Wow...a lot of responses overnight. I just want to say that my points were for the most common situation in Bannerlord where we find ourselves in close combat with a spear. Yes, Icaurs, a spear can be used with the forearm support method, but that is again largely for formation tactics. Alone, a spearman would not use this method as it limits the method of attack to a single forward thrust. Holding at the point of balance, the wielder can change the angle of attack in order to capitalize on openings. I was not saying that it isn't possible to thrust from the position you described, just that it was unlikely to be used as such in the situations we find ourselves in when playing the game. Perhaps if we acquire the ability to make proper spear formations they will allow us to change the grip as well. 1 v 1 though, holding at the end would not be advisable. Don't just look at modern videos on the topic, look at the illustrated manuscripts of the time.
My point about pikes was that they were made to be held at maximum distance, but were only used in specific situations using specific methods and would not be used 1 v 1. It simply wouldn't be practical to do so.
Ultimately though, once a battle became 1 v 1, the spearman would go with whatever came naturally to him. How long he lived after that would depend on his personal skill with the method he used, and his opponent's skill with their own weapon. Personally, I think I'd rather have a 2-handed grip with a longer spear and a strap-on buckler if I needed to use a spear in close combat. You'd get reach and control with a little bit of defense. They do need to give more options with the spears though. Personally, I want the option of a downward thrust for use against siege attackers climbing ladders and those trying to break through the inner front gate
I would expect them to be better as well, as would many people. There is a post in the SP Top Feedback & Suggestions pinned thread that has more detail on that matter. I think one of the main issues why you got flack here was due to the example picture being a dismounted unit that appears to be in close melee combat rather than a spear-wall type of situation. There was also nothing illuding to the idea that you were considering a spear vs. a mount, or a mounted character.
I just went back and took another look at the second video you posted HERE. I realized shortly in that he was stating most of my thoughts save the reason for holding the spear at the balance point. But then he said exactly what I was thinking, that his method of holding the spear at the end was only good for fights as a group, not a duel. When fighting as a duel, the mid grip allows a secondary angle of attack, the overhead thrust, which he demonstrates, but doesn't go into any detail on. All of his tactics are based upon group formations and working together with those around you.
Ultimately, I'm thinking that TaleWorlds went with a mid grip to give an extra angle of attack so that it was possible to duel with spears for tournaments. It may have been one of those moments where someone thought their idea was great and had to be implemented, so they forced the issue. To me, I'm currently of the opinion that we should be able to change the handling of the spear to adapt to the situation as it evolves. A long thrust grip for initial contact, then switch to a more stable and quicker mid-range grip once the line breaks and the soldiers are no longer looking out for each other so much as trying to stay alive. Honestly, I'd probably drop my shield at this point and go two-handed with one near the end and the other toward the balance point, sliding with the front hand to alter reach and angle as needed.
For a final note: I admit I initially thought you were a fool for even posting such a ridiculous theory, but I was not taking into account the usual line formation aspect of the weapon (likely due to so many frustrating spear/shield duels in tourneys). I still believe there is a great need for a mid grip due to the extra angle of attack it allows, but the rear grip should be an option as well for formations or when distancing is a must.
Here are a few suggestions I would make to improve spears and make them a more viable option (I will likely read through the spear thread I mentioned above and post them there if they aren't there already):
There are numerous scenarios where both methods of holding a spear would be very useful and neither are being used to their full extent. I look forward to the results of the above-linked spear strength suggestion thread. I also advise Icaurs to link this thread there. If nothing else, it will give the devs and others a deeper look into how spears could/should be utilized to have their full devastating effect via the videos and descriptions linked here. Who knows, maybe they'll even incorporate pikes, or at least braced long spears against cavalry charges... (Hint, hint TaleWorlds)
- For sieges, prior to the enemy setting solid foot on the walls, I would love to have split spear divisions at breaching points that would use a rear grip to drain the liquid from the attackers as the door to the siege towers drop.
- Also for sieges prior to breaching, thrusting downward at the attackers as they attempt to climb the ladders. This would be suicide if done without a shield, but whatever. I can hire more fodder later.
