Weapons, Armor and the Hit to Kill Ratio

[five bucks]

You have no idea how much it will effect performance as operations like that don’t stop once they implement the feature - thats the beginning, then the optimization begins. How well and efficient is it coded , is the engine running efficiently on multiple threads or land locked on one processor like Arma - these are all the types of questions I’ve relayed to you that you’ve ignored. Do you realize how new models get added to existing game, optimization to prevent FPS is always kept forefront.

So how is it you know in your seemingly limited programming experience how drastically this upgrade would degrade performance post optimization? Are you Melvin the mind reader?

The performance isn't the only reason adding armpit, eyeball, lower left leg and testicle hitboxes is a bad idea, but also the enormous amount of work it would take. But if you want to just talk about performance, sure. Let me ask you some simple yes/no questions it doesn't take a genius programmer to answer.

1: Has Bannerlord already taken two years of optimization to reach half-decent performance? Yes or no.

2: Will doubling or tripling the amount of existing hitboxes have a significant performance impact? Yes or no.

3: If yes, do you agree with the basic mathematical fact that adding more difficult calculations will put Bannerlord's performance backwards? Yes or no.

 

[JunKeteer]

I'm no programmer. All experience I have with programming comes from modding warband (superficially) and programming a game in c# in unity (and failing).

Though if there is one thing I learned from that is that it is more than usefull to keep things as simple as possible. Both because the more complicated you make your systems the more difficult they are to implement and also the more prone they are to have bugs. A simple system is also extremely more easy to find bugs and locate them. In some cases the complexity of a system prevents one to even comprehend whats wrong with it when a problem arises.

For these reasons you want to ask yourself the following question: Is the amount of work and risk I have to put into a complex system worth it in terms of gameplay?

Now before you answer that question keep these things in mind:
-It took TW the better part of two years to fix siege ladders and towers
-TW's standard answer to every system proposed no matter how important to gameplay and how easy to implement it is is: "tOo cOmPLicAtED"
-If anybody is willing to implement your system it will be a modder not TW
-M&B is not Chivalry or Mordhau it isn't only about fighting but also about roleplaying and sandbox strategy. Fighting is just one (be it important) aspect of the game
-resources put into overcomplicating combat could be spent better in other aspects of the game to much greater effect
-complicating a system such as yours has knock on effects on the rest of the game. You want a bazillion hitboxes with different armor values? Well somebody has to go through all armors and set these. Then somebody has to playtest wether these values are allright and good luck with that since there is a multitude of different situations in which the armor would need to be tested in.

Don't get me wrong. I like your idea and you are certainly not the first one to have it. It really isn't rocket since. Anybody who is interested in realism has thought about increasing the amount of hitboxes (me included). But it just isn't practical. And the fact that the majority of people on your poll disagree with you shows that most people understand this. It is not like people here see a complex system that makes the game more realistic and think to themselves: "man I sure don't want my game to be more detailed and realistic, where is the fun in that?" No. They think to themselves: "this would be a nightmare to implement and devour resources like a black hole devours entire stars"

This is the main point I think most of us here are trying to get through to DSS. The concept and idea is fine to have (though better explanation would be nice) but there is next to 0% TW adds something like this in game; maybe if they are doing a new engine and/or at the pre-alpha of development stages of a game.
They are struggling with some of the more 'basic' elements as is; highly doubt they have any appetite (or capability) to do something like this as any other 'complicated'/ambitious thing we've asked from them is met with silence or abandoned.

My only issue with DSS is he is essentially saying 'my way or the highway' and that because the forum didn't accept his proposal, it means we are completely satisfied with the current system which is false.

Hell, would love if the game had what he proposed for combat, would also love better diplomacy like CK3, impactful economy like EVE, battle strategy more akin to Total War series, no loading screens like Star Citizen, and a **** ton of cool things from other games; but I know that's not feasible at all.

 

[froggyluv]

The performance isn't the only reason adding armpit, eyeball, lower left leg and testicle hitboxes is a bad idea, but also the enormous amount of work it would take. But if you want to just talk about performance, sure. Let me ask you some simple yes/no questions it doesn't take a genius programmer to answer.

1: Has Bannerlord already taken two years of optimization to reach half-decent performance? Yes or no.

2: Will doubling or tripling the amount of existing hitboxes have a significant performance impact? Yes or no.

3: If yes, do you agree with the basic mathematical fact that adding more difficult calculations will put Bannerlord's performance backwards? Yes or no.

1. Yes. Some games take especially multi faceted, largely moddable and employing many units take years and years to completely optimize. Some never do.

2. Didnt realize he wanted to Triple the total amount of hitbox -yeah that some work. Take a look at TLD mods that have creatures with modified hitboxes- i still run 700+ army sizes. Matter of fact theres a hitbox editor built into the tools from Warband if IIRC -BRF editor. I think your imagining its harder than it actually is.

3. The mathematical fact that any thing new added will YES -slow down production schedule in some aspect, including your own wishlist.

And a Good Day Sir !!

 

[Kut]

Apologies in advance.. Didn't read the "whole" topic, there may be some unaligment problem on the matter.

------------------------------

Why there is a need of tripling the hitboxes?

