Weapon damage comparison table

[Pode]

First, a look under the hood at how damage is calculated.  Some bits spoilered for those who wish to trust me with the maths and skip ahead to results, or who hate long posts 

Armagan has posted the mechanics of how the engine calculates damage.  It's a simple 2 term product formula based on a random damage roll (50-100% of nominal for an average of 75%) and a random target armor roll (same), with different coefficients in each term for blunt, piercing, and cutting damage.
In the first term, which represents the damage deflected/absorbed by the armor (armor soak factor, what it takes to stab a sword point thru the armor):

Spoiler

Cutting damage = 3/4 Nominal damage - 0.65 * 3/4 Nominal armor
Piercing damage = 3/4 Nominal damage - 0.35 * 3/4 Nominal armor
Blunt damage = 3/4 Nominal damage - 0.30 * 3/4 Nominal armor

This result is then multiplied by the armor reduction factor (representing the damage / energy needed to push the sword in deep)

Spoiler

Cutting RF = 1 - 3/4 Nominal damage / 100
Blunt / Piercing RF = 1 - 0.65 * 3/4 Nominal damage / 100

So which weapon does the most damage depends very much on what armor the target is wearing, making a comparison tough.  Today, finally, after banging my head against this problem off and on for over a year, it dawned on me to take the integral, the area under the curve, for any given weapon over the entire range of armors in PoP and compare weapons based on the total damage they could dish out against everything. 

I quickly modified this when I realized that dealing a point of damage vs 10 armor wasn't nearly as important as a point against 40 armor.  So what I actually integrated was the product of (the average damage vs an armor rating) times (the armor it was inflicted against).  So 1 point against 40 armor counts for a score of 40, where it takes 40 points against 1 armor to score the same.  Integrate this D*A function over the range of armors and I'd have something that told me how well a weapon performed over the whole spectrum, but with a bias towards taking out top tier stuff.

So here's the result, for all armors up to PoP's maximum armor of 87 (reinforced Demonplate + reinforced gauntlets, if you're curious). First column is nominal damage that shows up in the weapon description (up to 75P for a ruby 2 hander).  Second is the rating if it's a cutting weapon, pierce is third, and blunt is fourth.

Spoiler

Nom D DcA DpA DbA
1 -530 -373 -316
2 -514 -352 -296
3 -498 -332 -276
4 -482 -311 -255
5 -466 -291 -235
6 -450 -271 -215
7 -434 -250 -194
8 -418 -230 -174
9 -402 -210 -154
10 -386 -189 -133
11 -370 -169 -113
12 -354 -149 -92
13 -338 -128 -72
14 -322 -108 -52
15 -306 -88 -31
16 -290 -67 -11
17 -274 -47 9
18 -258 -26 30
19 -242 -6 50
20 -226 14 70
21 -210 35 91
22 -194 55 111
23 -178 75 131
24 -162 96 152
25 -145 116 172
26 -129 136 193
27 -113 157 213
28 -97 177 233
29 -81 197 254
30 -65 218 274
31 -49 238 294
32 -33 259 315
33 -17 279 335
34 -1 299 355
35 15 320 376
36 31 340 396
37 47 360 416
38 63 381 437
39 79 401 457
40 95 421 478
41 111 442 498
42 127 462 518
43 143 482 539
44 159 503 559
45 175 523 579
46 191 544 600
47 207 564 620
48 223 584 640
49 239 605 661
50 255 625 681
51 271 645 701
52 288 666 722
53 304 686 742
54 320 706 763
55 336 727 783
56 352 747 803
57 368 768 824
58 384 788 844
59 400 808 864
60 416 829 885
61 432 849 905
62 448 869 925
63 464 890 946
64 480 910 966
65 496 930 987
66 512 951 1007
67 528 971 1027
68 544 991 1048
69 560 1012 1068
70 576 1032 1088
71 592 1053 1109
72 608 1073 1129
73 624 1093 1149
74 640 1114 1170
75 656 1134 1190

Great, but how do I use this you say?  Suppose I'm trying to decide between buying a Ravenstern long sword of 31C (IIRC, it's an example, don't beat me up about the details) and a spiked mace of 20B.  I go to the 31 in the first column, look across to the 2nd, and see the sword is rated at -49.  It's very common for high armors to result in negative average damage, as I'm ignoring speed, strength, and a host of other modifiers to look at the baseline.  Since the rating system is biased toward performance against high armor, this negative rating doesn't scare me off.  After all, the mace might be even lower.  Now I go to the 20 in the first column, look across to the 4th for blunts, and see that the mace is rated at 70.  So the mace is a better weapon against the broad range of targets, as it makes up for low damage against farmers with high damage against knights.

