Well, these backgrounds are all wrong.

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Nosotros

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I was about to create a new character and looking through the backgrounds. I saw a bunch of completely ahistorical post-hoc feudal land tenures. This mod is supposed to be set in 8th century Britain?

"Your father was a free man who was paying rent to his overlord and owed him labour services in exchange for the given land." - NOPE, never happened in pre-Norman Britain.

"Your father was an unfree peasant who was tied to his lord's estate for all his life." - NOPE, never happened in pre-Norman Britain.

"Your father was of lower noble class and possessed five hands of land. He owed military service to the king..." - NOPE, never happened in pre-Norman Britain.

You guys have apparently confused late medieval (~15th century) interpretations of 10th century legal documents of continental Europe and weirdly decided to impose those on to 8th century Britain. It's completely ludicrous and ahistorical. We might as well be fighting with muskets. This makes no goddamn sense at all.
 
What specifically is wrong?
It's true we don't have many exact resources on the social stratification at this time, so there's a bit of guessing.
But why shouldn't there be lords who own land and people who pay 'taxes'/rent?
Or unfree pesants tied to estates, essentially as slaves...
 
Adorno said:
What specifically is wrong?
It's true we don't have many exact resources on the social stratification at this time, so there's a bit of guessing.
But why shouldn't there be lords who own land and people who pay 'taxes'/rent?
Or unfree pesants tied to estates, essentially as slaves...

Because those are all post-Carolingian continental legal inventions. And what do you mean, 'taxes'/rent? Those are two completely different things. They have nothing to do with each other.

Feudal tenures, in which peasants or barons or lords were sword to greater freeman/baron/lords, who were in turn sworn up to kings, is a post-medieval invention. They barely existed in 10th century continental Europe, let alone pre-Norman Britain.

"What specifically is wrong" is that 8th century Britain was simply not organized along feudal legal lines. There was no such thing as owing labor to a higher lord. There was no hierarchy of lords. This game isn't "guessing," it's simply applying a mythology from hundreds of years later that did not exist at the time in question.
 
"Next were the Thanes, the professional military in service to either the King or one of his Ealdormen. Those who served the King were accorded a higher status but any Thane could earn a place in the King’s household by virtue of his military service. The duties of the Thane were primarily to provide the kingdom with a solid foundation for the army. When not actively engaged in fighting it was the responsibility of the Thane to oversee the local infrastructure, military and civil. Thanes also held lands in their own right....It was possible for a Ceorl to attain the rank of Thane by acquiring 5 hides of lands. A hide was an area of land sufficient to feed an average family, roughly 120 acres depending on local conditions. If the rank of Thane could be sustained for three generations it became hereditary."

"On the other hand, Wormald (1978, 35, 91-92) haspointed out that the terms
gesithcund
and
earlcund
demonstrate the existence of nobility by birth as early the seventh century. Also from the seventh century onwards, the status of freemen changed as a consequence of the introduction of land charters, shifting the meaning of 'freedom' from the right to be granted the protection of the law to the power toleave an estate (Pelteret 1995, 251)."

(Just some quick material found after a 10 second Google search)


Nosotros, I know the point you are trying to make.  It is wrong to assume that feudal social/land obligations existed throughout the entire Dark/Middle Ages.  However, it is equally wrong to buy into the premise the pre-Norman English society was  freer and more mobile.  There is conflicting evidence offered up by well-regarded scholars to support both sides.  Close examination of source material yields a confusing picture of post-Migration/pre-Norman social structure and obligations.  However there is ample material to support the existence the three background scenarios you so adamantly and quite rudely object to in your first post.

"Your father was a free man who was paying rent to his overlord and owed him labour services in exchange for the given land." - NOPE, never happened in pre-Norman Britain.
 
* while this scenario more appropriately belongs in feudal society it is not unheard of in Anglo-Saxon England by any means.  There is good evidence that the category of 'Freeman" was subdivided into many subsets based on economic and class rank.  Some freemen owned their land.  Some freemen were subject to debts and could not hold onto their own land.  Some freemen were broke (manumitted slaves come to mind) and worked for other landowners.  It was common for Ceorls to rent land from thanes etc. in exchange for goods/services. NOPE this never happened in pre-Norman Britain is not correct.

