, mostly because of the abilities and Moose-Rocco claiming to be lovers/innocents. It doesn't help that I've got three votes on me which I need to respond to.
Most notably the way Jock turned on Crassius on day 2 stinks of him trying to save his own hide, even though it was done rather smoothly. – ??? When I was ever in danger at the start of day two? Please re-read the second day. I was only mentioned as possible suspects by Xardob and Moose, there wasn't any real pressure nor the need to save my own hide at that point. After that Moose apparently considered me very scummy, to which I responded – mostly with confusion about whether he actually has any real arguments. That said I did let myself be misguided by Eternal's case for Curio and Soot backing him up seemed to make it even more possible. If you actually take notice and read the posts I've responded to Moose about his vote on me exactly once, instead focusing on Dago, Curio and you, who I considered more important than one misguided innocent and a possible scum voting me.

You did post early day 2 how my vote on Arch3r seemed less suspicious than anyone else's. In fact you've been very adamant about making it clear how much more suspicious Curio seemed until the big analysis to which I responded to quite aggressively, which you might not have expected. Your early analysis' of both of us ended quite conveniently, leaving you with the option to base your actual vote on our responses to you.
I mean, come on, you've been setting us (me) up for this attack since day one after you hammered an innocent:
SootShade said:
That said, if Arch3r flips blue then this wagon, and possibly it's overlap with the Xardob wagon, are the first things to look at. I'm not a fan of Crassius and Jock (didn't get on the Xardob wagon, but was positioning himself for it) later in the day. And Rocco, whilst I'll feel a lot better about him if Arch3r's scum, is still near the top of my list.


SootShade said:
Also, if your scum read on me is solely based on a pack theory connecting me and Jock, and specifically the behaviour on his side, you can feel free to vote Jock whenever. We can start seriously discussing which on of us is a packmate after we are both satisfied with the obvious scum being dead.
Funny. This is exactly what I say about you.

Xardob said:
I'm not that certain on Curio, but I'd be happy to lynch Dago, Eternal or Jock, so I guess we agree for today.
At least if you don't vote Soot he's definitely going to hang tomorrow. If you look at his play so far knowing that I'm innocent, it's pure scum.

Still, I believe the village is much better off hanging him first. :wink:

Roccoflipside said:
It is quite interesting that, with only two votes to lynch, no one else has joined the train. I know it's still a little early, but both previous day two Jock lynchings happened quite quickly, so there is some food for thought.  I do understand the innocents being cautious as well, as we are starting to run out of innocents. If we lynch a blue today, and the wolves get a night kill, well only be one innocent kill away from losing. Just some more food for thought.
How and why is this interesting? In previous days I was lynched quickly because I didn't even have time to defend myself properly. The last part of your post is suddenly cautious. It didn't seem an issue when you and Moose laid votes on me earlier based on simple gut reads.

Dago, at some point you asked something about Soot voting Xardob. Yes, his first vote was Xardob instead. He made it very clear how he didn't actually suspect him though.
SootShade said:
Jock said:
That's a ****ty reason, Soot. I was against lynching a guy straight off the bat day one and I dislike early bandwagons because of how easy it is for people to 'merge' into the game like that. I was never NOT suspicious of Xardob until he pulled off his blank shot, which somewhat calmed me.
I found your, and pretty much everyone else's, suspicion on Xardob strange from the start, as I pointed out earlier.
I've used the same tactic as a wolf, trying to gain the trust of veteran players by implying I'm convinced of their innocence from the start. Now that's food for thought, Rocco.

Anyway, here's the alignment chart so far. I haven't come up with a convincing pack-theory yet.


