B Medieval [WB] Warband: Total Realism, 1148 A.D. - (MAPPER needed)

[Outlawed]

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Here's the options for nomenclature. Civis can be used in lieu of militia, because being a citizen (and generally someone with a stock in the town - not a bum or a poor person) required military service.

Primi Civis = "First of the citizens"
Secundi Civis = "Second of the citizens"

Civis Minores = "Lesser/junior citizens"
Civis Majores = "Greater/senior citizens"

Civis Inferioris = "Lesser/junior citizens"
Civis Superioris = "Greater/older citizens"

Iunior Civis = "Junior/younger citizens"
Senior Civis = "Older/senior citizens" [had no idea senior was directly latin!]

I like Minores/Majores, although we might already be using that for the Miles. It's a nice, recognizable term that sounds more exciting than saying in english "veteran" or "younger/older". The other option would be Inferioris and Superioris. I don't like Primi/Secundi, because it implies an organizational structure that didn't exist (a stratified society into first, second, third, ect.). These'll be for tier 2 and 3, with 4 probably being some sort of "noble citizens" (magni/magnus/whatever civis), and tier 1 being 'non citizens' - ruffians and such.

I also read something interesting that claims that crossbowmen were more rare than I first thought in the mid 12th century. I'll have to check out a book when I return to university this coming week to try and determine how prevalent crossbows were - we might have to go back and make them something limited to the top two (or top 1) unit in the ranged tree.


I also think I need to return to the Sicilians and make sure they and the North Italians mimic the Iberians for being 'four tiered", since being shorter in tiers gives an unfair advantage of quicker access to armored (Gambeson and then mail) troops.

Outlawed I'm also just curious - do you happen to have a seamless mail pattern? I might ask for it as a tithe for my researching!  I'm always on the lookout for a good seamless mail pattern to get, since I love to do nice and simple mail armor textures. I'm kidding about the tithe, I do this pro bono (teehee, pro boner), but if you do have a seamless mail pattern I'd love to get it!

Yeah, I like Minores/Majores, but maybe using Senior fits it better? I don't mind both to be honest.
Hmm. About the crossbows, I do know they were around in Italy, especially in the North in good numbers seeing the availability of mercenaries.
They were quite rare in the east even for Crusader states though.

Seamless maille you say?
PM Kamikazuh, our main texture man, he's bound to have something or even make you one haha XD

 

[Outlawed]

Yeah I know, double post, but it's important to get the thread at people's 'show new replies' since my last reply.

Anyway, this is about banners also.

I've completed the Antioch banner, you can check it at the front page.

I've also been putting off doing the Byzantine Banner. Up until the mid 13th century, the Byzantine royal families didn't really have any sort of Herald or mark. We do hear of eagles being represented in courts and the such, but nothing substantial say to the Kommenus line of rulers. What we do have however, is a repeating symbol that makes its way across coinage from before, during and even after our period.

The shape is clearly the Orthodox cross. What is interesting to note is that during Manuel I Kommenus's rule, we see a new, second staff appear on coinage.

隐藏: Manuel and his father John II with the cross

Now seeing that there is no real heraldry per se, it would be realistic to just include the cross. But that's not very exciting (with Antioch having a plain cross, less plain crosses and more individual designs seems like a good design choice, no?)

So, I searched for coinage for Father and Son to see any differences in anything they hold/show on their coins. I found something that might be very familiar with some of you,

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The object/staff that Manuel holds in his right arm was sort if familiar to me, so I searched for more coins and came about this:

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It looks very similar to the old banners of the empire from around 300-400 A.D.
But upon further inspection, its not really that similar. While there is some sort of cross crossing a cross (no pun intended) it appears that there are two extra rectangular shapes on either side of the object. We also notice that there is some sort of extension towards the bottom of the coin where the whole thing appears to be on some sort of stand. Its very clear that the bottom part of the shape is disproportionate to the upper part.

It basically would look something like this done crudely:

隐藏: Crude Shape

I need input (historical) on how sane would it be to actually make this the banner. Are there any better claims other than the eagle at the courts? If not, I don't see a problem with coming up with our own thing based on a Manuel coin.

 

[kuauik]

i dont wan to sound like a douche but the Antioch and Sicily banners are wrong,Sicily banner must be white and Antioch banner should be the arms of Raymond de Poitiers(plain red banner)please dont use the TW banner,Tripoli is reported to have red backround and yellow plain cross ,or you can go with the arms of Raymond II,thats the same arms as Toulouse hope this helped

 

[Jock]

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Here's the options for nomenclature. Civis can be used in lieu of militia, because being a citizen (and generally someone with a stock in the town - not a bum or a poor person) required military service.