All this is ignoring reach and speed, but we already used calculus just to get this far

 

[kaeldragor]

First, a look under the hood at how damage is calculated.  Some bits spoilered for those who wish to trust me with the maths and skip ahead to results, or who hate long posts 

Armagan has posted the mechanics of how the engine calculates damage.  It's a simple 2 term product formula based on a random damage roll (50-100% of nominal for an average of 75%) and a random target armor roll (same), with different coefficients in each term for blunt, piercing, and cutting damage.
In the first term, which represents the damage deflected/absorbed by the armor (armor soak factor, what it takes to stab a sword point thru the armor):

Spoiler

Cutting damage = 3/4 Nominal damage - 0.65 * 3/4 Nominal armor
Piercing damage = 3/4 Nominal damage - 0.35 * 3/4 Nominal armor
Blunt damage = 3/4 Nominal damage - 0.30 * 3/4 Nominal armor

This result is then multiplied by the armor reduction factor (representing the damage / energy needed to push the sword in deep)

Spoiler

Cutting RF = 1 - 3/4 Nominal damage / 100
Blunt / Piercing RF = 1 - 0.65 * 3/4 Nominal damage / 100

So which weapon does the most damage depends very much on what armor the target is wearing, making a comparison tough.  Today, finally, after banging my head against this problem off and on for over a year, it dawned on me to take the integral, the area under the curve, for any given weapon over the entire range of armors in PoP and compare weapons based on the total damage they could dish out against everything. 

I quickly modified this when I realized that dealing a point of damage vs 10 armor wasn't nearly as important as a point against 40 armor.  So what I actually integrated was the product of (the average damage vs an armor rating) times (the armor it was inflicted against).  So 1 point against 40 armor counts for a score of 40, where it takes 40 points against 1 armor to score the same.  Integrate this D*A function over the range of armors and I'd have something that told me how well a weapon performed over the whole spectrum, but with a bias towards taking out top tier stuff.

So here's the result, for all armors up to PoP's maximum armor of 87 (reinforced Demonplate + reinforced gauntlets, if you're curious). First column is nominal damage that shows up in the weapon description (up to 75P for a ruby 2 hander).  Second is the rating if it's a cutting weapon, pierce is third, and blunt is fourth.

Spoiler

Nom D DcA DpA DbA
1 -530 -373 -316
2 -514 -352 -296
3 -498 -332 -276
4 -482 -311 -255
5 -466 -291 -235
6 -450 -271 -215
7 -434 -250 -194
8 -418 -230 -174
9 -402 -210 -154
10 -386 -189 -133
11 -370 -169 -113
12 -354 -149 -92
13 -338 -128 -72
14 -322 -108 -52
15 -306 -88 -31
16 -290 -67 -11
17 -274 -47 9
18 -258 -26 30
19 -242 -6 50
20 -226 14 70
21 -210 35 91
22 -194 55 111
23 -178 75 131
24 -162 96 152
25 -145 116 172
26 -129 136 193
27 -113 157 213
28 -97 177 233
29 -81 197 254
30 -65 218 274
31 -49 238 294
32 -33 259 315
33 -17 279 335
34 -1 299 355
35 15 320 376
36 31 340 396
37 47 360 416
38 63 381 437
39 79 401 457
40 95 421 478
41 111 442 498
42 127 462 518
43 143 482 539
44 159 503 559
45 175 523 579
46 191 544 600
47 207 564 620
48 223 584 640
49 239 605 661
50 255 625 681
51 271 645 701
52 288 666 722
53 304 686 742
54 320 706 763
55 336 727 783
56 352 747 803
57 368 768 824
58 384 788 844
59 400 808 864
60 416 829 885
61 432 849 905
62 448 869 925
63 464 890 946
64 480 910 966
65 496 930 987
66 512 951 1007
67 528 971 1027
68 544 991 1048
69 560 1012 1068
70 576 1032 1088
71 592 1053 1109
72 608 1073 1129
73 624 1093 1149
74 640 1114 1170
75 656 1134 1190

