SP Native [WB] Kunst des Fechtens (Art of fighting) (initial testing has begun)

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Sorry for the late responses :razz: This semester is quite busy for me

LittleJP said:
Are you able to encode more footwork in the AI?
I'm not sure exactly what you mean, but I believe what I'm currently working on qualifies.

Conners said:
Downloading now :grin:!

Something that might interest you, Ares, is this fellow's new project: http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,211833.0.html
Going to be working with him. With time, his project might meld with yours perfectly. Would love it if we could get a compilation of mods that make a very authentic medieval experience.


PS: Sorry if this is off-topic, but I'll also mention this: http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/stand-together-the-gaming-community-vs-sopa-and-pipa
PPS: What's, "WSE"?
That certainly looks interesting. The fellow will need to learn some coding. Maybe I could help him related to coding (help him to learn coding at least). It's definitely something that is in the same vein as what I am doing.

I probably will start using the WSE at some point. It will help streamline a lot of the coding (especially the AI/battlefield coding)


as far as progress... like I said, this semester is really busy, so I haven't gotten any coding done, just theory. So far, I have taken control of the npc's footwork to some extent. Right now, the npc does a very good job of maintaining a consistent distance from the player; he has much better "footwork reflexes" than the stock AI. Also, they can successfully execute a timing-based counter (in other words, they charge in and attack immediately after you attack; the result is that they enter range and hit you while you are in the "follow-through" stage of your attack)
When I can get back to coding, I will code the AI concerning what to do at different ranges, get them executing timing-based-counters at various ranges, executing 1-time counters, experiment with chamber blocking, add in some randomization, and maybe even experiment with some lateral movement. I'm not exactly sure when, but I will also begin coding AI attacking (not just countering and defense) because currently, my AI is almost purely defensive :razz: . Perhaps this summer I will have a challenging but scalable melee AI and hopefully implement that AI to all npc's based on stats.

Here is something that we should definitely discuss:
which stats should determine the personality of the npc and how?
I suppose that stats like ironflesh and strength are one indication. A stronger, tougher npc would be more fearless/confident and probably offensive; they would probably tend to "grapple" more than other npc's. An npc with higher agility and athletics would likely try to stay out of range more and utilize timing/footwork based attacks/counters. An npc with lower intelligence would likely be more of a brawler tending to "grapple" and fight at close range and likely use simple techniques. An npc with higher intelligence would likely tend toward more sophisticated/advanced techniques (like 1-time counters and chamber blocks).

But there are a lot of stats, and the more stats we utilize for determining personality, the more varied experience we will have when fighting with npc's.
 
Kazzan said:
Or add some new skills to determine technique/footwork/brute force?
I don't really think we need to. Besides, that would mean adding new stats to every single "troop" which is something I would like to avoid. I think the stats already in-game cover what we need, and using them would be a more elegant solution.

Here is a list of stats:
-Strength
-Intelligence
-Agility
-Charisma

-ironflesh
-powerstrike
-powerthrow
-powerdraw
-weapon master
-shield
-athletics
-riding
-horse archery
-inventory management
-prisoner management
-leadership
-training
-tactics
-engineer
-pathfinding
-spotting
-tracking
-wound treatment
-surgery
-first aid
-trade
-looting

-1 hand
-2 hand
-polearm
-archery
-crossbows
-throwing

I definitely wasn't thinking of using all of these. Just thought it would be worth it to see if anyone had any good ideas.

One thing I was thinking was having morale affect the way an npc would fight (the more morale, the more confidence, the greater likelihood of performing a technique). Morale could be effected by a combination of weapon proficiencies and the weapon being wielded. For example, an npc with low weapon proficiency in 2-handed weapons wielding a 2-handed sword would not be very confident with it and so would have lower morale.
 
Hi,
what do you think of this mod?
Is it compatible to your work?
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,211833.0.html
 
Its not just an idea discussion, smarty. The guy who wants to implement it, (SAAj) is currently working on how to implement the system to the game. And i also would love to see it implemented
 
Well, I'll finally give an update on this :razz:

It is not dead! I am still slowly working on it [very slowly :razz: ].

First of all, I'd like to explain a bit more on my goal in this mod. I have recently been playing some fighting games (Tekken 6/UFC 3) and learning about their mechanics. To be blunt, those games poop all over Warband melee combat in terms of deep, rich, balanced gameplay (of course, I mean no offense to the developers. They were not trying to create a "fighting game" like Tekken). While I don't want to make "Mount and Blade: Tekken", my goal is to enrich and deepen the gameplay of Warband melee combat.

