weapon master: how many points?

[calandale]

I don't feel "god-like" in the mid 40s. You can certainly cheat a character to be ridiculous, but I doubt that anyone has the time to play enough to get to that point (though someone claimed lvl 62 - but I am skeptical of this).

 

[Momaw]

Sergeants and Guards trump Knights any day of the week if the terrain is favorable to infantry.

I'm smellin a lotta 'if' coming off this plan.

Not at all.

- Hills, or more properly bowls, helps keep your men grouped together tightly, which is what stalls a cavalry charge and quickly slaughters the riders.

- Trees and rocks (and even abandoned horses) serve as barricades, again, stalling a horse.

- Water renders horses unable to gallop, which removes lancing as a possibility unless the rider has extremely high Riding skill (which none of the stock troop types do).

Since map elements are determined by map location, an infantry company can often "bait" a horse-heavy pursuer into favorable territory for infantry.  A high Pathfinding skill is very useful for infantry groups.

Where you DON'T want to be, and where infantry will face high casualties, is on flat open ground. Cavalry will dominate here and rightly so.

In terms of the individual player, a polearm stab in the chest will stop a horse. The poleaxe is ideal for anti-cavalry use. Consider:  1.) stab the horse to stop it  2.) slash the horse to kill it  3.) slash the rider as he falls.  Unaware riders can often be cleared out of the saddle with one good slash as they ride past, but if they notice the attack they will easily block it. The awlpike is better suited to "combined arms";  often, the awlpike can kill a charging horse with one hit, causing the rider to slide into your party and be summarily executed.

With bows when you can shoot with pinpoint accuracy. Of course, you as a player have to have the skill to make use of that, but that's another thing. With other weapons it's more the matter of equipment than skills.

Not really true; with several points in Power Strike and high proficiency, even a junky "rusty broadsword" is a marvelously lethal weapon.  Unless you meant PLAYER skill?  In which case throwing and crossbows require the same steady hand that bows do, to hit anything at range.

 

[Archonsod]

Never bother investing in weapon mastery. PD is much more important with bows, and to be honest I don't see enough difference between the skill levels for melee weapons to make it worthwhile. There's nearly always a skill that would impact my game much more to invest those skill points in.

 

[Sordid Sinister]

With bows when you can shoot with pinpoint accuracy. Of course, you as a player have to have the skill to make use of that, but that's another thing. With other weapons it's more the matter of equipment than skills.

Not really true; with several points in Power Strike and high proficiency, even a junky "rusty broadsword" is a marvelously lethal weapon.

True, but it's much easier to own when unskilled with a sword than when unskilled with a bow, primarily because you can swing the sword an unlimited number of times, whereas with a bow you have to make every arrow count, which can be difficult if you can't aim properly due to low PD.

 

[Draksen]

Never bother investing in weapon mastery. PD is much more important with bows, and to be honest I don't see enough difference between the skill levels for melee weapons to make it worthwhile. There's nearly always a skill that would impact my game much more to invest those skill points in.

Ok, I see your point.
Thank you all for your help!

So, weapon mastery has no other impact on the game than raising the maximum amount of weapon prof.?
Does it make weapon prof. raise by training faster?
(if not, well, that could be cool, and handy)


EDIT:
Just a thought: if a character invests 1 point in WM, and another doesnt, the one with the 1 point in WM will have maybe +5-8 in weapon prof. than the other one for the same level. Now I understand that +5-8 points for 1 skill is a bit expensive... but still, it isnt totally "useless", is it?

 

[calandale]

So, weapon mastery has no other impact on the game than raising the maximum amount of weapon prof.?
Does it make weapon prof. raise by training faster?
(if not, well, that could be cool, and handy)


EDIT:
Just a thought: if a character invests 1 point in WM, and another doesnt, the one with the 1 point in WM will have maybe +5-8 in weapon prof. than the other one for the same level. Now I understand that +5-8 points for 1 skill is a bit expensive... but still, it isnt totally "useless", is it?

Those who claim to invest in it also claim an increase in the speed of development of the weapon skills. From the values that some have quoted for their primary weapons, it may well me much more than a few points, over time. Still, eventually you can always get that weapon skill high enough, but the leadership and tactics and power draw become real limitations when you don't raise levels quickly any longer. It makes more sense if you don't keep a character for too long, as it then becomes an issue of reaching your prefered levels rapidly.