Primi Civis = "First of the citizens"
Secundi Civis = "Second of the citizens"

Civis Minores = "Lesser/junior citizens"
Civis Majores = "Greater/senior citizens"

Civis Inferioris = "Lesser/junior citizens"
Civis Superioris = "Greater/older citizens"

Iunior Civis = "Junior/younger citizens"
Senior Civis = "Older/senior citizens" [had no idea senior was directly latin!]


I also read something interesting that claims that crossbowmen were more rare than I first thought in the mid 12th century. I'll have to check out a book when I return to university this coming week to try and determine how prevalent crossbows were - we might have to go back and make them something limited to the top two (or top 1) unit in the ranged tree.


I also think I need to return to the Sicilians and make sure they and the North Italians mimic the Iberians for being 'four tiered", since being shorter in tiers gives an unfair advantage of quicker access to armored (Gambeson and then mail) troops.

Yeah, I like Minores/Majores, but maybe using Senior fits it better? I don't mind both to be honest.
Hmm. About the crossbows, I do know they were around in Italy, especially in the North in good numbers seeing the availability of mercenaries.
They were quite rare in the east even for Crusader states though.

I read about the crossbows too, they weren't used much before the Crusade era. The Crusaders used crossbows  against the Saracens though, quite often and the muslims adopted the crossbows and used them alot during the Crusades.

So yes, crossbows were used in Crusader states too.

P.S - I'm quite sure my information is correct, that's what I read in the library about the history of medieval weapons.

Edit - Is this the correct English banner of Henry II?

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[Outlawed]

i dont wan to sound like a douche but the Antioch and Sicily banners are wrong,Sicily banner must be white and Antioch banner,should be the arms of Raymond de Poitiers,or hypoteticaly white cross on red banner mixed with the arms of Poitiers,or white eight pointed star on black backround,please dont use the TW banner,Tripoli is reported to have red backround and yellow plain cross hope this helped

Okay.....

First of all, we don't yet have a Sicily banner... so I don't know how you're objecting something that isn't even in place.

Tripoli... I have a yellowish/white cross with 4 roundels around it on a red background.
It is Tripoli that was said to have an eight pointed star on their banner, NOT Antioch. Care to present sources so I can check your work?
Read the last couple of pages and you'll see clearly where I get my sources from.

For Antioch, Raymond was a regent. If he did use an eight pointed star, then when he had regency for the Kingdom of Jerusalem why didn't he just use that as his banner?

I don't get how my banners are anything like Total War banners especially seeing that the only resemblance is really Kingdom of Jerusalem, which TW had right.

 

[kuauik]

i dont wan to sound like a douche but the Antioch and Sicily banners are wrong,Sicily banner must be white and Antioch banner,should be the arms of Raymond de Poitiers,or hypoteticaly white cross on red banner mixed with the arms of Poitiers,or white eight pointed star on black backround,please dont use the TW banner,Tripoli is reported to have red backround and yellow plain cross hope this helped

Okay.....

First of all, we don't yet have a Sicily banner... so I don't know how you're objecting something that isn't even in place.

Tripoli... I have a yellowish/white cross with 4 roundels around it on a red background.
It is Tripoli that was said to have an eight pointed star on their banner, NOT Antioch. Care to present sources so I can check your work?
Read the last couple of pages and you'll see clearly where I get my sources from.

For Antioch, Raymond was a regent. If he did use an eight pointed star, then when he had regency for the Kingdom of Jerusalem why didn't he just use that as his banner?

I don't get how my banners are anything like Total War banners especially seeing that the only resemblance is really Kingdom of Jerusalem, which TW had right.

that eight pointed star is reported in some sources,but as i stated its HYPOTETICAL,first i mentioned the red banner,also i was confused with the spoilers on the first page ,my bad,it was the HRE banner,but anyway,the crusade satets dont use any stable heraldic symbols,just like in europe,so the arms are always same as the lords arms,only exception is Jerusalem

 

[Outlawed]

Lol. Antioch wouldn't change their city banners because a regent was in place.
Raymund will get his herald on the units, but the banner for the faction is a different story.

 

[kuauik]

Lol. Antioch wouldn't change their city banners because a regent was in place.
Raymund will get his herald on the units, but the banner for the faction is a different story.

lol you are acting like if you were one of the regents of Antioch,your sources are just like mine sources,so dont act like if you know better,ok iam done,no more from me

 

[Winterz]

It's pretty misterious on how was their banner...
But I do belive that at least the colors are the same then the coat of arms and the flag probably has something to do with the coat of arms design no? 

Also in town scenes are you gonna make it look like reality? With the historical buildings?!

About the crossbows, I do know they were around in Italy, especially in the North in good numbers seeing the availability of mercenaries.
They were quite rare in the east even for Crusader states though.

Actually the crusaders started using them alot by that time....Since after all it was a great/recent invention on weaponry and it was mainly used in Italy(including Papal States)...so there's no doubt the Crusaders sent by the Church would also share their weapons.