Councilor Crassius Curio – Despite our early clashes and me following Eternal's vote on him, I have found Curio's defence and his discussion thereafter to be more of that of an innocent than a pressured wolf. I find our positions in the game somewhat similar even, with Soot actually focusing on me. We've both been quite defensive and perhaps theorised more than actually pressured people, but at least on day two we've had good reasons to do so with both of us being the focus of suspicions.
Jock – I'm Spock for crying out loud.  :iamamoron:
Dago Wolfrider – Dago is a tough one. By far the loudest advocate for proper hunting and pressuring, with our discussion on the topic creating several quotewars and ending in even more confusion it would seem. Despite critizing others for waiting for others to post and lead the hunt, it is my impression that this is exactly what Dago is doing himself, although he does claim to have distinct goals in mind when constantly asking for clarifications and repeating questions. As I've already said, if this was anyone else I would probably feel much, much more suspicious of Dago. Right now I'm more towards leaning innocent though, since his vocal points have still been about hunting and catching wolves.
SootShade – Scum or the most misled villager I've ever seen. Read my post and our discussion with him for a more thorough analysis.
Lord Brutus – Was very adamant about Xardob and Marowit being guilty, seems to have withdrawn his suspicion of Xardob now. Did suspect Curio and is very adamant about Moose. I guess the issue with my theory right now is fitting an innocent Brutus and innocent Moose in there, which is why I've left both of them as purple.
Xardob – What little Xardob has posted screams innocent to me. He seems to have taken the role of an experienced hunter, occasionally coming out of his corner to shed some light and guide the villagers toward making the right decisions. I just hope he is going to make the right decision himself today.
Roccoflipside – Despite Moose vouching for him, I can't shake the feeling that Rocco is the scum of their pair (if Moose is innocent himself). His main suspects have been Xardob and Marowit, both lurkers at the time, although he did follow his partner's lead in voting for Arch3r.
Moose! – Feels like Moose on steroids. Even more suspicions thrown around. I guess what's most scummy about Moose is his partner, of whose innocence he is completely convinced. I can still see Moose as misled innocent who is doing his best to get his win condition fulfilled.
Marowit – Since I've already pretty much gone all-in with my theory now. I'll just use Curio's explanation for suspecting Eternal.
Eternal - Do not like. Misinterpreted several posts, speaks with absolute certainty although he cannot be sure about anything he said so far, unless he's a wolf, and changed his mind after previously saying Moose! was "obviously" a wolf.

Man, this was difficult. I think I've repeated 'i don't like alignment charts' three times while making this already. :razz:
 

Troll

Duke
M&BWB
Jock, I still have no interest in getting stuck in a quote war regarding this, but I'll explain my thoughts regarding Xardob, and how that developed into my case on you, in as simple and complete a manner as I can:

1. There was nothing about Xardob's lurking that stuck out to me, either in a good or a bad way, compared to any of the other lurkers early on. This didn't really change until he used his ability.
2. Finding him lurking to be suspicious based on meta is plausible, but it seemed to be in line with his activity last game, so I did not find that particularly convincing.
3. Nonetheless, I did not consider your suspicion on him to stand out from the rest of the pack. All of the reasons that were presented were quite simple and minimal.
4. What stood out was specifically the number of people that were honing on him, whilst other lurkers received relatively less attention. This trend in general merited examination of the people going after him, but at the time I did not have anything more to go with to make distinctions.
5. Xardob's use of his ability changed the situation drastically, as it near enough confirmed his innocence - thus making it more likely that there would be wolves eyeing the lurker lynch here.
6. The sudden wagon on Arch3r was in itself scummy - I'm not going to apologize for having the eyes to see that as early as yesterday. I hammered it specifically because I thought it would be informative, even if it was a miss.
7. Both wagons were very simple, occurring with very little argumentation, though the Arch3r one was notably faster. They were both suitable for wolves looking for an easy lynch.
8. I saw a reasonable amount of overlap between them, with two players voting on both of the wagons; you were something of an afterthought, since you had not actually voted for Xardob, and had had your suspicion on him from early on. I thought it would be worthwhile to examine you as well, but I thought that circumstance pointed more towards Rocco and Crassius being scum.
9. You immediately responded to assert that you were suspicious of Xardob all along, something which didn't really refute any of the above reasoning, thus why I tried to clarify that reasoning afterwards.
10. Going into day  we were left with four people that I deduced were either very likely to be innocents (Xardob/Brutus), or at the very least would probably be a bad lynch for the day regardless (Moose/Rocco). There was also an individual innocent read I had on Dago. This reasoning I presented very clearly early on in the day, as well how it led me to the following:
11. I was still left with two suspects based on my previous reasoning, you and Crassius, after removing Rocco. Also Eternal, but he was suspect as an individual and a very simple case, and later I was quite satisfied with his contribution when he finally posted.
12. Thus only you and Crassius remained, making it very obvious that I would focus on you two. Crassius was initially the more suspect, reflected by how I voted him even before a full examination, but as you know he came out looking somewhat better from the reread, compared to you.
13. I did go into it with the expectation to lay down a decisive vote afterwards, because of how much I'd already narrowed down my suspects for the day, but the reread lead me to a different direction. You and Crassius came off looking better than I thought, though still reasonable targets, and I figured to inspect Dago and Eternal again as well first, due to how the rereads showed them in a somewhat worse light. I was hoping that would end up giving me a clear front runner for a suspect, or at least again remove Dago from the running.
14. I wasn't waiting for you to respond before laying down my vote. Heck, I wasn't necessarily even expecting much of a response, due to how I could not come to a particularly decisive conclusion with either of the reread. You are imagining by plans as a lot more nefarious and long term than they were. It was entirely the fact that you chose to respond, and did so in an extremely scummy manner, that I even came back to you so quickly instead of continuing to deliberate the game.
 

