SP Antiquity [WB] Civilisation beta/proof of concept released

How complex should the economy be in Civilisation ?

  • Extreme. I want to fine tune everything.

    Votes: 30 36.6%
  • Quite. I want to tune some details in it.

    Votes: 44 53.7%
  • Not too much. Emphasis should be on war and the military.

    Votes: 4 4.9%
  • Not at all. Just a few numbers will do. We are talking about warband, not economyband.

    Votes: 4 4.9%

  • Total voters
    82

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Cernunos said:
Just to make sure, so that you are not dissapointed, "hoplites" won't look like greek hoplites. This is just a name and a reference for troops that will be equipped with heavy armor/spear/big round shield/dagger.
Just like marius legionnaries won't look like marius legionnaries, but is a name holder for troops equipped with heavy armor/big shield/throwing spear/short sword.
Peltasts are a troop equiped with small shield, a dagger, and very light armor.

Of course, is the mod gains momentum, I might get some help to add these graphical modifications.

However, cosmetism has never been the goal of my mods (like rigale, or now civilisation), but really depth of play and increased world interactions and RPG feel.

And I am looking for help again, as I am really not a calradian scholar, could any of the troops below have a calradian cosmetic/effectiveness counterpart ? So that I can create troops in a more efficient way, instead of having to go through a list of equipment/troops, and trying to guess what would fit in what case .
My goal would be to copy paste the proper calradian troop into a civilisation one, with maybe a few minor modifications.

For example, what would be the calradian iconic horse riding archer ? So I can copy paste this troop , and rename it, and add it to the list of civilisation available troops. That would be a great time saver.
I hope I am doing this right, but I'll give it a shot.

Cataphract = Sarranid mamluke
Horse riding archer = Khergit horse archer
Light horseman = Would have to say, Manhunters or khergit Horseman definitely.
Knights = Swadian knights, definitely.
Middle horseman = sarranid horseman or Swadian man-at-arms (the latter being more of a lancer)
Heavy horseman = Swadian knight or vaegir knight.
Paviser = Rhodok Sharpshooters, absolutely.
Berserker = This is definitely one of the nordic troops, warrior veteran or nord Huscarl, just gotta give em a big ass 2 hander and the stats to use em, take their armor off etc etc.
Varegue = nords again, just leave armor on.
Poacher = Forest Bandit
Great Game/Monster Hunter = I think you will have to manually create this one, I cannot think of any troops that fit this description.
 
Thank you so much MickDick, this is exactly what I was looking for. It will really speed things up.
I was thinking of the poacher as a really basic "naked" archer. Forest bandit would fit very well, but it would require another tech, maybe something like forest knowledge, or banditry, along archer and light armor.
Great Game/Monster Hunter = I think you will have to manually create this one, I cannot think of any troops that fit this description.
Sure, I was thinking of heavy leather/powerful bow/throwing spear/short pole arm spear. The guys that go hunting the nastiest old vicious boars or wolves or bears, not your average rabbit...

However thank you again.

As a notice, the mod is ongoing, feel free to discuss some subjects, propose ideas and so on. But yall will possibly get a clearer view once the "proof of concept" is released.
 
Beta/proof of concept to grab here:
http://mbwarband.nexusmods.com/mods/5833

Some notice:
- mostly military tech
- only one settlement between Reyvadin and Ichamur
- speed of research points gain is dramatically increased.
- as you learn techs, some others will be harder to learn, or even be impossible to learn altogether. This is a main feature. This way, no two games will ever be the same.


Feel free to comment or suggest.
 
Cernunos said:
Beta/proof of concept to grab here:
http://mbwarband.nexusmods.com/mods/5833

Some notice:
- mostly military tech
- only one settlement between Reyvadin and Ichamur
- speed of research points gain is dramatically increased.
- as you learn techs, some others will be harder to learn, or even be impossible to learn altogether. This is a main feature. This way, no two games will ever be the same.


Feel free to comment or suggest.

'This file has not been published by its authors yet . You cannot look at this file page or download any files relating to this file until the author makes the file available to the public.'

Strausky whyyy
 
Cernunos said:
That's weird, as there has been some downloads already...
very weird, it is working now, I was checking every 5 minutes to see if it changed, took about 25 minutes before I could access.

Of course, when I checked file area, many of the servers have not synced yet, not sure if it's related.
 
I really am liking this so far.

Recruiting builders and such, the third option I think it was, is broken so I cannot give info about this.

I hope that when gaining denars and research points, that message will not pop up nearly as often as it does, I know you said it was increased drastically, so there's that.

Troops trees not implemented yet but the troops are still pretty good especially varegues, will this be changed or will they stay as strong as their and get stronger when trees are finished?

I noticed troops like peltats have shields but I didn't research shields, peasants too.

I research three economies, only making about 50-60 denars a 'turn' so I assume this will be increased a lot, for when you don't get the message of income/research points nearly as often?  Otherwise it's not very useful at all.  Such a small amount.