"Your father was an unfree peasant who was tied to his lord's estate for all his life." - NOPE, never happened in pre-Norman Britain.

* This scenario is not only 100% plausible but was extremely common.  I assume that the Brytenwalda team means slave when they say "unfree peasant".  Slavery was a big deal and estates (such as a thane's hide land) were often farmed by such slaves.  Unfree peasant could also refer to a freeman who went into debt and sold himself into slavery.  This also happened and would result in attachment to a particular estate.  I really don't see anything wrong with this scenario.

"Your father was of lower noble class and possessed five hands of land. He owed military service to the king..." - NOPE, never happened in pre-Norman Britain.

* This is also clearly a correct scenario.  A very general hierarchy would go from King ---> Ealdorman ---> Thane ---> Ceorl ---> Slave.  The hierarchy is more detailed than that but this will do for now.  A lower noble in possession of 5 hides could very well be a thane.  Most thanes owed military service to their Ealdormen rather than to the king directly however.  But the Ealdorman owes his service to the king so the thane also owes service to the king by proxy.  Again, your statement that this never happened is clearly wrong.

I just took a quick scan of my bookshelf to offer some good reading material for this period

The Anglo-Saxon World (Oxford U. press)
The Ecclesiastical History of the English People by Bede (Oxford U. press)
The Anglo-Saxons (edited by James Campell)
Anglo-Saxon England by Stenton
The Dark Ages by Michael Wood
Anglo-Saxon Thane AD 449-1066 (Osprey publishing)
Saxon, Viking and Norman (Osprey publishing)
Arthur and the Anglo-Saxon Wars (Osprey publishing)
 
Then how was the hierarchy/social stratification at this time? You make it sound completely flat.
We agree there we kings with 'lords'/eorldormen or whatever their title, and there were slaves;
and that people owned land...
Terms like rent and taxes didn't exist or what?
 
well those terms did exist, seeing as they were used in Roman times, but there was a difference between the two, the tax system of rome was replaced by a rent system more based on a Germanic tribal model. But then the Roman tax model disappeared from most of western europe during this time, only hanging around in italy and parts of spain.
Also, there was a difference between "unfree peasant" and slave, again coming down from Rome, though enforced by the Germanic successor kingdoms as well, the "servus" or slave and the "mancipia" being the unfree peasant. unfree peasants were like serfs, that is had their own house, provided their own food, worked the lord's land, whereas slaves were slaves, mostly didnt work the land, more body servants and household retainer types.
 
This is some nice thread for history enthusiasts like myself.
I wish it had continued with counter arguments on both sides. It was fun to read and learn. :smile:

@DerHerbst: I should definitely check the books you mentioned..

DerHerbst said:
I just took a quick scan of my bookshelf to offer some good reading material for this period

The Anglo-Saxon World (Oxford U. press)
The Ecclesiastical History of the English People by Bede (Oxford U. press)
The Anglo-Saxons (edited by James Campell)
Anglo-Saxon England by Stenton
The Dark Ages by Michael Wood
Anglo-Saxon Thane AD 449-1066 (Osprey publishing)
Saxon, Viking and Norman (Osprey publishing)
Arthur and the Anglo-Saxon Wars (Osprey publishing)
 
So, the OP got his arse kicked?

Didn't slavery exist throughout ancient Britain? Even in Roman times? So what's the big deal. Couldn't you become a slave by being captured in battle?
 
I do not look from an ass-kicking perspective. It is just educative and fun to learn some stuff.
Imagine it as two warriors are dueling. This time with words and knowledge. Somebody will definitely be beaten, but you do not care to see the sword piercing to the heart, instead you care for the fight itself.

By the way, what does OP stand for? I know this is a beginner question but... :smile:
 
If you want to learn about this time period you can listen to this podcast: http://thebritishhistorypodcast.com/

It's immaculately researched and well presented.  The subjects are not only extremely interesting but also unique.  They cover the early Anglo-Saxon period in extreme detail.

This is by far a faster way to learn than reading all those books I mentioned ha ha ha.
 
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