Great, but how do I use this you say?  Suppose I'm trying to decide between buying a Ravenstern long sword of 31C (IIRC, it's an example, don't beat me up about the details) and a spiked mace of 20B.  I go to the 31 in the first column, look across to the 2nd, and see the sword is rated at -49.  It's very common for high armors to result in negative average damage, as I'm ignoring speed, strength, and a host of other modifiers to look at the baseline.  Since the rating system is biased toward performance against high armor, this negative rating doesn't scare me off.  After all, the mace might be even lower.  Now I go to the 20 in the first column, look across to the 4th for blunts, and see that the mace is rated at 70.  So the mace is a better weapon against the broad range of targets, as it makes up for low damage against farmers with high damage against knights.

All this is ignoring reach and speed, but we already used calculus just to get this far

Great post and very useful in any mod with many difficult opponents (PoP being the master of that category in my opinion.)

I'm tempted to append with speed and reach suggestions and observations (no math, just tips), but food calls.  I may come back though.

 

[Pode]

Thanks.  The table values are strong functions of the maximum armor in the mod, so for a mod with less brutal armor than Demonplate, the table's not valid.  If you send me the max armor value for another mod I can gin up a new table in about 30 seconds.  More to the point, I can redo it for this mod based on an assumption that you're not going to fight reinforced demonplate often enough to seriously consider it.  Some Noldor get 60s, Pendor Knights get 58 plus gauntlets and modifiers, so I'd nominate them as alternates for "most heavily armed thing I face often enough to affect my weapon choices"

My thoughts on speed/reach lines are to just multiply this rating by reach and speed and compare two weapons at a time that way.  After all, you can't use the best, you can only use the best you've found.  Convincing excel to read itemkinds and compute all this for every weapon is daunting. 

 

[faigulla]

Weapon speed and reach play some part here, since the blunt weapon is definitely better against a wide variety of targets (I used to play a lot with piercing or blunt weapons), now I'm running around PoP with a Balanced Pendor Great Sword, 51c, 31p, 95 weapon speed and an amazing 135 of weapon reach. Compare that to a double handed warhammer (blunt), which is around 80 (and speed is significantly slower too). And if your character has 9 Power Strike like mine, then you can compensate some of the defficiencies of a cutting weapon against higher end armor, not to mention that I can strike them before they strike me.

Blunt weapons, and piercing to an extent, are better for higher end armor, no question about it. Now that I think about it, there is a double handed blunt weapon (warhammer), but there is no double handed melee pierce weapon (if you don't count the bow).

 

[kekn06ab]

I guess it is hard to figure out exactly how to evaluate the importance of weapons against armor. I think you are right, there are so many high armor targets in PoP that this should be weighted higher. I doubt that they follow your formula though

Nevertheless, it makes me able to apply my personal preferences and weights rather easily, such as reach, speed, blunt (for prisoners), (looks?) or the ability to do couched damage. You've taken the first step that seemed somewhat near impossible at first sight... Good work!

 

[Bank Robber]

Awesome post but you forgot that you can always thrust the sword if you want to deal piercing damage. Against a charging mounted knight it works really well and results in a 1hit kill.


Reach and speed are far more important than damage with speed being the most important. I remember one time that I decided to capture me some prisoners and took a warhammer, I couldn't kill anyone, but with pendor greatsword I dominate the battlefield.

Of course this is my playing style as I play a strong fast foot-soldier. I bet morningstar/shield works well too for a more defensive or mounted approach but I can't play any other way except with a 2h sword. Thats what's really awesome with M&B, that its really balanced and you can pick any weapon combination you feel comfortable with and deal some serious damage with it.

 

[M0rdred]

I agree, it depends alot on the weapon. Generally I look at reach before damage, and if im going sword and board then speed takes a big factor (So I can block and counter... with some weapons twice).

 

[Pode]

Awesome post but you forgot that you can always thrust the sword if you want to deal piercing damage. Against a charging mounted knight it works really well and results in a 1hit kill.

In the example, yes, I did overlook that.  But if that's how you want to evaluate the sword, just find its thrust damage in the 1st column and look over to the 3rd column for pierce and use the rating you find there.

I think I'm going to rename the thread, as I am ignoring bonuses / penalties, speed and reach for now and I suspect we'll all have different opionons on how they should be weighted anyway.  The only thing (other than the choice of max armor) that's arbitrary about this table was my decision to multiply damage by the armor it was inflicted on before integrating.  That's a value judgement, but I think a very defensible one.  Otherwise the procedure gives just straight mathmatical fact, it is the sum total damage inflicted by a weapon over the range of armors.

