[WBL] MOSS Anti-cheat

Imagination

I<3Dingleberries
Master Knight
WBM&BWF&SNW
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Player Anubis

We've discussed Anubis' case and even with the addition of MOSS, we still do not think that Anubis should be allowed to play, therefore, he stays suspended for this tournament.
Some more information would be appreciated on this. What is the point of the software if you keep people banned based on ur "suspicions"?
 

Device

Sergeant at Arms
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Let Anubis prove his innocence by using MOSS. If it works just like how you are saying it does then there is no big deal letting the man play is there?
For all we know he could be innocent and banning him is a bit harsh.
 

Aeronwen

Marquis
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Pepper said:
Sup fam

No idea if these suggestions have been said already and maybe they're :poop:, but if MOSS would be implemented I'd suggest the following:

1. Don't have 3/4 of the people reviewing the info in the same team/clan/friendship group. I've obviously nothing against AE and they step up a lot for tournaments etc, but I don't think when handling stuff like this you should have all of them being good friends. I'm sure they wouldn't share personal info etc but the possibility is there when they're such a tight nit group. Of course this goes for anyone in a similar position.

2. The people reviewing it don't have the be the guys who always host tournaments. I understand these are the people who are usually those who step up and know a lot about warband, but for instance while I love OGL I don't think he's a good choice when half the community don't like him much (lmao) as regardless of his asset it doesn't inspire trust. I think you'll need a selection of people from around the community who are trusted not to gossip, well-liked and from seperate areas. I don't really know how you'd go about this, but people such as Rome, ChatNoir, Volcom, Oliveran or Erminas would be -my- picks, people who have done things in the community but are also not in the same friendship circle as well as being trusted enough. Of course, those would be my options but it's likely different for others, so I don't know how you'd go about it and I've no idea who's even interested in doing it including the people I mentioned.

3. Anyway, to me, this is my most important suggestion
To protect information I'd suggest assigning teams to the individuals reviewing the screenshots. So if you have 4 reviewers in a tournament of 16 they take 4 teams each, so if a screenshot was leaked we'd know who it was.
To protect against bias I think maybe having someone at the top of the reviewers, such as Aeronwen, to look through all of them and/or not releasing the information on who is assigned to what teams (with the possibility of them switching every so often).

I get that some of this seems a bit 'over the top' for a small community, but when dealing with personal information it's probably best to make it as secure as possible, regardless of how sensitive it is. I think having more of stuff like this in place would inspire more confidence in MOSS for those who are doubtful.

anyway I don't pretend to have answers and it might be **** but there's my input, sry for bad english I know im from england but yeah
Good post :smile:

I am not terribly keen on MOSS as it is, it seems to collect more info than is needed and some info that I think should not be collected.

1. Diversity is always good. You might consider though that those who are more likely to be trustworthy are maybe more likely to be friends as they have the same values.  I would consider individuals on their merits rather than who they are friends with.

2. I think the group should be kept as small as possible, though that also increases possible workload for those doing it.  I expect that the optimum number will become clear.  If MOSS is used for upcoming tournaments it may be that reviewers will need a break and so other people will be needed but the actual review group for any tournament remains small. Most of the names you mentioned sound good to me.  I was wondering about the idea of giving players a veto on one (or more) reviewers so if they felt they could not trust one of the pool of reviewers they can be sure that person will not be looking at their info.

3. I have not yet heard a method of gathering the files but it may get overcomplicated if we try to prevent reviewers from seeing those they are not assigned to.  If any one reviewer is ill or otherwise busy someone else will need to look at the screens. I would also expect that if a reviewer found a screen they thought showed a possible rule break they would need to share it and discuss it with other reviewers, in fact I think that is necessary for consistency and improving teh process.  From reviewing logs for past tourneys I can tell you that we will probably need to take a share of the reviewing as the files come in rather than being assigned teams.  It is quite time  consuming and any reviewer may not have teh time when a particular teams screens become available.
- just a note that it is in the interests of those who want to cheat to try and discredit any attempt like this. I would be careful about assigning blame based on simpilistic, and easy to subvert, systems.


I absolutely agree that if we do anything like this we must take dealing with the info very seriously and respect the privacy of all players.


