[WBL] MOSS Anti-cheat

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Shemaforash said:
Also people need to step up if they want to offer taking care of reviewing as so far AE players have proposed the initial idea and were willing to go through with it. Nobody else has stepped up yet.
These players weren't planning on participating in the tournament either but simply wanted to be a separate team to review and catch cheaters.
I could help out.
 
Shemaforash said:
Agree, but thought I'd point out Oliveran said he doesn't want to use MOSS for some reason.
Also people need to step up if they want to offer taking care of reviewing as so far AE players have proposed the initial idea and were willing to go through with it. Nobody else has stepped up yet.
These players weren't planning on participating in the tournament either but simply wanted to be a separate team to review and catch cheaters.

Exactly. I've already said I'm happy to not be involved if certain salty persons aren't comfortable having me review their logs but people seem happier presenting ideas without solutions than actually doing the work.

Generally good ideas from pepper tho
 
Peppers choice of reviewers is pretty perfect and his suggestions surely would improve a few aspects. But the problem I have with the whole thing is not even that I don't trust the people. I definitely trust Aeronwen, I'm pretty sure Deacon doesn't plan to sell the data and yes, I even trust OGL.
But when I look at the ESL site I notice a higher level of professionality. When you check their site and click on 'privacy policy' you get a very looong text (sadly, it's only in German) with lots of information about what's getting done with the data. There's a contact, real persons, they're even registered at some official register court and customers (players) can check if the company and those persons really exist. Actually it's not much different on TW forum. When you register a new account you get the info that your IP address is getting recorded etc. And somewhere you have to click on 'I accept the terms of the agreement'. And atm the situation here in Warband tournaments is a totally different one. I'm not even sure if the way it's planned to get done is actually legal. There are laws about data protection which are very strict (but I really don't know in which way it applies in this case, I'm not lawyer). Just as example in the ESL privacy policy people also get informed that those who are below 18 have to get the permission of their parents. And now in this tournament it gets demanded that all players have to send their private data to one they only know from a forum or only know from steam or some Warband server, without any additional information, without any guarantee of protection, and without any personal agreement. You can ask anywhere, ask a lawyer, ask some data expert, ask the police if you like.. they all will say "Are you crazy? Never! Do not send your private data to people in the internet you don't know!". And meanwhile it already happens that people who refuse to do what would be crazy to do are getting called cheater. And whoever will review this data, if I know and trust the people or not doesn't even make a difference. As long the organisation of Warband tournaments isn't on a professional level comparable to ESL there's no way I'd ever send my data to anyone. It's a basic principle.
 
just tell the community which admin will be reviewing which .zip file if ure concerned about accountability

Shemaforash said:
Nobody else has stepped up yet.

i volunteered to help but i doubt many ppl want me to look at their files lol
 
OliESC said:
But when I look at the ESL site I notice a higher level of professionality. When you check their site and click on 'privacy policy' you get a very looong text (sadly, it's only in German) with lots of information about what's getting done with the data.

As I've already pointed out the ESL data we're asking for his literally posted publicly, unedited and unaudited, for anyone to see. Most of their privacy policy refers to other personal data collected such as username, emails, and passwords etc, or their separate ESL anti-cheat.

Nothing indicates what we're asking for is illegal. As I said previously, if you really want my name and address put to it, that is fine.
 
OurGloriousLeader said:
Exactly. I've already said I'm happy to not be involved if certain salty persons aren't comfortable having me review their logs but people seem happier presenting ideas without solutions than actually doing the work.

Generally good ideas from pepper tho
No work needs to be done, I think none of this is actually necessary and it's just an inconvenience. However, if MOSS is actually going to be used in this tournament I don't want known trolls reviewing my data.
 
๖Kern said:
You are not asked to give us personal information about you, there's a chance of an unlucky screenshot of your facebook/something else happening, that's all.
The info on the MOSS website tells me pretty much the opposite. I'm not worried about screenshots at all, and you can get as many desktop screenshots from me as you like.  Atm people demand things they don't really understand themselves. We all are no experts and such comments just show the problem.
 
V1ncent said:
OurGloriousLeader said:
Exactly. I've already said I'm happy to not be involved if certain salty persons aren't comfortable having me review their logs but people seem happier presenting ideas without solutions than actually doing the work.

