B Medieval [WB] Warband: Total Realism, 1148 A.D. - (MAPPER needed)

[Sahran]

French does seem to be the dominant language of Outremer and the Normans, but would run into problems when it comes to Spain and Germany - where we could just apply the localized version of the title of Knight, but I'm still partial to Miles/Milites because Latin was still the dominant Lingua franca and assumed a role like Arabic would amongst Turks/Berbers/Andalusians/Arabs/Kurds & the term Miles/Milites was being used in the 11th and 12th century. And I suppose I've been using/thinking Miles/Milities so much it's kind of ingrained in my head.

We can always be a bit more flexible about it too, if need be. French Chevaliers, German Ritters, Spanish whatever, British proto-Cniht or lump the British in with the multi-national Sicilio-Normans and Outremers in using Latin. That way instead of a ****ton of troops being named Miles with varying words in front of it (Normanni, Francia, Germania, Hispania, Solidarius/Stipendiarii, Outremer, ect.) there'd be more variety, although I am still kind of inclined to using Latin with some French given their cultural dominance.

But I think a good compromise if you're of the indigenous tongue school and I'm of the latin school is to use Latin in "International" cases - Sicily, Outremer, mercenaries, and use the domestic tongue in cases of "Nation state" Factions like France, the Iberians, the Italians, the English (Maybe), the HRE.

 

[Outlawed]

I see what you are saying.
How about keeping Latin as the base, but using 'native' tongues to describe special units?

 

[Sahran]

I see what you are saying.
How about keeping Latin as the base, but using 'native' tongues to describe special units?

Works for me.  But I think I was being too anal with trying to decide on a single universal law for how we'd name units. Unless they are either common yet noteworthy enough to define themselves (As Mamluk or Miles does), all the unit needs is some sort of english title affixed to the end so the person knows what they are (horsemen, crossbowmen, archers, infantry, spearmen, ect.).

I liked using Latin for Sicily, Mercenaries, or Outremer because of the multi-ethnic nature of their armies (Even though the first and last were dominated by French speakers). Using Latin for a mercenary lets it remain ambigious as to the origin of the unit, so the Stipendiari Miles might be Burgundian, Flemish, French, Occitan, German, Hungarian, Italian, Spanish, English, ect. But when it comes to the nation state factions like France, Germany, England, Italian States or Spain, that's not necessary. And for many of them there's a rich selection of terms to use (Spain has them, for instance). Thinking about it further, I'd much more prefer to have French Chevaliers, German Ritters, Italian Vavassors and Outremer/Sicilian Milites than just "_________ Milites" across the board. Part of the reason I like the 12th century more than the 13th is the fact that you still had a fairly strong degree of regional variety in the armies and behavior. Everyone wasn't whitewashed into this common continental military organization yet, and having language differences reinforces that.


So what I would suggest is that we not worry about it for now, and we can come back to the topic once all the faction's rosters are squared away with. Otherwise, what I'd recommend is:

Primarily Native Tongue, using Latin to fill in the gaps: A knight might be called _____, but they might all refer to their sergeants as sergeants for instance.
French
Spanish
Germans
Italian States (if research pans out)
England (if research pans out and they used their own/french terms instead of latin)

Primarily Latin, with specific tongue here and there: Miles/Milites, Servients, but special units (Sicilian Muslims, Templars, ect.) would be based on French.
Sicily
Outremer
Mercenaries

 

[Outlawed]

Well, if what you're worrying about is ambiguity, then you shouldn't. I said earlier that we would release an 'ethnic' version and an English version. The player will also be able to access the trees in-game and I will create a documentation when we do release this thing so it should be clear, depending on preference.

Its also true about the languages. The 'mixed' places would have more varied tongues, but what they spoke probably was closer to several languages rather than one. Using Latin is fine though.

 

[elorian]

i got a good question i think: can a knight fight with an arrow in right arm?!

 

[Outlawed]

i got a good question i think: can a knight fight with an arrow in right arm?!

A Knight can fight with an arrow in their testicle.
So yes. They can. =p

Sahran, have you looked at any of the Osprey books on Outremer and the Templar and Hospitaller orders? There is also another one for The Knights of Jerusalem, but it focuses on Hospitallers as well. They are all excellent books, and use the Osprey books as my main reference because they are very useful for our sort of research.

Also I'm assuming you read The Normans book as well for Sicily and all?