 

Surkan

Baron
WBNW
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It's a punishment for cheating, not a pre-caution to avoid cheating. It's not Kern's fault Anubis used cheats, stop having a go at him. Play fair or don't play at all, can't even agree to the concept of a single anti-cheat, so probably more people out there with epic aiming that don't deserve it.  :meh:
 

PepperKP

Baron
M&BWF&SWBNWVC
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Aeronwen said:
Good post :smile:

I am not terribly keen on MOSS as it is, it seems to collect more info than is needed and some info that I think should not be collected.

1. Diversity is always good. You might consider though that those who are more likely to be trustworthy are maybe more likely to be friends as they have the same values.  I would consider individuals on their merits rather than who they are friends with.

2. I think the group should be kept as small as possible, though that also increases possible workload for those doing it.  I expect that the optimum number will become clear.  If MOSS is used for upcoming tournaments it may be that reviewers will need a break and so other people will be needed but the actual review group for any tournament remains small. Most of the names you mentioned sound good to me.  I was wondering about the idea of giving players a veto on one (or more) reviewers so if they felt they could not trust one of the pool of reviewers they can be sure that person will not be looking at their info.

3. I have not yet heard a method of gathering the files but it may get overcomplicated if we try to prevent reviewers from seeing those they are not assigned to.  If any one reviewer is ill or otherwise busy someone else will need to look at the screens. I would also expect that if a reviewer found a screen they thought showed a possible rule break they would need to share it and discuss it with other reviewers, in fact I think that is necessary for consistency and improving teh process.  From reviewing logs for past tourneys I can tell you that we will probably need to take a share of the reviewing as the files come in rather than being assigned teams.  It is quite time  consuming and any reviewer may not have teh time when a particular teams screens become available.
- just a note that it is in the interests of those who want to cheat to try and discredit any attempt like this. I would be careful about assigning blame based on simpilistic, and easy to subvert, systems.


I absolutely agree that if we do anything like this we must take dealing with the info very seriously and respect the privacy of all players.
1. Yeah I completely understand that, but I'd like to think we have enough trustworthy people scattered around for it not to be an issue to get some diversity in there.

2. Nice points and the veto idea could work, might be a bit messy to keep on track of though.

3. The whole leaking screenshots thing was more for accidental desktop/browser etc screens. It should be fine to share warband specific screenshots between reviewers I'd say, but if something personal was released then it's easier to see where it originated I guess? Definitely not a fool proof plan, but I believe something like this would be better with than without it. Maybe a 'senior reviewer' or whatever could distribute the files with only them having immidiate access? It's all ideas anyway.

Thanks for the reply :smile:
 

๖Kern

Grandmaster Knight
WBNW
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Device said:
Let Anubis prove his innocence by using MOSS. If it works just like how you are saying it does then there is no big deal letting the man play is there?
For all we know he could be innocent and banning him is a bit harsh.
There is no proving of the innocence. If he truly used the cheats, he can just turn them off for now. If we let him play in this tournament, he will be labelled innocent in every other. We believe he cheated. MOSS is a measurement against cheating but it doesn’t change the fact that he actually cheated.
 

Imagination

I<3Dingleberries
Master Knight
WBM&BWF&SNW
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๖Kern said:
Device said:
Let Anubis prove his innocence by using MOSS. If it works just like how you are saying it does then there is no big deal letting the man play is there?
For all we know he could be innocent and banning him is a bit harsh.
There is no proving of the innocence. If he truly used the cheats, he can just turn them off for now. If we let him play in this tournament, he will be labelled innocent in every other. We believe he cheated. MOSS is a measurement against cheating but it doesn’t change the fact that he actually cheated.
You still don't realize that the key word here is "We believe he cheated".

It is what you believe. It is not 100% confirmed information and you can't know for sure whether he did or not. You got anti-cheat now so you can be sure that people suspected will not use anything (even if they did). You got any doubts? Request MOSS file and check it. I honestly do not see a reasoning behind this.

Just to point out - I am not protecting anyone, but I am just trying to understand why the **** would Maximou have an opportunity to play and Anubis not.
 

Surkan

Baron
WBNW
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? Rey said:
๖Kern said:
Device said:
Let Anubis prove his innocence by using MOSS. If it works just like how you are saying it does then there is no big deal letting the man play is there?
For all we know he could be innocent and banning him is a bit harsh.
There is no proving of the innocence. If he truly used the cheats, he can just turn them off for now. If we let him play in this tournament, he will be labelled innocent in every other. We believe he cheated. MOSS is a measurement against cheating but it doesn’t change the fact that he actually cheated.
You still don't realize that the key word here is "We believe he cheated".