Roccoflipside

Master Knight
Haven't read Soot's wot yet, but Jock's alignment chart has three suspects, all of whom have been each other's top suspects at one point. I've been trying to have Marowit lunches from the beginning (as Jock himself pointed out), Soot voted me on day one (and is still suspicious of me), and Eternal has been suspicious of me (mostly because of my wanting to kill him probably). All I'm saying is that makes no sense. Maybe one of us is a wolf, but I know for a fact it's not me and/or Moose!.

Also, his response to my post was verrrry thin.
 

Roccoflipside

Master Knight
Also, his entire theory rests on the idea that one of Moose! or I is scum (he literally words it this way in his accusation of me). I'm thinking Jock-Eternal-Dago pack here, but it's definitely Jock here. Or that's the way he's making it feel.
 

Jock

Count
M&BWBWF&SNW
This is a much more calm and collected answer than I expected.

1. 2. 3. As I said, I was suspicious of all the lurkers: I said I was willing to lynch Eternal as well. Early on. My suspicion of Xardob had nothing to do with the bandwagon, obviously. It was in fact one the reasons why I was hesitant to pursue him further before he used his ability.
4.  I said as much myself early on.
5.  Again, this is how felt too, with the exception of thinking too much about the early bandwagon. But then again I had already discussed the bandwagoning with Curio, whose defence, or rather, suspicion of me based on my defence of Xardob, seemed strange to me. Hope it makes sense.
6. Looking back it was a horrible wagon, but I had gotten lynched before for backing out of the MaHuD wagon and I did have my concerns for Arch3r switching his votes in the span of a few posts. Especially since he mistakenly went for another innocent.
7. 8.  You said it yourself: I wasn't voting for Xardob. I've been called out for being too cautious but it is how I play: I can suspect someone and still be suspicious of people voting him, if our reasons for the suspicion differ. This was the case with Xardob as people voting him had zero actual reason for doing so.
9. I explained how I misunderstood your post earlier. I thought you were speaking of my defence of Xardob's bandwagon, not about my suspicion of him. E.g I thought you were talking about the same thing Curio was.
10. So you essentially agree that this is a difficult situation, where suspecting one person pretty much means you need to think a couple of steps ahead because of the Moose/Rocco connection.
11. How satisfied are you with Eternal now?
12. Can you see a theory where both Curio and I are innocent? This would of course mean swapping out you for either Dago or Brutus in my theory.  :iamamoron:
13. 14. You can say I'm imagining your plans as much more nefarious but you can't refute that you already created a safety net for yourself before Arch3r was even strung up. I also found it strange for you to think me suspecting Xardob was scummy while your confirmed innocent Brutus went for him for the majority of the early game.

In short, I understand where you're coming from but I don't find this case to be too convincing. I mean, this sounds dumb as hell coming from me, but it had literally never occurred to me that suspecting Xardob could in any way be an indication of wolfishness. The most questionable things I've done (imo) have to do with going for Curio after Eternal's post.

So... we're suspecting each other because we're suspecting each other? :iamamoron:

Roccoflipside said:
Haven't read Soot's wot yet, but Jock's alignment chart has three suspects, all of whom have been each other's top suspects at one point. I've been trying to have Marowit lunches from the beginning (as Jock himself pointed out), Soot voted me on day one (and is still suspicious of me), and Eternal has been suspicious of me (mostly because of my wanting to kill him probably). All I'm saying is that makes no sense. Maybe one of us is a wolf, but I know for a fact it's not me and/or Moose!.

Also, his response to my post was verrrry thin.
Roccoflipside said:
Also, his entire theory rests on the idea that one of Moose! or I is scum (he literally words it this way in his accusation of me). I'm thinking Jock-Eternal-Dago pack here, but it's definitely Jock here. Or that's the way he's making it feel.
What's wrong with thinking either you or Moose is scum? If you want to test your theory I'm good to go for Eternal as well, as that's one of our matching suspicions. What with all the abilities, perhaps either of you can shed some proof about your relationship with Moose?
 

Roccoflipside

Master Knight
Just about the only other person I'm willing to vote rn would be Etarnal, mostly because his play is remarkably similar to when I came in on day two last game, but I don't think there's enough traction to lynch him and you (Jock) feel much more scummy right now.

Also I'd be willing to shed some light on our relationship... When it's necessary. Otherwise I'm not quite ready to reveal all my info, seeing as we (innocents) need to get a good kill here soon. Without a more clear field of play, it could just set Moose! and I (as well as the rest of the village) for a loss.
 

Troll

Duke
M&BWB
Jock said:
This is a much more calm and collected answer than I expected.
I was admittedly feeling rather cranky yesterday.