If you need them, let me know and I'll send them to you.

 

[Magnum]

its sounds better as their own term like the cavaliers and such... and spanish is caballero lol

 

[Sahran]

Sahran, have you looked at any of the Osprey books on Outremer and the Templar and Hospitaller orders? There is also another one for The Knights of Jerusalem, but it focuses on Hospitallers as well. They are all excellent books, and use the Osprey books as my main reference because they are very useful for our sort of research.

Also I'm assuming you read The Normans book as well for Sicily and all?

Yeah I've got them, I appreciate the offer though. That was where I learned hospitallers didn't differ in terminology between brother knight and brother sergeant at this point, but the Templars did.

 

[Al_Mansur]

I'd go for option 2, but in French.
So,
Chevalier Senior/Principal
Chevalier Junior

Mainly because French seems to be the language of Outremer as far as I'm concerned =p
Also, I can't remember which game it was, but when I clicked on the Knight, the unit would say Senior! Or it might have been MTWII Crusades when I click on a general... I can't remember =p

I can help as I'm french. Actually the word is "seigneur" 

 

[Bloodbane]

Horse kicking?! Wow I've never even thought of that! Along with the bunch of other tweaks that you're gonna add! The part I'm more interested in more than anything else is the king assasination feature... wonder what'll happen then? Will his kingdom just crumble into ruin or will his son or another powerful lord take over? If it's the latter then we'd just have to assassinate him too...

Anyway, good luck with the mod! Can't wait til it comes out!

 

[NordArcher]

I'd go for option 2, but in French.
So,
Chevalier Senior/Principal
Chevalier Junior

Mainly because French seems to be the language of Outremer as far as I'm concerned =p
Also, I can't remember which game it was, but when I clicked on the Knight, the unit would say Senior! Or it might have been MTWII Crusades when I click on a general... I can't remember =p

I can help as I'm french. Actually the word is "seigneur" 

A seigneur is a lord, it's not exclusive to knights or generals.

 

[Outlawed]

Horse kicking?! Wow I've never even thought of that! Along with the bunch of other tweaks that you're gonna add! The part I'm more interested in more than anything else is the king assasination feature... wonder what'll happen then? Will his kingdom just crumble into ruin or will his son or another powerful lord take over? If it's the latter then we'd just have to assassinate him too...

Anyway, good luck with the mod! Can't wait til it comes out!

You assassinate the King, then the lord with the best relation takes over.
I want to say that I want to have a family system where you could have kids, but its difficult based on the time flow of Warband. Its day to day, so it will take like 16 years to have a son become an heir. I doubt anyone has 16 years on their game.

I might, and when I say 'might' here it depends on how much coding I learn, add an adoption feature or an heir feature which will either be voted on or decide by the player (or the NPC leader based on things like army size, fiefs and maybe honor rating)

All this is subject to change, so don't mark me down for it =p

 

[Nodscouter]

You could have kings with grown sons being the most prestigious lord in the faction so that the kings son will take over.

 

[Mandible]

I wonder if it would be feasible to have a "discover your long-lost heir" quest of some sort... That would get around the whole issue with waiting around for sixteen years.

 

[Outlawed]

I wonder if it would be feasible to have a "discover your long-lost heir" quest of some sort... That would get around the whole issue with waiting around for sixteen years.

That sounds feasible, but why would the player want to have an heir?
Unless Perma death for player is implemented and then you can play with the Heir, but I really don't think I can come close to such features for first release at least.

 

[Sahran]

Returning to the back and forth of the nomenclature discussion we had earlier, Outlawed.  An idea that came to mind is to either separate the knightly class from the regular non knightly class (like we have Mamluks and Freeborn cavalrymen separate in tech trees), or to allow a stretched out culmination in quality. There'd be regional variations since everyone had their own alteration to the feudal structure - Italians and Spanish had a much more prevalent non knightly class, the Germans had those Ministerial Knights who were almost Mamluk-like in being "Owned" by their ruler but the basic sketch would stay the same:

Non Knights:

• Serjen/Sergeant - Professional yeomans independent of feudal structure. Lowest quality arms, armor, skill, horses
• Serviens - Sergeants who have become "Servants" or an entourage to a knight. Second lowest quality arms, armor, skill, horses. From the Osprey MAA French 1000-1300: "Even as early as the mid 12th century, however, complete arms had become too expensive for non noble warriors, professional sergeants being equipped by the nobles who maintained them. There was also plenty of variation in the quality and quantity of weaponry and hroses amongst the knights, betraying rank as well as wealth."
  