Other thing to keep in mind is that this is comparing weapons against one another, not against targets.  With the +90% damage from 9 power strike, the PGS will kill most anything, true.  But a two-handed warhammer gets the same +90% (IF you can connect with it) and will kill it deader.  Which might come in handy if you want to take out the one horse with a base armor of 90.

And Dan_Grr,

Spoiler

rubies make cutting weapons piercing   Sucks for the Ruby bow cuz it doens't get the damage type upgrade, but that's how you get a 75P 2H sword.

 

[noosers]

Heck. So much work and effort put up for a question usually decided by my stomach. Sword or Axe? Mace or Star? Blunt or Pierce?

Whatever I like most and looks cool

 

[Pode]

Heck. So much work and effort put up for a question usually decided by my stomach. Sword or Axe? Mace or Star? Blunt or Pierce?

Whatever I like most and looks cool

What can I say except: caution: Engineer at play 

 

[Misguided]

*Newtonian babble that leaves all but a handful of forum denizens scratching their heads.*

Yeah.... you're not helping the whole Data thing, you know.

-Misguided


(Great post tho!)

 

[Pode]

A revised damage rating table, based on a maximum armor of 64 (Noldor Rune Armor with no modifiers or gloves, or several knightly plate armors with gauntlets).  Demonplate is scary, but this is more representative of the top end opposition that you'll actually fight more than once.  Same derivation, layout and use as before.  Should be a little kinder to swords this time

Spoiler

Amax 64
Nom D DcA DpA DbA
1 -262 -164 -138
2 -252 -151 -126
3 -241 -139 -114
4 -231 -127 -102
5 -220 -115 -90
6 -210 -103 -78
7 -200 -91 -65
8 -189 -78 -53
9 -179 -66 -41
10 -168 -54 -29
11 -158 -42 -17
12 -147 -30 -5
13 -137 -18 8
14 -126 -5 20
15 -116 7 32
16 -106 19 44
17 -95 31 56
18 -85 43 68
19 -74 55 81
20 -64 68 93
21 -53 80 105
22 -43 92 117
23 -32 104 129
24 -22 116 141
25 -12 128 154
26 -1 141 166
27 9 153 178
28 20 165 190
29 30 177 202
30 41 189 214
31 51 201 227
32 62 214 239
33 72 226 251
34 82 238 263
35 93 250 275
36 103 262 287
37 114 274 300
38 124 287 312
39 135 299 324
40 145 311 336
41 156 323 348
42 166 335 360
43 176 347 372
44 187 360 385
45 197 372 397
46 208 384 409
47 218 396 421
48 229 408 433
49 239 420 445
50 250 433 458
51 260 445 470
52 270 457 482
53 281 469 494
54 291 481 506
55 302 493 518
56 312 506 531
57 323 518 543
58 333 530 555
59 344 542 567
60 354 554 579
61 365 566 591
62 375 579 604
63 385 591 616
64 396 603 628
65 406 615 640
66 417 627 652
67 427 639 664
68 438 652 677
69 448 664 689
70 459 676 701
71 469 688 713
72 479 700 725
73 490 712 737
74 500 725 750
75 511 737 762

 

[Pode]

Severe (and self-promoting) necromancy, apologies. But a new PoP meant new weapon balancing and new weapons, and that meant that my previous work was wrong. I hate being wrong in public. So I redid all this.
In the time since this thread last lived, I've learned how strength, skills, proficiencies, and weapon type all affect damage. As long as you're comparing two weapons of the same type (2 bows, 2 melee weapons, etc) all those factors are constant for your character and you should use this table that ignores them all. (Ansiktslos, this is for you and Little Girl, it's done for 0s in every stat)