- I would also love to be able to poke a spear through near ground-level arrow slits to see how the archers inside like being poked with pointy sticks.
- Similar to the above, thrusting spears through partially broken gates (also shooting arrows through the cracks).
- There are gaping holes above the inner gates which are currently only minorly useful. Grab some pikes and define death from above. They honestly need to utilize those more. They just kind of sit there at the moment, waiting for some new player (or someone binge playing for 24 hrs or so...) to not pay attention and fall into the meat grinder below during a siege (No, this has not happened to me, but I could envision it happening... the next time I binge play...).
- Depending on the type of spear, they could also have some use in a swiping motion. A long-bladed spear could cut similar to a halberd, though only on exposed areas. They wouldn't have the strength necessary to cleave into armor.
- I would also like to see the possibility of spears/halberds breaking in battle. Heck, all weapons should have a chance to break, leaving the unit forced to use their secondary weapon, which would also have a chance to break, leaving them with the option of running to pick up a fallen weapon or fleeing the battle. Perhaps only managing to pick up a shield and resort to bashing opponents. Wow... I could really run with that thought (This happens in almost every thread where I start to go on tangents...)
We are overthinking a lot, but the main point is that the spears are near useless in anything other than mounted combat which should not be the case. Implementing proper spear usage could change both field battles and sieges immensely forcing a more tactical approach to both. Spears were a very large part of medieval warfare but their portrayal in Bannerlord is marginal at best.I think you people are just overthinking stuff. Im a medieval enthusiast myself but its just for gameplay purposes , nothing more
but the main point is that the spears are near useless in anything other than mounted combat which should not be the case. Implementing proper spear usage could change both field battles and sieges immensely forcing a more tactical approach to both.
... whereas in bannerlord they are... well basically near useless(on foot)
@Icaurs
So after everything we've discussed. I think I found our point of contention. Its in your thread title "holding spears wrong". Which after all out debate. Troops are not holding spears wrong, they are just limited to their full potential. And that should be addressed by the devs to make bannerlord a better combat game.
For a final note: I admit I initially thought you were a fool for even posting such a ridiculous theory, but I was not taking into account the usual line formation aspect of the weapon (likely due to so many frustrating spear/shield duels in tourneys). I still believe there is a great need for a mid grip due to the extra angle of attack it allows, but the rear grip should be an option as well for formations or when distancing is a must.
Which makes them useful only while mounted in field battles and tournaments, and if your goal is to rack up kills in field battles (to gain experience faster, of course... really... don't look at me like that! It's not like I enjoy outperforming the other nobles' entire parties on my own...) there are better options. Making the spear, as it is currently implemented, nearly pointless (Hah!). No offense to those who like using the spear. I acknowledge it's historic value without argument, though I prefer swords myself (If they were to ever *correctly* implement the katana and its variations I will probably scream like a little girl in joy).
i myself love using the spear ... and turn into mighty Achilles.
I do also like swords but ... i never use an axe or mace ... a bow rather than a crossbow.
Im glad we all managed to ascertain exactly what we all meant...
As a side note, id love more customisation options ... and for those customisations to all actually do something.
Not knocking your choices as I would use one as well, to an extent, if they made it function correctly. Also, watch out for arrows and wear thick boots for your mod.
Swords are overused, but that's largely due to them being the main battle weapon for so long. With my note about having a katana the stress would be on them implementing it correctly. A katana has more finesse than a broadsword. It isn't meant to bash against armor hoping to cleave it apart or stab through plate mail (though this has been proven to be possible), it's a slashing weapon that is meant to be quick and take advantage of openings (I own a katana that has been proven capable of slicing six inches deep through the lip of a steel oil drum).
I don't use axes either but I do use maces, mainly for mass prisoner capture to make money or gradually convert to my cause. Always a bow over a crossbow. Crossbows just take too long to reload and battles aren't long enough as it is. Plus maneuverability with a bow is much better (I own a hand made replica English longbow made by a master bowyer who traveled to Europe and read ancient manuscripts in order to get them as authentic as she could right down to the oil combination used on the wood, and a replica Mongolian horse-riders bow made by a friend of hers who she trades with to sell each others' products. That one is resin though since one made with authentic materials starts in the multi-thousand dollar price range).