I hope for random events, make or break situations, where your civilization will come under attack by outside forces, so you have some more investment in this, other than a extra troops and money source as it seems so far, you have to actually protect your civilization, and perhaps other things, that would be really cool.

This is a really great start cannot wait till it's finished man.
 
Thank you so much for this warm feedback.
Recruiting builders and such, the third option I think it was, is broken
Just the foundations of the economy, not intended to be functionnal, yet.
I hope that when gaining denars and research points, that message will not pop up nearly as often as it does, I know you said it was increased drastically, so there's that.
I think of having the economy /research trigger happen every 24 hours.
Troops trees not implemented yet but the troops are still pretty good especially varegues, will this be changed or will they stay as strong as their and get stronger when trees are finished?
Indeed. troops will come in 4 levels: novice, seasoned, veteran, guard. So yes, a guard varegue will be more powerfull than a novice. However, this will need balance, either by adding some required technology, create a needed material feature, or increase cost (denars or number of required recruits...)
I noticed troops like peltats have shields but I didn't research shields, peasants too.
I need to balance the equipment of the troops. However, keep in mind that a technology represent something your civilisation is "famous" for. Peltasts were not famous for their shields, while, imho, roman, hoplites or zulus were...
I research three economies, only making about 50-60 denars a 'turn' so I assume this will be increased a lot, for when you don't get the message of income/research points nearly as often?  Otherwise it's not very useful at all.  Such a small amount.
These technologies won't make it in the end, economy will be much more complex. It was just a few non military techs, for "fun" and diversity's sake :smile:
I hope for random events, make or break situations, where your civilization will come under attack by outside forces, so you have some more investment in this, other than a extra troops and money source as it seems so far, you have to actually protect your civilization, and perhaps other things, that would be really cool.
I will definitely add some. However, I don't plan to build the settlement as a faction. Yet. Just as something that offers you more things to do.

Thank you again :smile:
 
Nice proof of concept so far, not much to say yet apart from a couple of suggestions and small fixes:
Small fixes:
- Legionary is set as archer while poacher is infantry, I guess you could switch those since the poacher needs to be in the group you'd rather have avoiding melee and need to have arrows and bow guaranteed while I noticed you used the script I sent for the legionaries so their javelins are already guaranteed without making them archers (Did the same thing in my mod).

Suggestion:
- Something to consult ingame about the consequences of technologies, what they bring and what they exclude would be nice for future versions, right now I had some excluded and didn't knew why.
- A different recruitment system, I don't say this one is bad and that it can't be balanced but I abused a bit the cataphracts so I have a couple of different ideas to make it more interesting or balanced:
1- Based on the old days of M&B but with a small twist, back in the day you would go to the taverns and recruit troops from the tavern keeper, a trigger would give troops to the tavern keeper until it reached it's maximum. You bought the troops through a dialog that would launch a variant of the exchange menu but you would pay for the troops. Part of the code and dialog is still in Warband and Geoffrey Ashe (irc) posted the complete code.
My idea would be to build on this (I wanted to avoid the dialog and go right to the menu but I had no luck so far), based on the technologies you researched, troops are added to your settlement and you can hire them from there. If troops are added automatically you are less likely to make a full stack of elite troops and you can furthermore add some new techs to upgrade the whole system ( Ex; Military reforms (like Marian reforms) allows you to have a higher number of elite troops added but you have to pay more for them since you will pay for part of the equipment).

2- Rebalance a bit the current system.

3- Diversify the current system with a couple of additional needs to recruit a specific unit (peasant can turn into poacher, lumberjack, peltast ; citizen can turn into legionnaire, hoplite with some facility requirements like a forge/armory ...)

I'm not asking for it in the immediate, I know that it takes time and effort and the mod just begun, it's just a couple of suggestions/considerations for the future. So far the concept is very interesting so I'll keep track of it and I'm considering doing a small submod if I get the time.

Good luck !
 
Thanks a lot for feedback, I really appreciate.
- Legionary is set as archer while poacher is infantry, I guess you could switch those since the poacher needs to be in the group you'd rather have avoiding melee and need to have arrows and bow guaranteed while I noticed you used the script I sent for the legionaries so their javelins are already guaranteed without making them archers (Did the same thing in my mod).
Sure.
Troops really need some fine tuning (like remove the big shields for peltasts, warriors, barbarians, and give them small shields...).
Actually, the whole mod is in its infancy, and need to be tuned.

- Something to consult ingame about the consequences of technologies, what they bring and what they exclude would be nice for future versions, right now I had some excluded and didn't knew why.
I will add descriptions. As for what they exclude, I myself can't tell, it is random, to assure a total replay value. Give it a try, discarded techs are random.