Spoiler

Nominal Int(D*A) Cut Int(D*A) Pierce Int(D*A) Blunt
1 -36.30 -40.90 -39.54
2 -35.49 -39.85 -38.46
3 -34.67 -38.81 -37.38
4 -33.86 -37.77 -36.31
5 -33.04 -36.72 -35.23
6 -32.23 -35.68 -34.15
7 -31.41 -34.63 -33.07
8 -30.60 -33.59 -32.00
9 -29.78 -32.54 -30.92
10 -28.97 -31.50 -29.84
11 -28.15 -30.45 -28.77
12 -27.34 -29.41 -27.69
13 -26.52 -28.36 -26.61
14 -25.71 -27.32 -25.53
15 -24.89 -26.28 -24.46
16 -24.08 -25.23 -23.38
17 -23.26 -24.19 -22.30
18 -22.45 -23.14 -21.22
19 -21.63 -22.10 -20.15
20 -20.82 -21.05 -19.07
21 -20.00 -20.01 -17.99
22 -19.19 -18.96 -16.92
23 -18.37 -17.92 -15.84
24 -17.56 -16.88 -14.76
25 -16.74 -15.83 -13.68
26 -15.93 -14.79 -12.61
27 -15.11 -13.74 -11.53
28 -14.30 -12.70 -10.45
29 -13.48 -11.65 -9.37
30 -12.67 -10.61 -8.30
31 -11.85 -9.56 -7.22
32 -11.04 -8.52 -6.14
33 -10.22 -7.48 -5.07
34 -9.41 -6.43 -3.99
35 -8.59 -5.39 -2.91
36 -7.78 -4.34 -1.83
37 -6.96 -3.30 -0.76
38 -6.15 -2.25 0.32
39 -5.33 -1.21 1.40
40 -4.52 -0.16 2.48
41 -3.70 0.88 3.55
42 -2.89 1.93 4.63
43 -2.07 2.97 5.71
44 -1.26 4.01 6.78
45 -0.44 5.06 7.86
46 0.38 6.10 8.94
47 1.19 7.15 10.02
48 2.01 8.19 11.09
49 2.82 9.24 12.17
50 3.64 10.28 13.25
51 4.45 11.33 14.32
52 5.27 12.37 15.40
53 6.08 13.41 16.48
54 6.90 14.46 17.56
55 7.71 15.50 18.63
56 8.53 16.55 19.71
57 9.34 17.59 20.79
58 10.16 18.64 21.87
59 10.97 19.68 22.94
60 11.79 20.73 24.02
61 12.60 21.77 25.10
62 13.42 22.81 26.17
63 14.23 23.86 27.25
64 15.05 24.90 28.33
65 15.86 25.95 29.41
66 16.68 26.99 30.48
67 17.49 28.04 31.56
68 18.31 29.08 32.64
69 19.12 30.13 33.72
70 19.94 31.17 34.79
71 20.75 32.22 35.87
72 21.57 33.26 36.95
73 22.38 34.30 38.02
74 23.20 35.35 39.10
75 24.01 36.39 40.18
76 24.83 37.44 41.26
77 25.64 38.48 42.33
78 26.46 39.53 43.41
79 27.27 40.57 44.49
80 28.09 41.62 45.56
81 28.90 42.66 46.64
82 29.72 43.70 47.72
83 30.53 44.75 48.80
84 31.35 45.79 49.87
85 32.16 46.84 50.95
86 32.98 47.88 52.03
87 33.79 48.93 53.11
88 34.61 49.97 54.18
89 35.42 51.02 55.26
90 36.24 52.06 56.34
91 37.05 53.10 57.41
92 37.87 54.15 58.49
93 38.69 55.19 59.57
94 39.50 56.24 60.65
95 40.32 57.28 61.72
96 41.13 58.33 62.80
97 41.95 59.37 63.88
98 42.76 60.42 64.96
99 43.58 61.46 66.03
100 44.39 62.50 67.11

If you want to compare different types of weapon to determine your specialty, pick what rune weapon, etc., you need to pick a set of stats to do your comparison at.  At a nice midgame level, you've got your 24 STR to use everything, 18 AGI for your Noldor horse, 8 PS/T/D, and 200 WP. Here's that table:

Spoiler

Nominal Int(D*A) Cut Int(D*A) Pierce Int(D*A) Blunt
1 -30.09 -32.94 -31.32
2 -28.28 -30.61 -28.93
3 -26.46 -28.29 -26.53
4 -24.65 -25.97 -24.14
5 -22.84 -23.64 -21.74
6 -21.03 -21.32 -19.35
7 -19.21 -19.00 -16.95
8 -17.40 -16.68 -14.56
9 -15.59 -14.35 -12.16
10 -13.78 -12.03 -9.76
11 -11.96 -9.71 -7.37
12 -10.15 -7.39 -4.97
13 -8.34 -5.06 -2.58
14 -6.53 -2.74 -0.18
15 -4.71 -0.42 2.21
16 -2.90 1.91 4.61
17 -1.09 4.23 7.01
18 0.72 6.55 9.40
19 2.54 8.87 11.80
20 4.35 11.20 14.19
21 6.16 13.52 16.59
22 7.98 15.84 18.98
23 9.79 18.17 21.38
24 11.60 20.49 23.77
25 13.41 22.81 26.17
26 15.23 25.13 28.57
27 17.04 27.46 30.96
28 18.85 29.78 33.36
29 20.66 32.10 35.75
30 22.48 34.42 38.15
31 24.29 36.75 40.54
32 26.10 39.07 42.94
33 27.91 41.39 45.34
34 29.73 43.72 47.73
35 31.54 46.04 50.13
36 33.35 48.36 52.52
37 35.17 50.68 54.92
38 36.98 53.01 57.31
39 38.79 55.33 59.71
40 40.60 57.65 62.10
41 42.42 59.97 64.50
42 44.23 62.30 66.90
43 46.04 64.62 69.29
44 47.85 66.94 71.69
45 49.67 69.27 74.08
46 51.48 71.59 76.48
47 53.29 73.91 78.87
48 55.10 76.23 81.27
49 56.92 78.56 83.67
50 58.73 80.88 86.06
51 60.54 83.20 88.46
52 62.36 85.52 90.85
53 64.17 87.85 93.25
54 65.98 90.17 95.64
55 67.79 92.49 98.04
56 69.61 94.82 100.43
57 71.42 97.14 102.83
58 73.23 99.46 105.23
59 75.04 101.78 107.62
60 76.86 104.11 110.02
61 78.67 106.43 112.41
62 80.48 108.75 114.81
63 82.29 111.08 117.20
64 84.11 113.40 119.60
65 85.92 115.72 122.00
66 87.73 118.04 124.39
67 89.55 120.37 126.79
68 91.36 122.69 129.18
69 93.17 125.01 131.58
70 94.98 127.33 133.97
71 96.80 129.66 136.37
72 98.61 131.98 138.76
73 100.42 134.30 141.16
74 102.23 136.63 143.56
75 104.05 138.95 145.95
76 105.86 141.27 148.35
77 107.67 143.59 150.74
78 109.48 145.92 153.14
79 111.30 148.24 155.53
80 113.11 150.56 157.93
81 114.92 152.88 160.33
82 116.74 155.21 162.72
83 118.55 157.53 165.12
84 120.36 159.85 167.51
85 122.17 162.18 169.91
86 123.99 164.50 172.30
87 125.80 166.82 174.70
88 127.61 169.14 177.09
89 129.42 171.47 179.49
90 131.24 173.79 181.89
91 133.05 176.11 184.28
92 134.86 178.44 186.68
93 136.67 180.76 189.07
94 138.49 183.08 191.47
95 140.30 185.40 193.86
96 142.11 187.73 196.26
97 143.93 190.05 198.66
98 145.74 192.37 201.05
99 147.55 194.69 203.45
100 149.36 197.02 205.84

Endgame maxed everything, when Leth has finished training your CKO to 500 WP and you're trying to decide how to equip them in the fewest steps, use this table.