And it only took us a couple pages of posts and multiple videos to do so! Joking, joking. Anyhow, they should definitely do more damage considering some of them are basically a sword on a stick. Thankfully there are other posts regarding this that have been acknowledged by the moderators at the very least.
Even though it's 1:34 Am and I have to work tomorrow, I felt compelled to check this in-game as my memory of smithing was different. We'll go itemized for this one. The parts do modify the outcome to a small degree individually. I will be using specific examples and the numbers for the stats will be with the slider at minimum and maximum. Note that the stats could change in unexpected ways depending on where you put the slider which I will try to point out. ie: cutting power may be the same on both extremes, but slightly higher 1/3 of the way from the minimum end.
Note: I am going from the default options and swapping them out as I go down the list, which is why the numbers may seem off. Additionally, my smithing skill is nothing to swoon over. It is illustrating that the stats can change a little, sometimes.
The Weapon Head - Jagged Spear head:
The Attachment - Singular Hook Wing:
- Weight: 1.5 - 1.6
- Weapon Reach: 126 - 135
- Thrust speed: 90 - 89
- Thrust Pierce Damage: 30 - 29 - 30
- Handling: 81 - 80
The Shaft - Mahogany Long Spear Shaft:
- Weight: 1.5
- Weapon Reach: 133 - 135
- Thrust Speed: 90
- Thrust Pierce Damage: 30 - 29
- Handling: 81
The Pommel - It Doesn't Matter:
- Weight: 1.7 - 2.1
- Weapon Reach: 183 - 214
- Thrust Speed: 92 - 89
- Thrust Pierce Damage: 33 - 32 - 33
- Handling: 57 - 53
So there is some customization. The longest spear I could make (the longest polearm has a glave head) has these parts:
- None of the pommels currently change any aspect of the polearm, not even the weight. The large Spearhead Pommel weighs the same as no pommel at all even though it takes one steel ingot to add to the weapon.
This results in a spear that has:
- Fine Steel Hewing Spear Head - 84.4
- Eastern Double Spear Wings - 14.3
- Extra Long Mahogany Shaft - 290
- Again the Pommel doesn't matter and currently just wastes material.
You could adjust the stats a bit by playing with the parts, but I only did this to see how long of a spear we could get.
- Weight: 2.2
- Weapon Reach: 292 (this takes into account the position of the hand, not the total length of the spear)
- Thrust Speed: 77
- Thrust Pierce Damage: 33
- Handling: 47
@Icaurs
Did you guys already discuss that there should be a "change grip" button for spears? Just as javelin have a throwing or a melee fighting grip. Spears should have a mid grip and and rear grip for the specific things we were all discussing.
Perhaps if we acquire the ability to make proper spear formations they will allow us to change the grip as well. 1 v 1 though, holding at the end would not be advisable. Don't just look at modern videos on the topic, look at the illustrated manuscripts of the time.
To me, I'm currently of the opinion that we should be able to change the handling of the spear to adapt to the situation as it evolves. A long thrust grip for initial contact, then switch to a more stable and quicker mid-range grip once the line breaks and the soldiers are no longer looking out for each other so much as trying to stay alive. Honestly, I'd probably drop my shield at this point and go two-handed with one near the end and the other toward the balance point, sliding with the front hand to alter reach and angle as needed.
I may actually look into this. I have been meaning to by some more training equipment. I may add this to mu Amazon list.Just letting everyone know here if you wish to do some sparring with spear and shield in real life to get a feel of it the gears are dirt cheap. The most expensive piece would be a proper sports fencing mask. Once you have that, go buy a 2m wooden pole from your local hardware store, and a coldsteel rubber training spearhead and a coldsteel soldier's targe which is in fact a centre gripped large buckler in the same configuration as iron age shields. Thats it you dont need gambison with the rubber spearhead fitted on your spears. If the cold steel targe is not available in your country just get a cheap riot shield from ebay. It's basically a rotella which the bolognese spear and shield treatise was written for.