You only have four directional attack, you can't target somebody's testicle hitbox easily and consistently.

Also, if i destroy my enemy's nail hitbox, does s/he will die ? I mean, in current system, if i chop somebody's leg, it will die afaik. But in more hitbox thing, if i chop somebody's lower leg, it still needs to be die.

So then, why we increased the hitboxes ? If we gonna achieve same thing ?

Therefore i couldn't get the promised efficiency. To me, it's not appealing..


-Drastic battle solution was more appealing to me actually...

 

[JunKeteer]

That's the gist of it with one of the proposed replies. Breakdown the hitboxes even further to represent the actual armor models (ie hit at an exposed joint in armor deals more, face vs helmet, etc..) vs what we have with the Head/Arm/Body/Legs split only. Plus all the restructuring required for something like this: the animation reworks, new values, remodelling hitboxes, AI targeting to implement, etc...and the implications to the performance of battles.
All for more realistic representation of armor/medieval combat but we really only need to stretch the scale of the armor value vs damage. Difference between a fully plated knight and and a Tier-1 soldier currently is maybe +2 hits only? And rocks are still feared (thought a bit better vs earlier patches).

 

[black_bulldog]

I always blame their scuffed MP design. Like I think they somehow have the idea that everything dying in 2-3 hits is exciting and E-sports and... I don't know, but I don't think they look at like a long, grindy, protracted RPG with management and strategy elements where the player puts time and effort into turning resources into power. I know that game testers usually test things in a acute way where they're only looking at a certain part of the game at once, so they may have no idea what it's like to start a campaign and build it up and spending 500 hours actually taking the map. Or how it feels to fight the same army every other day forever.

While I'm not calling you a liar that makes zero sense. Taleworlds sure has a strange way of showing they want mp to be a thing because they've done about everything they could to sabotage it since the beta.

 

[Ananda_The_Destroyer]

While I'm not calling you a liar that makes zero sense. Taleworlds sure has a strange way of showing they want mp to be a thing because they've done about everything they could to sabotage it since the beta.

Oh no that's true too, but I don't care about MP( I tested your beta now show me your single player!). It's this weird occurrence where at one point they cared about MP and in fact it was the first things they let the public play or demo IIRC. I think there was even 2 shows where that was all they had was captain mode. But then they are very resistant to the feedback, even early on that this class system is not really what the M & B players want. I don't know if it was gaslighting or just stubbornness but they've seemed to think it's something and not want to re-vamp it. I think they just gave up when it didn't get popular but it seemed early on they thought it would be something.

But here's an example of what I mean. Captain mode, you have classes to choose from, you can have more lower powered troops or few higher powered one. Now, in a game like Warband with good armor and damage calc, A few high tier units can wipe out 10-20 low tier ones no problem... I mean that's kinda the point of high tier units. SO for this class system to work the units have to be much closer in power, meaning heavy armor units can't actually have high protection, all units needs around the same HP, all unit need to be able to damage other and so on and on. This way a mob of underpants pitchfork guys is plausibly competitive against 6 armored sergeant units, other wise there no point in having ranks of classes, you would just use the best of whatever type your team needed (I mean people still do....) . Now, for a MP match where you spawn troops every match this is okay, it doesn't matter if some troops are easily killed, you just need to win. But for single player it's a big problem because you don't get your troops re-spawned every battle and a huge part of the strategy is minimizing how much non-combat time you spend. But why oh why would we have even remotely similar classes and armor/damage calc in the 500 hour long single player strategy RPG as we do in the 15min capture the flag with swords game? This is the problem, they need to just break the 2 apart completely.

 

[five bucks]

1. Yes. Some games take especially multi faceted, largely moddable and employing many units take years and years to completely optimize. Some never do.

2. Didnt realize he wanted to Triple the total amount of hitbox -yeah that some work. Take a look at TLD mods that have creatures with modified hitboxes- i still run 700+ army sizes. Matter of fact theres a hitbox editor built into the tools from Warband if IIRC -BRF editor. I think your imagining its harder than it actually is.

3. The mathematical fact that any thing new added will YES -slow down production schedule in some aspect, including your own wishlist.

And a Good Day Sir !!

Indeed, re 2 the problem is his thread is so long and overworded it can be hard to see the enormous amount of changes and additions he actually wants. As for TLD, I think it's more feasible in that case because Warband could run on a toaster. Bannerlord is much more demanding. Good day.

 

[Akka]

What others suggest is much more straightforward and what these devs may be capable of at this point; tweak the number values of armor/weapons (or match what Warband had at a minimum) so they make some common sense.

You don't even need that. You can just adjust the damage reduction formula, it's literally a 20-mn work (I've personally done it, it's not an exageration) and it makes battles much more enjoyable.

 

[five bucks]

And rocks are still feared (thought a bit better vs earlier patches).

Yes, they must have been changed. The accuracy at least went down a bit.

 

[Philozoraptor]

What I would be really for is either adding face hitbox or at least making it possible to mod it in.

 

[mujadaddy]

You don't even need that. You can just adjust the damage reduction formula, it's literally a 20-mn work (I've personally done it, it's not an exageration) and it makes battles much more enjoyable.

You don't even need to take 20 minutes any more....