 

[Archonsod]

From what I can tell, the lower your weapon value from it's maximum, the quicker it increases. Weapon Master helps this by increasing the maximum, however

 

[Draksen]

From what I can tell, the lower your weapon value from it's maximum, the quicker it increases. Weapon Master helps this by increasing the maximum, however

But points in WM do not increase the increase speed AFTER the maximum is reached (training)?

 

[Archonsod]

But points in WM do not increase the increase speed AFTER the maximum is reached (training)?

Not as far as I can see. Unless Armagan can confirm one way or the other I couldn't state for definite whether it does or doesn't, however from observation it appears that the chance to increase your skill is dependent on the difficulty (possibly speed modifier or damage for melee) of the shot related to your current % of your total skill cap (i.e. the maximum level you could invest skill points too).

In other words, with 150 points maximum in a skill, your chance at an increase per hit seems identical at 75 points as that of a character with only 40 points in the skill but an 80 point maximum. Once you hit the 'cap' then the % chance looks to be the same regardless of weapon mastery points.

If this is the case, then presumably it doesn't bottom out. In other words, it's possible that a low skill (say 5 points) on a character with 10 weapon mastery points has a greater than 100% probability of increasing with each hit.

 

[Silver]

It would make sense that it gets a higher chance than 100% to level up profiency as it happens a lot, all the times a skill increases with more than one.

 

[Master BOB]

Hm, it's still a bit strange. I have crossbow on something around 30 and tried a sniper crossbow once. With weapon Mastery 2 I got +2 every second shot or so. Would that be even higher if I had WM 10?

I usually never increase it more than up to 2. Everything else comes from fighting, and on level 32 I have bows and 2h weapons about 300, 1h and throwing weapons about 160 (as I used throwing daggers before and sometimes use the bastard sword 1h). And if someone tells me that he has the skill at 400 or even more, It just doesn't matter to me. Why use valuable skillpoints if it only gives you peanuts of advantages? Sure, with AGI 30 it would look cooler to have WM at 10, but I just don't have the points. And if I would, I'd invest them in other skills.
I use a Bastard Sword 2h as my main weapon (PS 6) and a Short Bow (PD 1) as secondary weapon. With all relevant STR-skills on 6 (my maximum) and athletics, riding and shield on 10/9/8 I see absolutely no point in increasing WM. And yes, riding really increases speed and maneuver. If you once have riding that high, you'll miss it if your way of playing is based on outmaneuvering enemies but your char has a low riding skill (try it out with cheating by editing the exported char file). As mentioned the horse is the only option to survive larger battles, although I managed to fight and kill 8 Dark Knights/Hunters with my first char (AGI-based archer on foot with a Sword of War as secondary weapon). But that is only possible with really good terrain and some luck (you have to keep as many of them as possible in sight or at least know which ones are close to you and from where they come).

I don't do the highest damage, compared with true 2h users, but I'm much more flexible. A speedy shield against ranged troops (that's why I need the shield skill, a big shield just looks awful with my char , and these crossbowmen can be a pain in the ass), the 2h version of the sword for melee, and the bow for far distances or riders that survived my first strike and try to run away (shoot the horse, kill the guy). High riding to completely outmaneuver large numbers of mounted troops (especially lancers). With this kind of playing it's absolutely useless to invest more points to WM, since it doesn't matter if I do 5 dmg more or less. I have speed through AGI and damage through Power Strike, and if I see it right that gives alot more advantage than Weapon Mastery. Plus if you really want to have something like an advantage through WM, you'll have to train it at the very beginning. Increasing it at level 30 would be meaningless, since you already have high proficiencies.


EDIT: Again too much text. I have to work on that...

 

[Draksen]

With a few points in WM (you usually mention 2) you will have a weapon prof cap (not trainign cap though) of 140, right?
You still can raise it via fighting/training but cant use the weapon prof points you get when you level (the 10 points or so you get when you level)...
So is there a point when you cant put these weapon prof points anymore in any weapon cathegory?
could it be the strength of WM after all?! ...

(NOTE: I asked that same question in another thread, for a skill modification idea. This one is more to understand the mechanics of the skill)

 

[Sordid Sinister]

In other words, it's possible that a low skill (say 5 points) on a character with 10 weapon mastery points has a greater than 100% probability of increasing with each hit.

Which might well be what happens when you increase your prof by two points with a single hit.

 

[Archonsod]

So is there a point when you cant put these weapon prof points anymore in any weapon cathegory?