Spoiler

Nominal Int(D*A) Cut Int(D*A) Pierce Int(D*A) Blunt
1 -27.83 -30.03 -28.33
2 -25.05 -26.48 -24.67
3 -22.28 -22.93 -21.00
4 -19.51 -19.37 -17.34
5 -16.73 -15.82 -13.67
6 -13.96 -12.27 -10.01
7 -11.19 -8.71 -6.34
8 -8.41 -5.16 -2.68
9 -5.64 -1.61 0.99
10 -2.87 1.95 4.65
11 -0.10 5.50 8.32
12 2.68 9.05 11.98
13 5.45 12.61 15.65
14 8.22 16.16 19.31
15 11.00 19.71 22.98
16 13.77 23.27 26.64
17 16.54 26.82 30.30
18 19.31 30.37 33.97
19 22.09 33.93 37.63
20 24.86 37.48 41.30
21 27.63 41.03 44.96
22 30.41 44.59 48.63
23 33.18 48.14 52.29
24 35.95 51.69 55.96
25 38.73 55.25 59.62
26 41.50 58.80 63.29
27 44.27 62.35 66.95
28 47.04 65.91 70.62
29 49.82 69.46 74.28
30 52.59 73.01 77.95
31 55.36 76.57 81.61
32 58.14 80.12 85.28
33 60.91 83.67 88.94
34 63.68 87.23 92.61
35 66.46 90.78 96.27
36 69.23 94.33 99.94
37 72.00 97.89 103.60
38 74.77 101.44 107.27
39 77.55 104.99 110.93
40 80.32 108.55 114.60
41 83.09 112.10 118.26
42 85.87 115.65 121.92
43 88.64 119.21 125.59
44 91.41 122.76 129.25
45 94.19 126.31 132.92
46 96.96 129.87 136.58
47 99.73 133.42 140.25
48 102.50 136.97 143.91
49 105.28 140.53 147.58
50 108.05 144.08 151.24
51 110.82 147.63 154.91
52 113.60 151.19 158.57
53 116.37 154.74 162.24
54 119.14 158.29 165.90
55 121.92 161.85 169.57
56 124.69 165.40 173.23
57 127.46 168.95 176.90
58 130.23 172.51 180.56
59 133.01 176.06 184.23
60 135.78 179.61 187.89
61 138.55 183.17 191.56
62 141.33 186.72 195.22
63 144.10 190.27 198.89
64 146.87 193.83 202.55
65 149.65 197.38 206.21
66 152.42 200.93 209.88
67 155.19 204.49 213.54
68 157.96 208.04 217.21
69 160.74 211.59 220.87
70 163.51 215.15 224.54
71 166.28 218.70 228.20
72 169.06 222.25 231.87
73 171.83 225.81 235.53
74 174.60 229.36 239.20
75 177.38 232.91 242.86
76 180.15 236.47 246.53
77 182.92 240.02 250.19
78 185.69 243.57 253.86
79 188.47 247.13 257.52
80 191.24 250.68 261.19
81 194.01 254.23 264.85
82 196.79 257.79 268.52
83 199.56 261.34 272.18
84 202.33 264.89 275.85
85 205.10 268.45 279.51
86 207.88 272.00 283.18
87 210.65 275.55 286.84
88 213.42 279.11 290.51
89 216.20 282.66 294.17
90 218.97 286.21 297.83
91 221.74 289.77 301.50
92 224.52 293.32 305.16
93 227.29 296.87 308.83
94 230.06 300.42 312.49
95 232.83 303.98 316.16
96 235.61 307.53 319.82
97 238.38 311.08 323.49
98 241.15 314.64 327.15
99 243.93 318.19 330.82
100 246.70 321.74 334.48

Reminder, this is considering what weapon will do the most armor penetrating damage for each hit, across the spectrum of armors from naked Berserker to Knight in full plate. Speed and reach aren't considered. I'm working on that, but only for a select subset of top end gear, because SO MANY THINGS.

 

[khornebread]

Nice work Pode, had not seen before.  You might want to make minimum damgage value in your integral = 0 since being -49 damage or zero damage is irrelevant for that particular armor score.  Being sucky vs knights does not affect being great vs peasants.

 

[gabriot]

This almost deserves a sticky

 

[Audustum]

Raw damage does not get a random roll, it's all speed rating/random armor soak and reduction/holding bonus/body part multiplier.

Here's a calculator that only accounts for Raw Damage and average damage vs armor. You'll have to make your own if you want to account for the latter multipliers above.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ag5R9vD8esLKdFJyWjVHaFdSYURfUEJ1aXhVMGFTNWc&usp=sharing

 

[Pode]

Nice work Pode, had not seen before.  You might want to make minimum damgage value in your integral = 0 since being -49 damage or zero damage is irrelevant for that particular armor score.  Being sucky vs knights does not affect being great vs peasants.

True, but the speed bonuses and such ignored here mean that it still matters exactly how much it sucks vs knights for comparison purposes, so I left the negatives.

Raw damage does not get a random roll, it's all speed rating/random armor soak and reduction/holding bonus/body part multiplier.

Sure about that? Was pretty sure one of the devs explained that base damage was 50-100% of nominal just like base armor. Looks like I need to do yet more forum archeology for definitive answers.