Recruitment is really basic for now, any system can be included, and I agree that it is really unbalanced for now. Maybe add techs for elite troops, increase cost a lot, require many recruits to get one elite warrior, make some stuff necessary to build them (like iron ingots for some troops, or leather, or good wood, whatever. Many things can be done... And the whole system will be deeply interwoven. The release of this beta was really to test the "set aside" feature. I do plan to add many things... A bit like what I did for Rigale. Some of your ideas are really good anyways, and "stick to reality".
 
I will add descriptions. As for what they exclude, I myself can't tell, it is random, to assure a total replay value. Give it a try, discarded techs are random.
Oh, that's a surprise and a very good idea for re-playability.

There's a lot of fishy stuff going on with the troops but not a big problem, seems like the main features of the mod are working well so far, maybe shorten a bit the trigger messages and color code them. Actually I'll have a look at that.


 
Building basics added. How it works:
the player chooses the number of people he wants to turn into builders.
These builders produce work/hours, according to the known techs, and the experience of the builders.
Each project requires a certain number of work/hours to be accomplished.

Builders can gain experience randomly, such becoming more efficient (base, experienced, master).
This probability will increase with some techs.
Some builders will probably die from accidents.

I need to do some code cleaning, and it will be ok.

Next step will be working and producing raw products.
 
Well I voted quite. The whole point of Civilisation is to research technologies and build up economically and culuturally. The military should be important too, but we've seen enough of that in Native and other SP mods.
 
Voted Extreme. In any case, your units don't seem to have equipment. And I noticed a bug that in the Recruit Troops menu, after researching many techs, the "Go Back" option will disappear. So, I counsel you to make 7 Eras:
Ancient Era(Stone Age)->Classical Era->Medieval Era(up to 1350s)->Renaissance(up to 1650s)->Gunpowder Era(Up to 1900)->Modern Era(up to 2000s)->Information Era(2010s)
And 7 pages at recruit: Recruit Ancient/Classical/Medieval/Renaissance/Gunpowder/Modern/Information Troops.
Basically the troops would be:
Ancient:
Warrior(With Stone club or axe)
Hunter(With throwing stone Spears)
Classical:
Shortswordsman(Light Armor, Bronze Helm, Round Shield, Shortsword)
Bowman(Light Armor, Leather Cap, Shortbow&Arrows, Dagger)
Horseman(Light Armor, Bronze Helm, Horse, Small Shield, Spear)
Medieval:
Longswordsman(Half-Plate Armor, Nasal Helm, Kite Shield, Longsword)
Crossbowman(Mail Armor, Kettle Hat, Crossbow&Arrows, Dagger)
Knight(Plate Armor, Weimar Helm, Lance, Longsword, Kite Shield, Barded Horse)
Renaissance:
Pikeman(Plate Armor, Pike, Morion Helm)
Musketman(Half-Plate, Flintlock Musket, Bayonet, Morion Helm)
Cavalry(Half-Plate Armor, Katzbalger, Flintlock Pistol, Horse)
Gunpowder:
Grenadier(Uniform, Hat, Grenades, Rapier)
Line Infantry(Uniform, Hat, Flintlock Rifle, Bayonet)
Dragoon(Uniform, Dragoon Helm, Flintlock Pistol, Rapier, Horse)
Modern:
Anti-Tank Infantry(Camo Outfit, Modern Helm, Anti-Tank)
Assault Infantry(Camo Outfit, Modern Helm, Assault Rifle)
Tank(Enough said)
Information:
Rocket-Launcher(Something like the Russian Veichle of WW2)
Mechanized Infantry(Halftruck Veichle)
Heavy Tank(Enough said)


P.S. You'll need some hard scripts for Modern and Information eras, so include them in the final release only. Scripts Like:
Automatic Rifles(For 1 item only, not for 1 item type, so that it won't be used by flintlocks)
Unique Ammo for item(Anti-tank will be counted as firearm but it will need its own ammo utilizable only by it)
Veichles like Tanks, Rocket-Launch Veichles and Halftrucks(for mechanized infantry)

I will think of cultural-specific units later though... Now I need to go.

Good luck!
 
ThaneWulfgharn said:

I like these ideas, but in a game that is focused on the medieval period I don't think many of them would work. IMO, you should stick the medieval and renaissance era.
 
@ThaneWulfgharn
thanks for playing the mod, and thoroughly reporting.
However, you are missing the point of this game. My civ is not about era, but I owuld like it to be a tribute to the incredible diversity of civilisations and cultures, pre gunpowder. Think zulus, mayans, aztecs, almogovares, spartans, romans, gauls, native americans, chinese, huns, franks, vikings, hundred years war english or french, macedonians, neandertals, aborigenes... What made these civilisations so distinct and great ?
The point is not to reach a top era, but to try to build your very own civilisation.

However, the mod is on hold. I love history, not so much economy, and I don't have that many ideas to make a complex economy.
 
You would need to do some heavy rewriting if you actually want to affect the games economy. If you do however just wish to single out a specific fief or set of fiefs things become easier. While i have focused on the entire economy, you may still be able to gain some inspiration from this: http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,271635.0.html
 
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