It is what you believe. It is not 100% confirmed information and you can't know for sure whether he did or not. You got anti-cheat now so you can be sure that people suspected will not use anything (even if they did). You got any doubts? Request MOSS file and check it. I honestly do not see a reasoning behind this.

Just to point out - I am not protecting anyone, but I am just trying to understand why the **** would Maximou have an opportunity to play and Anubis not.
Because Maximou's never shown illegitimate gameplay, while Anubis has. Maximou's 'cheating' never went further than a post on a certain forum, which was called out rather quickly. Anubis has RECENTLY used cheats to boost his performance and it's been proven, whether you want to believe that verdict or not isn't an issue Kern should have to argue. There's a group of players who'll rush to defend Anubis and go 'but he never cheated!!! you can't prove it!!!', but any other will accept that he used software that improved his aiming.

Anubis is being banned as a punishment for cheating, Maximou is being forced to use moss based on justified suspicions of cheating.
 

Guaccmoleboy

On probation
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cheater A admits to downloading hacks. cheater B looks pretty suspicious but has provided recording etc for evidence. cheater B is banned 

what am i missing here lol? didnt max become a t1 archer in a very short period of time? and where was it proven/confirmed that anubis cheated
 

Surkan

Baron
WBNW
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He was banned from the mercenaries module after careful consideration by their administrators. A lot of people have seen the videos/GIFs of Anubis's epic aiming by now and there's no denying he cheated.
 

๖Kern

Grandmaster Knight
WBNW
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Guaccmoleboy said:
cheater A admits to downloading hacks. cheater B looks pretty suspicious but has provided recording etc for evidence. cheater B is banned 

what am i missing here lol? didnt max become a t1 archer in a very short period of time? and where was it proven/confirmed that anubis cheated
Has provided a recording and..? The recording was made days after he was accused.

? Rey said:
You still don't realize that the key word here is "We believe he cheated".

It is what you believe. It is not 100% confirmed information and you can't know for sure whether he did or not. You got anti-cheat now so you can be sure that people suspected will not use anything (even if they did). You got any doubts? Request MOSS file and check it. I honestly do not see a reasoning behind this.

Just to point out - I am not protecting anyone, but I am just trying to understand why the **** would Maximou have an opportunity to play and Anubis not.
I do realize it just enough. Yet, Alecks' reasoning and comparison were enough for us to decide this way. Anubis did not try a single thing to defend himself, you are not his attorneys to do that for him, if he has something to say, he has the right to do so. Since it seems like he has no interest in defending himself and the evidence provided was more than enough for us, he is banned.

Maximou has admitted that he downloaded an autoblock when DarkLight's tourney was still running, but no one has ever recorded a video of him using aimbot nor posted anything convincing about his case.
 

Fietta

buıʇʇǝs uoıʇɔǝɹıp ʞɔɐʇʇɐ
Subforum Moderator
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
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With the issues of moss, I don't think making people use it right now regardless if it's two people is the right thing to do. You should make maximou record every match.
 

EX ANUBIS

Knight
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๖Kern said:
Guaccmoleboy said:
cheater A admits to downloading hacks. cheater B looks pretty suspicious but has provided recording etc for evidence. cheater B is banned 

what am i missing here lol? didnt max become a t1 archer in a very short period of time? and where was it proven/confirmed that anubis cheated
Has provided a recording and..? The recording was made days after he was accused.

? Rey said:
You still don't realize that the key word here is "We believe he cheated".

It is what you believe. It is not 100% confirmed information and you can't know for sure whether he did or not. You got anti-cheat now so you can be sure that people suspected will not use anything (even if they did). You got any doubts? Request MOSS file and check it. I honestly do not see a reasoning behind this.

Just to point out - I am not protecting anyone, but I am just trying to understand why the **** would Maximou have an opportunity to play and Anubis not.
I do realize it just enough. Yet, Alecks' reasoning and comparison were enough for us to decide this way. Anubis did not try a single thing to defend himself, you are not his attorneys to do that for him, if he has something to say, he has the right to do so. Since it seems like he has no interest in defending himself and the evidence provided was more than enough for us, he is banned.

