SP Antiquity [WB] Shadows in the Desert - An Ancient Middle East Mod

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kozakyespana

Sergeant
M&BWBWF&SNW
Sahran said:
Originally it was, then we decided to have them absorbed into the Syro-Hittite Confederacy, and we're considering making them re-independent. The problem for the Hebrews is they don't offer anything really tasty when it comes to warfare, except maybe a sling specialization. In dress they'd pretty much be referring to Philistine/Canaanite for early period and Assyrian for later period. By comparison, the Philistines offer a preponderance of sturdy, heavy infantry, the Aramaeans have light infantry and light cavalry, and Hittites have heavier cavalry and infantry. Hebrews have infantry of all types, though armor is more scarce compared to others (save for the Aramaeans). But they don't seem to have really sought any sort of cavalry modernization like most everyone else. And the infantry, aside of slingers, are just generally 'meh'. If we go with a Heroic Epic vibe then there's legitimacy in having a stronger Hebrew state of David, Saul, or Solomon.

We'll still consider the Jewish Kingdom as a full fledged faction, but I can't guarantee they would be independent in 1.0 or perhaps at all, although it's more than likely they'd be a candidate for independence.

Please add a Jewish Kingdom. With either David or Solomon. Screw Historical crap. May I also note that if you target the "Historical Audience" they will always be critizing on every little detail. They will not be easy to satisfy to begin with. Pls don’t get me wrong...we DO need history, and to be honest I'm not really liking the whole xena mythical idea, but if we go COMPLETELY historically accurate, famous faction leaders won’t be included...in other words, if we include one guy we can’t include another.
Bottom line: Real historical Characters, real place names, and real factions. No Xenas and Hercules like people. But at the same time let Egypt have its Ramses, Israel its David/Solomon, Babylon its Nebuchachadnezzar, Persia its Ahasuerus and so forth. It will appeal to a much wider audience and its pros and cons will be balanced out.
 

Sahran

Grandmaster Knight
We're going with the Kingdom of Israel under David (With Philistine, Phoenician, and Aramaean vassals). The other factions are Trojan League, Persia, Assyria, Scythia, Egypt, and probably Babylonia.
 

Al_Mansur

Grandmaster Knight
WB
kuauik said:
thanks Al,but if i know how to do vertex painting  :???:

The same or me. I don't know how to do that. I just know that one of the best programs for it is Meshlab. But in this case, I don't think that your model needs vertex painting.
 

kozakyespana

Sergeant
M&BWBWF&SNW
Sahran said:
We're going with the Kingdom of Israel under David (With Philistine, Phoenician, and Aramaean vassals). The other factions are Trojan League, Persia, Assyria, Scythia, Egypt, and probably Babylonia.

WAAAAAAHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!
 

Cèsar de Quart

Master Knight
kozakyespana said:
We DO need history, and to be honest I'm not really liking the whole xena mythical idea, but if we go COMPLETELY historically accurate, famous faction leaders won’t be included...in other words, if we include one guy we can’t include another.

Yes, do it "cool", but respect, as you have been doing, the historical aspect of the factions.

What would be really fresh and clever would be to set up the "cool" ancient Middle East, while keeping it historical "to the eye", not to the setting. Real people,  real factions, real culture and appearance, but flexibility.

Also, as I said before, play with the myth. Do it so the player can feel that the mythical past of Sargon of Akkad, of Rustan, of Osiris, Narmer and the Scorpion King, happened last weekend. This can be done through items, quests, texts...  Let Elam, Amurru, Sumer, the first Babylonians, be "there" still, even though their factions are long since gone.

***

Also, I want to ask, who made the models? I've been trying to learn how to make rigged models but I fail utterly, I don't get anything. I've been trying to do a Bishop-Pope fancy vest and I'd like to ask the maker of those beauties how did he do it. Is it you, Kuauik...?

(Also, in the images I notice one important lack: normalmaps. They are really important, and none of these models has any. I would gladly ofer my help if I had time, but E1200 already takes most of my leasure time, so...  But I really mean it: normalmaps are veeeeery important)

***

Here I found several Ancient Middle East maps in Euratlas:

XXIIth Centiury BC
cd_2200_2100.jpg


XVIIIth Century BC:
bg_1800_1700.jpg


XIIIth Century BC
bb_1300_1200.jpg


VIIth Century BC
ae_0800_0700.jpg

Now, seeing how Persia is a very late faction, maybe Media would be a better shot at this mod's purpose. Let Persia be an emergent faction. Maybe the player can play Cyrus the Great :smile:  Problem is, not much is known about the Medes, but still, most people would agree they could have been similar to the Persians.
 

kuauik

Baron
WB
Also, I want to ask, who made the models? I've been trying to learn how to make rigged models but I fail utterly, I don't get anything. I've been trying to do a Bishop-Pope fancy vest and I'd like to ask the maker of those beauties how did he do it. Is it you, Kuauik...?
i just edited the existing models ingame,so  you can just go copy in brf and then paste rigging,its not the best solution,but it will do
(Also, in the images I notice one important lack: normalmaps. They are really important, and none of these models has any. I would gladly ofer my help if I had time, but E1200 already takes most of my leasure time, so...  But I really mean it: normalmaps are veeeeery important)
i can not test the normal maps on my pc,so Sahran will make them at some point
Now, seeing how Persia is a very late faction, maybe Media would be a better shot at this mod's purpose. Let Persia be an emergent faction. Maybe the player can play Cyrus the Great    Problem is, not much is known about the Medes, but still, most people would agree they could have been similar to the Persians
well iam working on the mod because of Persia :mrgreen:

 

Sahran

Grandmaster Knight
Cèsar de Quart:

NPC wise we're actually going with Shahnameh's reign of Kai Kavus right before the wars with Afrasiyab and Sohrab vs Rostam and Kavus. It's difficult to put down a specific corresponding point in history for the myth but one interesting analogy I heard was Kai Kavus being Cyrus the Great (although the analogy was tricky, since it may have said Khosrow was cyrus and his grandfather Kavus was Cyrus's son..or something).