 

[Audustum]

Something along the lines of

if hold_time >= 1.1
	hold_bonus = 1.2
elif hold_time >= 0.6:
	hold_bonus = (1.1 - hold_time) * 0.6 + 1.2
elif hold_time >= 0.5:
	hold_bonus = 1.5
else:
	hold_bonus = hold_time + 1.0

raw_damage = weapon_damage * (clamp(hold_bonus, 1.0, 2.0) * 0.5 + 0.5)

if weapon_type == 'one_handed' or weapon_type == 'two_handed' or weapon_type == 'polearm':
	raw_damage *= math.pow(melee_damage_speed_power, speed_bonus)
elif weapon_type == 'crossbow' or weapon_type == 'bow' or weapon_type == 'throwing':
	raw_damage *= math.pow(missile_damage_speed_power, speed_bonus)

if weapon_type == 'crossbow':
	if raining:
		raw_damage *= 0.75
else:
	raw_damage *= proficiency * 0.01 * 0.15 + 0.85
	
	if weapon_type == 'bow':
		raw_damage *= min(power_draw, difficulty + 4) * 0.14 + 1
		
		if mounted:
			raw_damage *= horse_archery * 0.019 + 0.8
		
		if raining:
			raw_damage *= 0.9
	elif weapon_type == 'throwing':
		raw_damage *= power_throw * 0.1 + 1.0
		
		if mounted:
			raw_damage *= horse_archery * 0.019 + 0.8
	elif weapon_type == 'one_handed' or weapon_type == 'two_handed' or weapon_type == 'polearm':
		raw_damage *= power_strike * 0.08 + 1.0

	raw_damage += strength / 5.0

	if (weapon_type == 'two_handed' or weapon_type == 'polearm') and (has_shield or mounted):
		raw_damage *= 0.85
		
		if weapon_type == 'polearm':
			raw_damage *= 0.85
		
		if weapon_flags & itp_two_handed:
			raw_damage *= 0.9

raw_damage = clamp(raw_damage, 0, 500)

armor = appropriate_armor_value_for_hit_location

if hit_shield_on_back:
	armor += shield_resistance + 10

soak_factor = armor * module.ini_soak_factor_for_damage_type
reduction_factor = armor * module.ini_reduction_factor_for_damage_type

if item_flags & itp_extra_penetration:
	soak_factor *= module.ini_extra_penetration_soak_factor
	reduction_factor *= module.ini_extra_penetration_reduction_factor

randomized_soak = (random.random() * 0.55 + 0.45) * soak_factor
randomized_damage = (random.random() * 0.1 + 0.9) * raw_damage
soaked_damage = randomized_damage - randomized_soak

if (soaked_damage < 0.0):
	soaked_damage = 0.0

randomized_reduction = math.exp((random.random() * 0.55 + 0.45) * reduction_factor * 0.014)
reduced_damage = (1.0 - 1.0 / randomized_reduction) * soaked_damage

if (reduction_factor < 0.00001):
	reduced_damage  = 0.0

damage_difference = round(reduced_damage + randomized_soak)
effective_damage = randomized_damage - damage_difference

if hit_bone == head:
	effective_damage *= 1.2

	if item_is_ranged:
		effective_damage *= 1.75
elif hit_bone == calf or hit_bone == thigh:
	effective_damage *= 0.9

effective_damage = clamp(effective_damage, 0.0, 500.0)

randomized_damage = (random.random() * 0.1 + 0.9) * raw_damage

Relevant part bolded.

Looks like I was wrong.

There is some random fuzz on strikes before armor but it is still very tiny (90-100% damage as opposed to 50-100%).

 

[Pode]

Well, that's more than a bit different from the baseline M&B code snippets I was working from. Guess there was a full combat system overhaul for Warband, not just parameter tweaking, huh? Watch this space for further revisions

 

[Pode]

Something along the lines of

if hold_time >= 1.1
	hold_bonus = 1.2
elif hold_time >= 0.6:
	hold_bonus = (1.1 - hold_time) * 0.6 + 1.2
elif hold_time >= 0.5:
	hold_bonus = 1.5
else:
	hold_bonus = hold_time + 1.0

raw_damage = weapon_damage * (clamp(hold_bonus, 1.0, 2.0) * 0.5 + 0.5)

This block means that every weapon, regardless of type, benefits from being held with left mouse down before releasing. (Even crossbows, WTF?) The sweet spot is 0.5-0.6 seconds, which gives a 25% boost to raw damage. Since it applies to all weapons, it's not relevant to a weapon comparison, but it indicates what's probably the single biggest improvement I could make to my playstyle and I suspect I'm not alone. More later.