Generally good ideas from pepper tho
No work needs to be done, I think none of this is actually necessary and it's just an inconvenience. However, if MOSS is actually going to be used in this tournament I don't want known trolls reviewing my data.


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I support any and every way of catching cheaters of any kind as i personally hate cheating.

If i understod correctly how MOSS works is basically gathering video/picture data from your monitor/desktop.

Now let me tell you something, there are many ways cheaters can still cheat and they wont be caught by this as there are multi ways of hiding background processes and programs which are running at that very moment.

Correct me if im mistaken but still good luck with this.
 
They are easily modifed and renamed by cheaters and by those who craft them in first place but still i hope it will flush out atleast most of the cheaters from scene.
 
Player Anubis

We've discussed Anubis' case and even with the addition of MOSS, we still do not think that Anubis should be allowed to play, therefore, he stays suspended for this tournament.

Some more information would be appreciated on this. What is the point of the software if you keep people banned based on ur "suspicions"?
 
Pepper said:
Sup fam

No idea if these suggestions have been said already and maybe they're :poop:, but if MOSS would be implemented I'd suggest the following:

1. Don't have 3/4 of the people reviewing the info in the same team/clan/friendship group. I've obviously nothing against AE and they step up a lot for tournaments etc, but I don't think when handling stuff like this you should have all of them being good friends. I'm sure they wouldn't share personal info etc but the possibility is there when they're such a tight nit group. Of course this goes for anyone in a similar position.

2. The people reviewing it don't have the be the guys who always host tournaments. I understand these are the people who are usually those who step up and know a lot about warband, but for instance while I love OGL I don't think he's a good choice when half the community don't like him much (lmao) as regardless of his asset it doesn't inspire trust. I think you'll need a selection of people from around the community who are trusted not to gossip, well-liked and from seperate areas. I don't really know how you'd go about this, but people such as Rome, ChatNoir, Volcom, Oliveran or Erminas would be -my- picks, people who have done things in the community but are also not in the same friendship circle as well as being trusted enough. Of course, those would be my options but it's likely different for others, so I don't know how you'd go about it and I've no idea who's even interested in doing it including the people I mentioned.

3. Anyway, to me, this is my most important suggestion
To protect information I'd suggest assigning teams to the individuals reviewing the screenshots. So if you have 4 reviewers in a tournament of 16 they take 4 teams each, so if a screenshot was leaked we'd know who it was.
To protect against bias I think maybe having someone at the top of the reviewers, such as Aeronwen, to look through all of them and/or not releasing the information on who is assigned to what teams (with the possibility of them switching every so often).

I get that some of this seems a bit 'over the top' for a small community, but when dealing with personal information it's probably best to make it as secure as possible, regardless of how sensitive it is. I think having more of stuff like this in place would inspire more confidence in MOSS for those who are doubtful.

anyway I don't pretend to have answers and it might be **** but there's my input, sry for bad english I know im from england but yeah

Good post :smile:

I am not terribly keen on MOSS as it is, it seems to collect more info than is needed and some info that I think should not be collected.

1. Diversity is always good. You might consider though that those who are more likely to be trustworthy are maybe more likely to be friends as they have the same values.  I would consider individuals on their merits rather than who they are friends with.

2. I think the group should be kept as small as possible, though that also increases possible workload for those doing it.  I expect that the optimum number will become clear.  If MOSS is used for upcoming tournaments it may be that reviewers will need a break and so other people will be needed but the actual review group for any tournament remains small. Most of the names you mentioned sound good to me.  I was wondering about the idea of giving players a veto on one (or more) reviewers so if they felt they could not trust one of the pool of reviewers they can be sure that person will not be looking at their info.

3. I have not yet heard a method of gathering the files but it may get overcomplicated if we try to prevent reviewers from seeing those they are not assigned to.  If any one reviewer is ill or otherwise busy someone else will need to look at the screens. I would also expect that if a reviewer found a screen they thought showed a possible rule break they would need to share it and discuss it with other reviewers, in fact I think that is necessary for consistency and improving teh process.  From reviewing logs for past tourneys I can tell you that we will probably need to take a share of the reviewing as the files come in rather than being assigned teams.  It is quite time  consuming and any reviewer may not have teh time when a particular teams screens become available.
- just a note that it is in the interests of those who want to cheat to try and discredit any attempt like this. I would be careful about assigning blame based on simpilistic, and easy to subvert, systems.


