B Medieval [WB] Warband: Total Realism, 1148 A.D. - (MAPPER needed)

[Sahran]

Knights: Options of nomenclature

• Miles (pl. Milites) - Latin term applied to mounted warriors/knights by the chroniclers in the 11th and 12th century
• "Knight" in the native tongue - Ritter in HRE, Chevalier in France, Proto-Knight (Cniht?) in England, Miles (pl. Milites) in Sicily/Outremer, whatever in Spain.

Sergeants: Options of nomenclature

• Sergeant (English)
• Serjen (French)
• Servientes (Latin)

Were technically lesser feudal tenants than knights, but by the end of the 12th century defined a loose distinction between noble and non noble soldiers (The sergeants). Was used by chroniclers in a blanket application for non knightly soldiers of a feudal andn on feudal status. Hence they could be a knight's entourage, a vassal to a knight, a mercenary, a rich yeoman, ect.

I am inclined to appropriate sergeant/serjens to mean a lower class  or non feudal yeoman warrior, and the servientes to mean the sergeants who are part of the feudal structure. I am fine with using Serjen in Outremer since French was the lingua franca and the language of the administration.


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Crusader States Local/Feudal Units
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Arriere-Ban Footmen / Retrobannum Footmen - serfs, pretty much. Unarmored, no helmets, hodgepodge of weaponry.

Militiae Crossbowmen / Militiae Spearmen - unarmored (helmet on spears, on some for xbow) militia troops.

Serjen Crossbowmen - lightly armored professional crossbowmen

Serjen Infantry - lightly armored professional melee infantry

Serjen Spearmen - lightly armored professional spearmen

Servientes Loricati Spearmen - medium armored professional spearmen.

OPTIONAL - Miles (pl. Milites) Poulain - "Half breed" Knights. A class produced by the marriage of crusaders with local christian women. Catholic in faith, but clung to aspects of local culture. So they'd look like "Arabized" knights perhaps with coifs having turbans/wraps and so on.

OPTIONAL - Miles (pl. Milites) d'Syrie - Indigenous Armenian/Syrian/Palestinian Christian men raised to knighthood. Would be the same design as the Poulains - orientalized knights. Still wield the lance and sword, but maybe they'd ride Arab horses.

Miles (pl. Milites) d'Outremer - Knights of Outremer/Overseas. Might change the name if I can figure out what they referred to the Crusader States/Palestine as. One option is to have separate knights for Tripoli, Jerusalem, and Antioch. There'd be very little/no difference in stats, just in dress but I don't think that's necessary because surcoats didn't seem popular or even used at this point.

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Crusader States Mercenary Units
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Turcopoles - true blue turcopoles, armed with bow (maybe guarantee either a bow or a javelin, but allow variation?), light lance, sword, mace, sometimes a shield.

Solidarius / Stipendarii Crossbowmen - soft armored crossbowmen

Solidarius / Stipendarii Footmen - medium armored (mail, possibly other stuff) melee infantry

"Italian Marines" - medium armored crossbowmen with sidearm and occassional shields

Solidarius / Stipendarii Serjens a Cheval - Mercenary Mounted Sergeants. Mixture of thick soft armor and light mail, much more plentiful and much cheaper than the mercenary knights. Sergeants + mercenary sergeants should make up the mainstay of your cavalry.

Solidarius / Stipendarii Miles (pl. Milites) - Mercenary Knights. Solidarius from 'man serving for pay', and Stipendarii from 'paid man' or 'man with a stipend'. These are the generic knightly mercenaries available to everyone - Byzantines, Turks, Franks, Christians and Muslims alike. The other mercenary milites are only available to the Crusaders.

Francia/Francorum Miles (pl. Milites) - French Knights, hired as mercenaries or given a temporary fief in exchange for service while they are on pilgrimage/crusade or just being mercenaries. Superior with the lance to their fellow "Ethnic Knights"

Germania/Germanicus Miles (pl. Milites) - German Knights, hired as mercenaries or given a temporary fief in exchange for service while on pilgrimage/crusade or just being mercenaries. Famed for their skill as infantrymen and valued as such by the Byzantines (who held their knights on foot with swords to be premiere), they are greatly superior to their fellow "Ethnic Knights" when on foot. Probably spawn them with horses, though.

Normannorum/Nortmanni Miles (pl. Milites) - Norman Knights from Normandy, England, or Sicily, hired as mercenaries or given a temporary fief in exchange for service while on pilgrimage/crusade or just being mercenaries. Probably the best knightly mercenaries available, but as a result much more expensive.

Ramik Archers - same as in Armenia. Unarmored, but with shield and some with helmets archers.

Azatagund Horsemen - same as in Armenia.