Oh yes. If you don't take Weapon Master at all then you can reach it quite quickly. Presumably if you played long enough you could reach the point where it's impossible to invest any more points in either weapon master or the skills themselves.

The points will pool though. It's possible to increase all skills to their limit, then 'store' points until you increase weapon mastery. Not sure why you'd want to do so though.

 

[Master BOB]

With a few points in WM (you usually mention 2) you will have a weapon prof cap (not trainign cap though) of 140, right?
You still can raise it via fighting/training but cant use the weapon prof points you get when you level (the 10 points or so you get when you level)...
So is there a point when you cant put these weapon prof points anymore in any weapon cathegory?
could it be the strength of WM after all?! ...

Peanuts. at 140 the weapon skills need already many point to be increased. I rather increase crossbow with 2-3 points per weapon point than 1 skill point to WM to be able to put 20 points on 2h to increase it by 1. Even if I'll never ever use a crossbow, it's just too wasted at this high rate. Increasing it by fighting goes automaticly, and I don't need WM for that.
Believe me, as soon as you reach high levels (let's say around 25), you really start to think twice over every single skill point you use, since the next one will need damn long fighting.

EDIT: Of course you can train WM if you have no real use for other skills. In my case I use many different skills, so there are never skill points left for WM. But I remember that my first char (the one with the 8 dark knights) had alot WM and profs of more than 400 in bows and more than 300 in 2h weapons at level 24 (that was when I started a new char). Thats much more than my actual char has at level 32, so it's still not completely useless. You just need the skill point for it 

 

[barton quint]

I was wondering something.  I did a search on weapon master and found this thread.  A lot of the posts are telling me Ive wasted my time getting my WM to a 6.  Perhaps...

That would be a shame.  But at first I really was wondering about the levels WM progresses at.  At lvl 6, by what the description in the character screen says about WM, I should have a limit of 300 on my proficiencies, right?  Or is the first number listed the limit for a WM lvl of 1?  I didnt think so, but anyway, right now I have 15 weapons points to spend and no available "plus" button next to proficiencies of 292 and 284. 

Could that be just because at higher prof. it takes more weapons points to raise 1 pt? 

edit/add:

It just changed and for some reason now it has the "plus" button to upgrade stuff it wouldn't let me before.  Nothing has changed except I fought some battles and such stuff.  There is something a little deeper to this whole weapon proficiency thing. 

 

[Sturmspawn]

The 'limit' of wm is the point at which you can no longer apply the level-earned weapons points. Proficiency will still develop above those caps by battle events, but you can't explicitly add points to a capped proficiency without incrementing WM. The 40-point groups start at 0. If WM is 0, you can manually add up to 40 points.

This discussion is now taking place on two threads - this link is in apprentice guild, and I suggest you relocate there

http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,22664.0.html

 

[Draksen]

I've started out a new game, and been putting almost all points into agility and maxing weapon mastery whenever I get the chance.  Anyways, I'm getting some very quick profficieny gain. 

sorry for resurrecting this old thread (better than starting a new one, after all )

That is a thing that I still dont understand with WM:
When you reach the weapon prof. level of your WM, is your weapon prof. gain still faster than without WM?
Everybody is talking about how fast you get weapon prof. with WM, but they are talking about weapon prof. gain BEFORE reaching the limit...
Cause before reaching that point, it's clear that the character with WM points will get his weapon prof. points very fast, but when he will reach the set weapon prof. points, is there any use in WMl anymore?

Just as an example. two character at level 50, one with WM=10 the other with WM=0, both at 500 weapon prof. in archery (so basically clearly above the effect limit of WM)...
If they fight the same battle, do the WM=10 character get archery at 501 before the other guy?

 

[EmoGrass]

i normally only get 4 wm points..i normally don't get much higher then that so theres no point in wasting skill points on it

 

[Draksen]

I made a test yesterday, by editing a character cheat:

I set my 1hd weapon's weapon prof at 141 (just above the limit for WM=2, so WM's fast learning wont have an effect anymore),
and killed things until I get weapon prof 145.

I did it first with a character with WM=0. It took me 81 "sword swings" to reach 145.
Then I did it with WM=2, and it took me 78 "sword swings" to reach 145.

My temporary conclusion:
Once you reach the weapon prof limit, WM is useless.
WM is good for training faster weapon prof until the limit, but if you play your character a lot, you will eventually reach the same weapon prof sooner or later, even if you dont spend points in WM.