The biggest problem I see with Warband's melee is that that "block" is overpowered (kind of funny to say a purely defensive action is overpowered :razz: ). Basically, except in few rare cases, successfully blocking an attack automatically gives you the initiative (meaning if you attack immediately afterwards, the opponent must block or be hit). In addition, there is no way to actually defeat a block. Well, there is the kick, but that is very risky and doesn't work often (good blockers can still block your follow-up). So basically, the block reigns supreme. Essentially, we have a rock, paper, scissors game where rock beats scissors and [most of the time] paper.

So my first goal is to balance gameplay so that blocking is not so overpowered. I want to add more offensive options that can get around blocks (for example adding throws). I want to add the possibility of actually playing offensively! And of course with these offensive additions, I also want to expand a players defensive tools as well.


Though general progress has been very slow, I have successfully implemented "follow-up" attacks (basically a quick follow-up attack immediately after your attack is blocked, significantly faster than a normal attack so that the defender must block again). This means of course that I also need to add new options to the defender to balance things out. I could add a quick counter-attack strike after a successful block, but I don't want to make basically a faster/simpler version of what we already have. (there would only be two "follow-up" directions making it easier to predict blocking direction)

So I thought of a new idea to enrich gameplay. I was thinking about real historical fencing and about how many actions are related to leverage. Most windings, throws, grabs, and wrestling-of-the-sword have everything to do with leverage. Actually, the masters speak about "strong" and "weak" (to go strong when the opponent is weak, to go weak when the opponent is strong. Kind of like Yin and Yang I guess), and this has everything to do with leverage as well.

So I considered: what if I added a "leverage" gauge to the game (whether visible or hidden). Most aggressive actions would require you to have more leverage than your opponent (I'm not talking about the standard built-in attacks). There would probably be certain actions you could perform in order to steal the leverage of your opponent as well. I also considered that your movement relative to the opponent would "modify" the difference between your leverage. Things like throws, grabs, follow-up attacks, and counter-attacks would require more leverage than the opponent.

What do you guys think?
 
ares007 said:
The biggest problem I see with Warband's melee is that that "block" is overpowered (kind of funny to say a purely defensive action is overpowered :razz: ). Basically, except in few rare cases, successfully blocking an attack automatically gives you the initiative (meaning if you attack immediately afterwards, the opponent must block or be hit). In addition, there is no way to actually defeat a block. Well, there is the kick, but that is very risky and doesn't work often (good blockers can still block your follow-up). So basically, the block reigns supreme. Essentially, we have a rock, paper, scissors game where rock beats scissors and [most of the time] paper.

Partially agreed.




It's nice to see you're still on this nice project. :smile:

It's also encouraging for mine. :wink:
 
what is, if you change the way kicks work?
so that you move a bit forward wile kicking.... don't know how to describe it...but in m&b everyone walks, stops moving, kick, move again... i mean the kick should be somehow in the move... you know what i mean?
 
Well, the going has been really slow. During the busy semester, I was only able to do conceptual work, but I'm finally ready to start doing some more coding. My next order of business is to add in a "balance" system. Basically each person will have a certain amount of balance and this will be affected by whatever you are doing. For example, you will have better balance while standing still than while running. Also, when things happen like getting hit, you will temporarily lose some of your balance. Once all of your balance is gone, you will fall. I don't know that this will make a huge difference on gameplay right now, but later once I start adding in grappling stuff, it will probably play a huge roll.

Duh said:
Feinting could also be considered a valid block counter.
Yes feinting can be used to try to get around someone's defense, but it does not in and of itself beat blocking. There are two ways that I can immediately think of in which feinting is used against decent opponents: 1) to trick the opponent into attack at the wrong time. In this sense, feinting is mainly just a timing variation. 2) feinting can make it more difficult to see which direction the true attack is coming from. This makes it more difficult to block a feinting opponent's attacks, but the feints are still not "beating" the defense.
In either case, the feint is really just a mind-game and not an actual attack.
 
ares007 said:
Belendor said:
Woah, impressive, i just hope you dont need "Help" like other spammers.
Yeah, I should be able to do this one by myself.

Of course, I'll need people to test it, and I will certainly accept help for things that I'm not skilled in (for example signature links, demonstration videos, etc)



Almost done with finals, so I should make some progress before the week is over :grin:

if you manage to give me some raw footage, i could put a weekend in and have a trailer all made just for you. =D
 
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