Either way, our Persians are principally inspired by the early period Achaemenids, who in turn were a pretty strong imitation of the Medes. We could be amenable to having the Medes added in 2.0 (Taking up West Iran, Azerbaijan, Transcaucasus and a bit of Eastern Anatolia - in lieu of the Urartians, in other words), but not at the exclusion of Persia. There is no single 'favored son' faction that gets more attention or emphasis, but if there was it'd probably be Persia.  :mrgreen:

And yeah I'll be doing specular and normalmaps.
 

michaell

Sergeant
glad you are making The Israelite Kingdom !
maybe I could help with some units names and stuff like that (I'm living in Israel)

+ If you are going to make Israeli-Philistine kingdom so you better devide the troop tree to 2 because philistine were yousing more greek equipment (big round shields+some times  long spears etc..) and israeli were yousing there own weaponry


 

Sahran

Grandmaster Knight
I think I'm squared away on names, but you can verify them - keep in mind they may differ from modern Hebrew:

___________ 'Am - Male Citizen/Men/People with martial civic obligations. It can translate into Militia, which it is in this context. The reservist Jews of martial age. The underscored would be the accurate period title of Hebrew/Jewish (Prefer not to go with Israelite, since this is both North & South of the United Kingdoms).

(few of the old references I could scrounge back up - http://books.google.com/books?id=e0FrevlVXjUC&pg=PA12&dq=Ancient+Hebrew+%27amm+militia&hl=en&ei=iAKnTebrA6bm0QGctJz5CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false & http://books.google.com/books?id=tyvE1cwgqA0C&pg=PA138&dq=Ancient+Hebrew+%27amm+militia&hl=en&ei=iAKnTebrA6bm0QGctJz5CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CEAQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q&f=false &

Ish Milchamah ________: Men of War. The members of the militia currently in armed service. The underscored is the type of unit - "Ish Milchamah Spearmen" or archer or slinger, ect. (http://books.google.com/books?id=7Bg8CoRcI3AC&pg=PA254&lpg=PA254&dq=Ish+Milchamah&source=bl&ots=qD-uDeeMcS&sig=lozoL8gqkAcHZtZY7AqsFqBFv1I&hl=en&ei=6AKnTbvzM5KitgeRh6mFAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBQQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Ish%20Milchamah&f=false)

Ish Bachur __________: "Chosen men", the senior members of the militia/most talented soldiers. Another option is "Valiant Man" - Ish Hayil. (http://books.google.com/books?id=7Bg8CoRcI3AC&pg=PA254&dq=Ish+bachur&hl=en&ei=BAOnTY_HI6GX0QHhveD5CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Ish%20bachur&f=false)

Gibborim - the core of the army, being professional regular soldiers. Meant "Mighty men". (http://books.google.com/books?id=KyBVAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA153&dq=Gibborim&hl=en&ei=EwOnTYWBGOTE0QGoo8n5CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CEwQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=Gibborim&f=false)

Mishma'ath - the personal bodyguard of David, consisting of foreign mercenaries and principally Philistines.

Then you've got the Phoenician contingents (Nothing special, I might merge them with the Aramaeans but if not they'd just be spearmen with cavalry), Aramaean contingents (Light infantry and cavalry), and Philistine contingents (Top notch swordsmen). We've given cavalry to factions that made big use of chariots (which we currently cannot depict). However, while most authors today doubt the assumptions of the past that David made no use of chariots (and even hamstrung any chariot horses he came into possession of), it's clear he barely made any use of them compared to Solomon and they would have come from his Aramaean/Philistine/Phoenician vassals. Ergo, the Hebrew Israelites won't have any cavalry, but their Aramaean/Phoenician vassals will. Khergit territory is then divided into four aors of Hebrew, Aramaean, Philistine, and Phoenician. In turn, Hebrew units would get an bonus to athleticism to reflect their irregular, guerilla warfare preference in the rough terrain of the levant.

I have someone helping me with Israel NPC names, but I'm still open to suggestions be they specific characters from David's reign or general names to use.
 

Revan Shan

Grandmaster Knight
BTW, just a thought I have here... Saying 'Jeovah' is still a sin between jews? Or they don't care about that any more?
 

Feragorn

Marquis
M&BWBNW
Revan Shan said:
BTW, just a thought I have here... Saying 'Jeovah' is still a sin between jews? Or they don't care about that any more?

Jehovah was never a sin, it's not even close to what the tetragrammaton sounded like.
 

Ritter Dummbatz

Grandmaster Knight
Since you told me you are gonna throw back, I hope that me being a stupid german, I am hopefully wise enough, at least not to throw the first stone  :razz:
 
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