I'll check back on your actual answer a bit later, got dragged to play games.
 

Troll

Duke
M&BWB
Suspecting Xardob in itself is not scummy, but the number of people suspecting him lead me to believe there to be scum among them. That is what I'm trying to get across.

The scenario in which you and Crassius are both innocent... In that case it would almost certainly be Eternal and Rocco/Moose, and it would still require expanding my suspects to Dago (which, I'll grant, could happen anyway when I get around to rereading him), or maybe even to Brutus. Honestly, I may be more willing to bet on both of you being wolves than neither, unless I try completely overhaul the way I've been viewing this game all along, because the two of you simply fit into that most neatly.

I'm uncertain about Eternal. His posts today felt really good to me, but I honestly haven't reviewed them point by point yet, because of how much work that is when he's commenting on the entirety of day 1. Now that I've changed my view of Crassius (and even Dago a little bit), I think if I take a closer look at Eternal's first post today, it might not look nearly as good, because his reads don't match mine as neatly anymore.
 

Moose!

poorly-drawn
Duke
Eternal is just gonna lurk. I think either he is a wolf or you are.

Keep your eyes and your votes on Jock.
 

Jock

Count
M&BWBWF&SNW
Moose! said:
Eternal is just gonna lurk. I think either he is a wolf or you are.

Keep your eyes and your votes on Jock.
What is it with you and these 'either one of them is a wolf or the other one' ideas?

You are wrong about me too. Could you maybe care to explain your suspicion of me beyond gut reads or are you now conveniently relying on Soot to make the case for you?
 

Catholic

Duke
WBWF&SNW
I think we have a case of Day 1 repeating itself all over again. Moose! puts down his vote on the most suspicious innocent, then the wolves jump on his wagon. I'm not convinced by the case on Jock.
 

Dago Wolfrider

Sergeant Knight
This would of course mean swapping out you for either Dago or Brutus in my theory.

Brutus, my man. What is your take on all of this? I've left you out of pretty much all of my posts because I still have no clue about you, mate.

If it's not betraying people, how do you call it? Flip flopping.

Vote Jock

Dago Wolfrider said:
Dago Wolfrider said:
Xardob said:
Set phasers to kill

Guess I am enough sure now, SootShade or Brutus?

Damn huge thumb and small mobile phone screen.  :lol:

Nah, you misinterpreted my post. Just ignore it.

 

Jock

Count
M&BWBWF&SNW
Dago Wolfrider said:
This would of course mean swapping out you for either Dago or Brutus in my theory.

Brutus, my man. What is your take on all of this? I've left you out of pretty much all of my posts because I still have no clue about you, mate.

If it's not betraying people, how do you call it? Flip flopping.
All I can respond right now with is  :lol:

On phone atm, will respond more thoroughly soonTM. Hope y'all don't **** up and lynch me before that.
 

Troll

Duke
M&BWB
Well, I'll grant that Dago probably would not place a vote on Jock right now, if they were packies. This vote could be decisive, and I don't think there's enough pressure on either of them to force him to bus his packie right now.
 

Moose!

poorly-drawn
Duke
Marowit said:
I think we have a case of Day 1 repeating itself all over again. Moose! puts down his vote on the most suspicious innocent, then the wolves jump on his wagon. I'm not convinced by the case on Jock.

Who should I vote for then?
 

Dago Wolfrider

Sergeant Knight
Jock said:
Dago Wolfrider said:
This would of course mean swapping out you for either Dago or Brutus in my theory.

Brutus, my man. What is your take on all of this? I've left you out of pretty much all of my posts because I still have no clue about you, mate.

If it's not betraying people, how do you call it? Flip flopping.
All I can respond right now with is  :lol:

On phone atm, will respond more thoroughly soonTM. Hope y'all don't **** up and lynch me before that.

I unfortunately can't grant you that. Xardob or whoever wants to join, well, wait.
 

Moose!

poorly-drawn
Duke
Jock said:
Moose! said:
Eternal is just gonna lurk. I think either he is a wolf or you are.

Keep your eyes and your votes on Jock.
What is it with you and these 'either one of them is a wolf or the other one' ideas?

You are wrong about me too. Could you maybe care to explain your suspicion of me beyond gut reads or are you now conveniently relying on Soot to make the case for you?

I’d switch to Soot if you prefer.
 

Moose!

poorly-drawn
Duke
Marowit said:
I think we have a case of Day 1 repeating itself all over again. Moose! puts down his vote on the most suspicious innocent, then the wolves jump on his wagon. I'm not convinced by the case on Jock.

The wolves are either you and Soot, Dago and Curio. So do you want to join my lynching of an innocent for a second time?
 
Top Bottom