Jabaliya Hillmen - largely Shi'ite hillmen of Lebanon/Syria, unarmored and armed with javelins

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Crusader States Special Units
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TRIPOLI:
Maronite Archer - light, high quality foot archers

Maronite Horsemen - light horsemen, perhaps lighter than Turcopoles, armed with mix of javelins and bows

ANTIOCH:

Ramik(spas) archers, infantry, and cavalry from Armenia
Anazat archers, infantry, and cavalry from Armenia

JERUSALEM:

Miles de Familia Regis - knights of the king's household

Miles de Familia Constabularius - knights of the constable's (The commander of the army) household

UNIVERSAL:

Templier Frère-Chevalier / Frère-Miles (pl. Milites) - Templar Brother-Knight

Templier Frère-Serjen a Cheval - Templar Mounted Brother-Sergeant
Apparently wore black surcoat/cappa(?) with red cross on front/back

Templier Frère-Serjen Spearman - Templar Brother-Sergeant
Apparently wore black surcoat/cappa(?) with red cross on front/back

Templier Frère-Serjen Crossbowman - Templar Brother-Sergeant
Apparently wore black surcoat/cappa(?) with red cross on front/back

Hospitalier Frère d'armes: Hospitaller Brother-in-Arms.
Given they didn't differenciate between knight and sergeant at this point, perhaps a bit less armored than the Templars.

Pilgrims
Unarmored troops armed with a hodgepodge of weaponry

Moving onto Sicily next, and then Iberia/Almohads.

 

[Magnum]

Well, we do have the Russian Varrangian Guard for now, this should maybe feed some of that hunger for a whole faction. We will not be changing faction lists for first release, maybe in the future after the Wendish Crusade expansion, if we do get that far.

Well ok for now 

onto anther subject i also enjoy the reconquista http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&rlz=1R2ADBR_enUS336&q=the%20reconquista%20map&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&biw=997&bih=448and and i believe that castille and leon were united at this point in the crown of castille were they not?

 

[Outlawed]

Sahran. That is perfect stuff, I can expect no less from WTR's leading researcher. I guess I'll do Zengids so we can clean up the east then!
I'll push my way north and maybe you can start with Almohads then! so we meet at the Iberian Peninsula.

EDIT:
Yes, we will be having the Iberian Peninsula in there. Thankfully for us, 1148 is a crazy period, the Almoravids had lost alot of territory, and the Almohads were gaining power while the Christian allies along side Crusaders were also still strong.
As for the states, Leon and Castille were separate entities up until the mid 13th century IIRC

 

[Sahran]

I can cover the Zengids if you'd like to focus on the Northern Europeans, but otherwise that sounds like a plan to me. 

 

[Outlawed]

I can cover the Zengids if you'd like to focus on the Northern Europeans, but otherwise that sounds like a plan to me. 

Zengids, as we discussed before, might end up looking like clones, but I want to do some research on their special units and the such ;p
HRE, France, England as opposed to Almohads, Leon, Castile, Aragon, Sicily, Portugal and Navarra.

However, I look at our map, and I'm still confused as to what we should do with Italy. I don't want to create 4 new factions (Maritime), but creating a 'faction' called the Maritime Republics would be sort of silly, because everyone in Italy was in a state of disunity at the time. Suggestions?

 

[Nodscouter]

I'd say 4 new factions. Take your time and make it good. Is the Papal state going to be in?

 

[AoC]

What prevent you from doing 4 basic factions ?

 

[Outlawed]

The reason I said 4 was to simplify the area a little bit. If we are to do Italy and separate the states, we would have (along side Sicily) 17 new little factions that each were separate form each other and had disputes. Maybe just have the Miritime Republics, The Papal States and the two Sicilies.

But, if I include the Papal States, I'll have to deal with things regarding the Pope, and missions from the Pope. This will encourage my idea of the messenger system, where I wanted to add this feature that allowed you to send messages and carry conversations out with figures across the map. But I don't have the coding power to do this, so this makes me reluctant.

 

[Sahran]

Of all the options I feel like 2-4 minor factions is better than 1 generic one or 17 minuscule ones.

Find out which Italian states were the most rebellious to the HRE at this point (preferably in North or central Italy), which were the most powerful and capable of exercising their power and go with it. I think the Italian State's emergence in the affairs of the Crusader States comes a bit later, but when it does Genoa and Venice are at the forefront.

It'll be easy for me to do the military research, so don't let that be a concern

 

[Outlawed]

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It seems the Papal States had a good control of the area,

So it would be:

• The Papal States

controlling Rome, Corneto and most of the Eastern port cities.

• Venice

In 1182, the Byzantine Emperor marches on Constantinople, and he siezed property and imprisoned or abolished Venetian owners. It seems Venice had the most powerful naval force in terms of trade and transportation and their power (extending to Byzantium) was of concern even to the emperor himslef.

• Tuscany

After the death of countess Matilda, Tuscany's size geographically is said to have almost halfed. The control was now in the hands of the remaining Maritime states.

• Kingdom of Italy?

Basically we are talking the remnants of Lombardy and Verona here. So Genoa, Milano, Vicenza and Verona. Internally, these states were at disunity, but it seems logical to have them under one faction because of their similarities in warfare, and because of no roles they had 'overseas'.