Keep up with the magical work. 

P.S. Need any castle/town pictures in (actual) portuguese territory? Actually any other portuguese research material? 

 

[Outlawed]

We will make iconic buildings for certain town centers.

 

[Jock]

About the crossbows, I do know they were around in Italy, especially in the North in good numbers seeing the availability of mercenaries.
They were quite rare in the east even for Crusader states though.

Actually the crusaders started using them alot by that time....Since after all it was a great/recent invention on weaponry and it was mainly used in Italy(including Papal States)...so there's no doubt the Crusaders sent by the Church would also share their weapons.

Keep up with the magical work. 

Yeey, I was right about the crossbows!

Edit - Will ranged weapons have crosshairs? In Vikingr they don't and it's a lot cooler and harder like that.

 

[Outlawed]

kuauik, seeing that you aren't officially part of the mod team, I wouldn't know where your resources are from. I'm not trying to sound better than you, but anyone can just come in and say something they think they know to be true.

I obviously am not a regent for Antioch, but they had different banners/flags for their cities than the coat of arms they wore in battle. A lord wouldn't easily change his coat of arms and Antioch who was ruled by the Bohemund guys wouldn't change their banner for a regent, who was there temporarily.

Don't take anything I say personally, because as you said, there is no right answer and you came out stating that mine was literally, 'wrong'.

 

[kuauik]

maybe i am wrong,but i though that the the Antioch was home of counts of Poitiers,they were princes of Antioch,but if you said that there was regent at that time,then i dont know,Tripoli was fief of counts of Tolouse starting with Raymond of Tolouse,so their banner should be like of Toulouse,but maybe you know better 
ps:the resources are result of countles hours of reading almost anything on interenet i could found,you know

 

[Outlawed]

maybe i am wrong,but i though that the the Antioch was home of counts of Poitiers,they were princes of Antioch,but if you said that there was regent at that time,then i dont know,Tripoli was fief of counts of Tolouse starting with Raymond of Tolouse,so their banner should be like of Toulouse,but maybe you know better 
ps:the resources are result of countles hours of reading almost anything on interenet i could found,you know

Antioch was being controlled by the Bohemund lineage. It was passed on from father to son, Raymund was a regent until Bohemund III I think became old enough.

 

[Outlawed]

Might be a little old for us, Thrak try searching for an Osprey book called: "Saracen Strongholds 1100-1500". The first 200 years of that book is gold.

EDIT:

I'm having trouble sorting information to update the 2nd post. I just realized...
We have a **** load of research all over the place haha
Sahran's work stands out as the definition of excellence. XD I'd be lost without your help man.

 

[Jock]

Might be a little old for us, Thrak try searching for an Osprey book called: "Saracen Strongholds 1100-1500". The first 200 years of that book is gold.

EDIT:

I'm having trouble sorting information to update the 2nd post. I just realized...
We have a **** load of research all over the place haha
Sahran's work stands out as the definition of excellence. XD I'd be lost without your help man.

I found a book called something like : "Medieval Castles and Forts around the world", would that help? I will try to check it next time I go to town.

 

[kuauik]

Sahran's work stands out as the definition of excellence. XD I'd be lost without your help man.

exactly

 

[Outlawed]

King, be sure to check your timelines when looking at books.

I've added the Mwahhidun to the first page and added the edited Fatimid troop trees as well, also re-polished the map for territory.

Sahran, I can't seem to find your Crusader post, I forget where it was?

Also, is the work on the Iberians done? (that post you made included 2 of them, you think I should put them all under one category?)

 

[Gothic Knight]

maybe i am wrong,but i though that the the Antioch was home of counts of Poitiers,they were princes of Antioch,but if you said that there was regent at that time,then i dont know,Tripoli was fief of counts of Tolouse starting with Raymond of Tolouse,so their banner should be like of Toulouse,but maybe you know better 
ps:the resources are result of countles hours of reading almost anything on interenet i could found,you know

Did you check info about the First Crusade?

 

[Al_Mansur]

Moorish Castle(768 A.D)

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http://www.google.com.tr/images?hl=tr&q=moorish%20castle&rlz=1R2ADSA_trTR395&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&biw=1419&bih=680

Thrak, it doesn't make any sense. What is "Moorish Castle (768 AD)" ?
The first is the castle of Sintra, Portugal, built firstly by the Moors in the 9-10th centuries. It was totally repaired in the 19th century.
The big keep on the third photo is from the castle of Gibraltar, and was built in the 14th century.
The fourth photo is Sintra again, and on your google link there are a lot of different Moorish castles of different periods. I don't know what is the building on the second photo, but it seems to be from the late 12th century.

Outlawed, there is also the Osprey book Saracen Strongholds 630-1050. It is perhaps more useful for us. By the way, I have both. Unfortunately, there is no Moorish fortress is these books, only Middle East ones.