Maximou has admitted that he downloaded an autoblock when DarkLight's tourney was still running, but no one has ever recorded a video of him using aimbot nor posted anything convincing about his case.
Well, it's time so say something. Why do u think that i never tried to protect myself? Why would i do it always? Yes,there my bad also, Words that i said to Alecks were a terrible, it's understandable, cause i was angry. After this he starts to ignore me, well, i deserve this.  I tried to communicate with other admins and get ignored by them too.
http://prntscr.com/jcjvfn
http://prntscr.com/jch0ez
http://prntscr.com/jch0kq
If you're interesting i could explain all of gifs.Sometimes my mouse laggs(showed in one of gifs,u could see also in my videos). Don't think that a video mean something.Also i have to say something about my failed prooves after "accused of cheating". As u know i play with really low quality even with these settings my laptop makes really hot after 1 hour of playing. Even without
recording FPS drops sometimes from 150 to 90 with +50 players on server. With using record program it comes from 130 to 70 with high number players on server.I did two first video's in same day when Alecks asked me for that,tbh i thought it was a joke.Also Alecks didn't said what he wants from me to watch,something like "just play,we want to watch your playstyle" nothing else.I didn't know that it was really seriuos and didn't care about side i play when i'm recording(i mean red or green side, it's important if you want to kill more people). And stop talking about thing that i was accused in cheating in Wfas,that's not true. i have played in wfas about 7k hours in 7 years, and one important thing in wfas it's shooting. I have replicated anything you show as evidince of me cheating. What you call "twitching" that's my playstyle,what you call "flickshots" that's my playstyle. And i will never stop do headshots, don't even try to chill yourself with words like "he caught!! he will play  much worse after!!",cause i never use any type of cheats in M&B. You don't even want me to play with Anti-Cheat? What's his point then? I played only two matches after ban and ye i played well. I'm recording everytime i play archer,i play with laggs and even with laggs i do headshots,flickshots and etc. Btw i don't really understand what you expect from people who you call "cheaters"? Human reaction is understandable, so ye i'm sorry about words that i said earlier. Do whatever you want.
 

Namakan

Sergeant Knight at Arms
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
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3
Sorry, but wasn't there a noticeable drop in your performance when you were forced to record?
 

Guaccmoleboy

On probation
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0
EX ANUBIS said:
Well, it's time so say something. Why do u think that i never tried to protect myself? Why would i do it always? Yes,there my bad also, Words that i said to Alecks were a terrible, it's understandable, cause i was angry. After this he starts to ignore me, well, i deserve this.  I tried to communicate with other admins and get ignored by them too.
http://prntscr.com/jcjvfn
http://prntscr.com/jch0ez
http://prntscr.com/jch0kq
If you're interesting i could explain all of gifs.Sometimes my mouse laggs(showed in one of gifs,u could see also in my videos). Don't think that a video mean something.Also i have to say something about my failed prooves after "accused of cheating". As u know i play with really low quality even with these settings my laptop makes really hot after 1 hour of playing. Even without
recording FPS drops sometimes from 150 to 90 with +50 players on server. With using record program it comes from 130 to 70 with high number players on server.I did two first video's in same day when Alecks asked me for that,tbh i thought it was a joke.Also Alecks didn't said what he wants from me to watch,something like "just play,we want to watch your playstyle" nothing else.I didn't know that it was really seriuos and didn't care about side i play when i'm recording(i mean red or green side, it's important if you want to kill more people). And stop talking about thing that i was accused in cheating in Wfas,that's not true. i have played in wfas about 7k hours in 7 years, and one important thing in wfas it's shooting. I have replicated anything you show as evidince of me cheating. What you call "twitching" that's my playstyle,what you call "flickshots" that's my playstyle. And i will never stop do headshots, don't even try to chill yourself with words like "he caught!! he will play  much worse after!!",cause i never use any type of cheats in M&B. You don't even want me to play with Anti-Cheat? What's his point then? I played only two matches after ban and ye i played well. I'm recording everytime i play archer,i play with laggs and even with laggs i do headshots,flickshots and etc. Btw i don't really understand what you expect from people who you call "cheaters"? Human reaction is understandable, so ye i'm sorry about words that i said earlier. Do whatever you want.
dont click his links they could be virus