• Armiger/Armigeri - "Squire". Accounts vary on if they fought in battle or not, but I think it would be foolish to conclude they didn't fight in this period, where there was much less of the chivalric/heraldic spirit found in later decades and centuries. They'd be the middle ground.

Armiger would then upgrade into..

Knights:

• Vavassor - Lowest class knights, the vassals of vassals. Would be third highest quality of the regular feudal cavalry
• Miles Minores - "Lesser Knight". They'd be second highest quality of regular feudal cavalry.
• Miles Majores - "Senior Knight". Best of the regular feudal quality

There would be equipment variations but not as much as might be true of other mods (Since the most cutting edge armor most knights would have is just double mail), it would more be a scaling of skill: Vavassors, Miles Minores and Miles Majores would all pretty much have similar armor (Although double mail might be left to the Majores), the latter two would both have warhorses, but a Miles Majores would be a murderous killing machine. Something like a Serjen cavalrymen being level 8-15, while a Miles Majores would be level 55-60, but the latter would be very rare.

We could apply the same sort of quality/scarcity to the Muslims without the evolutionary quality - level 8-15 Turkomans vs level 55-60 Royal Mamluks.

What would be super awesome is if somehow when a troop reached the Miles Majores level they became killable heroes (or even ones with names) but I don't see that being possible.

Also on the topic of Surcoats, the Armies of Feudal Europe 1000-1300: "They appear in Western sources by circa 1150 at the latest (the seal of 1141-1142 of Waleran de Beaumont, Comte de Meulan, and Earl of Worcester, apparently being the first pictoral representation) while a 12th century Muslim writer Usama ibn Munqidh seems to describe a long green and yellow silk surcoat, apparently sleeved, in an incident of the Crusades in 1127. Not widely worn until early 13th century, and at first usually just white or self colored (Osprey's earliest depiction is a 1160 era Breton serjeant with a sleeveless one)."

Although if we do use surcoats, I'd suggest a retexture of another model rather than the really ugly current model. But that's for the far future, just wanted to report on it.

 

[Tibertus]

I always thought surcoats came into use during the first crusade.

 

[Outlawed]

Sahran,

In terms of the division between cavalry types. It makes sense. One would think Europe would have clone cavalry trees as well as Sicily, but this is actually not the case. I think developing one nomenclature for all 'Knights' might not even be necessary. Maybe if we are looking at the Crusader states, then yeah, they use the same unit trees so it would make sense to have that system you've described up there.

However, the thing were you say that there was a difference in armor and quality is perfectly true. Mamluks were different from Provincial Cavalry, who were different from Mercs.

Even in Europe, I've been working on the HRE troop list and I have two divisions for their cavalry. One is the town levies or "Stadter" and the other is the class you described, the Ministerials or Dienstleute.

On to surcoats, in Europe, the whole concept didn't develop until the early 1200's. Prior to that, and prior to both first and second crusade, you didn't need to cover your maille up in anything. During the first and towards the beginning of the second is when they start to appear. The orders also adopt them. I think they were worn, but not as elaborate herald markers, but more for protection against heat. We will definitely have them for Outremer units, but not for European units.

 

[Sahran]

Sahran,

In terms of the division between cavalry types. It makes sense. One would think Europe would have clone cavalry trees as well as Sicily, but this is actually not the case. I think developing one nomenclature for all 'Knights' might not even be necessary. Maybe if we are looking at the Crusader states, then yeah, they use the same unit trees so it would make sense to have that system you've described up there.

Oh I wasn't really basing that recommendation off of Sicily exclusively, it was more the general impression I'd gotten from prior research into the Normans, French, and others. But that sounds good to me, I might apply it retroactively to Outremer but it shouldn't be universally applied since like you mention doing with the HRE there's their own approach to knightliness and the French or Spanish or English would have their own system too.

 

[Outlawed]

Yes indeed. They each had their own versions of Knighthood and even feudalism. The latter was only really introduced in Germany with Barbarossa.

In that regard, here are the units for the HRE. Please do read and comment if necessary. The Mercenary lists were based on pictures and small references, but there weren't many solid resource on that.

隐藏: Local HRE Units

隐藏: Special HRE Units

隐藏: Mercenary HRE Units