The Papal States was clearly a separate entity due to the Pope. Sicily was also a separate entity along side Naples, and the bays of Palermo and Cagliari. (Palermo at around 1000 was Byzantine controlled IIRC). Tuscany was also a separate entity, I think this because of their revolts against Conrad II and the repsonse of said king as well; Rainier fought Conrad II, whom he obviously didn't support (He did support the empror before him though I can't recall the name) and removed him from his position. Florence also was a very 'unique' city that became the center of Italy later.

 

[Magnum]

Would'nt the millaneese also be one?

 

[SeRgYu]

Very nice,can't wait for it to get released 

 

[Outlawed]

Would'nt the millaneese also be one?

Milan, Genoa and Verona would be one. Milano wasn't as influencial as say Venice or Florence though in terms of how much effect they had overseas and in outremer. They were however the strongest military force in Italy.

Very nice,can't wait for it to get released 

=)

 

[socks]

In the faction list I see basically none of Eastern Europe, from the pagans in the North down to the Balkans. Will this area be omitted?

 

[Tibertus]

I believe Napoli was included in the Kingdom of Sicily during this time. It wasn't until later that they separated.

 

[Outlawed]

In the faction list I see basically none of Eastern Europe, from the pagans in the North down to the Balkans. Will this area be omitted?

Yes, we will not have those areas for first release. Our next expansion will focus on the Wendish Crusades and expansions to the East towards Iran as well. If we do manage to get there. My hope is endless though!

I believe Napoli was included in the Kingdom of Sicily during this time. It wasn't until later that they separated.

Indeed it was. I was referring to the Two Sicilies as they became to be known later.

 

[Tibertus]

Oh, "Sicily was also a separate entity along side Naples" made it kinda look like you were referring to them as separate kingdoms.

 

[Outlawed]

Oh, "Sicily was also a separate entity along side Naples" made it kinda look like you were referring to them as separate kingdoms.

No I meant Sicily was also a separate entity together with Naples.
Like they, together, were a separate entity =p Anyway you know what I mean.

 

[Sahran]

Opinions on nomenclature options for the "Knightly" types of troops, since the terms used varied and I think we should stick with a common approach to it so there's no confusion:

Option 1
Senior Knights: Primi Miles/Milites
Lesser Knights: Secundi Miles/Milites

Option 2
Senior Knights: Miles/Milites Majores
Lesser Knights: Miles/Milites Minores

Option 3
Senior Knights: Miles/Milites
Lesser Knights: Vavassores (Rear vassals) or Vavassini (Rear-rear Vassals)

Option 4
Senior Knights: Milites Mediae Nobiles
Lesser Knights: Milites Rustici


Option 5
Senior Knights: Find applicable indigenous term (Ritter/Chevalier/ect)
Lesser Knights: Find applicable indigenous inferior term (what were the lesser ritters, chevaliers, ect.)


My preference is to Option 2 or 3, because it's easiest for the player to digest. The "Major" Miles is the superior one to the "minor". Any player will quickly identify Miles/Milites as Knight the same way any player of EB or RTR quickly realized "Peltast = skirmisher", "Thuerophoroi = oval shield infantry", and so on.

So for example:

Crusader Knight is a "Miles Majores de (or d') Outremer"
French Knight is a "Miles Majores de Francia" / "Francia Miles Majores"
German Knight is a "Miles Majores de Germania" / "Germania Miles Majores"
Norman Knight is a "Miles Majores de Normanni" / "Normanni Miles Majores"
Castillian Knight is a "Miles Majores de Castella" / "Castella Miles Majores"

And so on. If Option 2 is approved, then which direction should we go with? The former ("Miles Majores de ________") is more gramatically correct. The latter is shorter and easier for someone unfamiliar with Latin/Romance languages to understand since we English speakers think "adjective first, subject second".

From an Osprey book on the Normans, they gave this listing of the stratification of the warrior class. It seems like it was delivered in order:

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Warrior class stratification:
Knight = Miles
Bacheler
Pueri
Armigeri = squire
Vavassor = equal to 1/4 to 1/2 a knight in Normandy circa 1133
Serviens
Serjeant

And just calling them Knights is (at least for me) not acceptable.  Obviously all troops need to be 'half anglicized half ethnic' so the player knows what they are upgrading into or buying with some exceptions (miles or Mamluks are so prevalent the player will quickly learn it always means a mounted high class warrior). But a soldier being called "Normanni Miles Majores" is a lot more exciting than "Norman Knight". 

 

[Outlawed]

I'd go for option 2, but in French.
So,
Chevalier Senior/Principal
Chevalier Junior

Mainly because French seems to be the language of Outremer as far as I'm concerned =p
Also, I can't remember which game it was, but when I clicked on the Knight, the unit would say Senior! Or it might have been MTWII Crusades when I click on a general... I can't remember =p