I absolutely agree that if we do anything like this we must take dealing with the info very seriously and respect the privacy of all players.


 
It's a punishment for cheating, not a pre-caution to avoid cheating. It's not Kern's fault Anubis used cheats, stop having a go at him. Play fair or don't play at all, can't even agree to the concept of a single anti-cheat, so probably more people out there with epic aiming that don't deserve it.  :meh:
 
Aeronwen said:
Good post :smile:

I am not terribly keen on MOSS as it is, it seems to collect more info than is needed and some info that I think should not be collected.

1. Diversity is always good. You might consider though that those who are more likely to be trustworthy are maybe more likely to be friends as they have the same values.  I would consider individuals on their merits rather than who they are friends with.

2. I think the group should be kept as small as possible, though that also increases possible workload for those doing it.  I expect that the optimum number will become clear.  If MOSS is used for upcoming tournaments it may be that reviewers will need a break and so other people will be needed but the actual review group for any tournament remains small. Most of the names you mentioned sound good to me.  I was wondering about the idea of giving players a veto on one (or more) reviewers so if they felt they could not trust one of the pool of reviewers they can be sure that person will not be looking at their info.

3. I have not yet heard a method of gathering the files but it may get overcomplicated if we try to prevent reviewers from seeing those they are not assigned to.  If any one reviewer is ill or otherwise busy someone else will need to look at the screens. I would also expect that if a reviewer found a screen they thought showed a possible rule break they would need to share it and discuss it with other reviewers, in fact I think that is necessary for consistency and improving teh process.  From reviewing logs for past tourneys I can tell you that we will probably need to take a share of the reviewing as the files come in rather than being assigned teams.  It is quite time  consuming and any reviewer may not have teh time when a particular teams screens become available.
- just a note that it is in the interests of those who want to cheat to try and discredit any attempt like this. I would be careful about assigning blame based on simpilistic, and easy to subvert, systems.


I absolutely agree that if we do anything like this we must take dealing with the info very seriously and respect the privacy of all players.

1. Yeah I completely understand that, but I'd like to think we have enough trustworthy people scattered around for it not to be an issue to get some diversity in there.

2. Nice points and the veto idea could work, might be a bit messy to keep on track of though.

3. The whole leaking screenshots thing was more for accidental desktop/browser etc screens. It should be fine to share warband specific screenshots between reviewers I'd say, but if something personal was released then it's easier to see where it originated I guess? Definitely not a fool proof plan, but I believe something like this would be better with than without it. Maybe a 'senior reviewer' or whatever could distribute the files with only them having immidiate access? It's all ideas anyway.

Thanks for the reply :smile:
 
Device said:
Let Anubis prove his innocence by using MOSS. If it works just like how you are saying it does then there is no big deal letting the man play is there?
For all we know he could be innocent and banning him is a bit harsh.

There is no proving of the innocence. If he truly used the cheats, he can just turn them off for now. If we let him play in this tournament, he will be labelled innocent in every other. We believe he cheated. MOSS is a measurement against cheating but it doesn’t change the fact that he actually cheated.
 
๖Kern said:
Device said:
Let Anubis prove his innocence by using MOSS. If it works just like how you are saying it does then there is no big deal letting the man play is there?
For all we know he could be innocent and banning him is a bit harsh.

There is no proving of the innocence. If he truly used the cheats, he can just turn them off for now. If we let him play in this tournament, he will be labelled innocent in every other. We believe he cheated. MOSS is a measurement against cheating but it doesn’t change the fact that he actually cheated.

You still don't realize that the key word here is "We believe he cheated".

It is what you believe. It is not 100% confirmed information and you can't know for sure whether he did or not. You got anti-cheat now so you can be sure that people suspected will not use anything (even if they did). You got any doubts? Request MOSS file and check it. I honestly do not see a reasoning behind this.

Just to point out - I am not protecting anyone, but I am just trying to understand why the **** would Maximou have an opportunity to play and Anubis not.
 
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