Wasted Spear Length/ holding spears wrong

Icaurs

Regular
M&BWB
Best answers
0

i think its about time this was addressed. A spears main advantage is that it has alot of reach. So why is every spear held so that alot of spear is behind the player?

as you can see from the masterful artwork i created, everything behind the red line is wasted. this part of the spear serves no purpose, and as you can see when comparing this part of the spear to the blue line, it is just under half the weapon length that is being wasted (minus the spear head)

Spears are not supposed to be held like this. insterad they should be held just after where i drew the green line. the length of usused spear should approximately equal the length of your forearm as this can be used to brace the spear when thrusting. holding a spear with half of the weapon behind you adds a conterbalance to the spear means that its actually harder to control. if someone knocks the spear tip to the side, you now have half the spear spinning out of control behind you.

This is a problem on every spear in the game. even holding a spear twohanded, you still have a ridiculous amount of backspear that has no purpose. this is a problem for long spears as well as short spears. The grips on spears need to be moved further down the spear shaft while leaving only a small amount of backspear. Smaller spears should have next to no backspear and should be held very closely to the back end. (the spear used in the image is the multiplayer khuzait long spear. holding longer spears one handed should have more back spear but still not this much, and holding this long spear twohanded has about the same amount of useless spear which makes no sense)

 
Last edited by a moderator:

Ackdam

Regular
Best answers
0
I'm uncertain if this is a troll post, so I am going to respond as though it is not.

There is a small issue called the point of balance. It is the point on a weapon where the weight on the two ends balances out. Now, spears are a bit difficult in this sense due to, as you say, their main purpose of reach. However, holding a spear where you indicate while in close quarters would put an extreme amount of fatigue on the arm. I challenge you to go find a long stick or branch of equal weight that a hardwood pole of six to eight feet in length would be (around 4 pounds). Then hold the stick where you are indicating for a length of time that a battle would last, say ten minutes (it's a short skirmish). Gravity is going to pull the end farthest from you toward the ground, and you are going to have to fight that in addition to holding the weight of the 'spear'. In addition to this, you are going to have to thrust your spear repeatedly with enough force to pierce armor.

This in mind, holding a spear by the end would be exhausting and wear the soldier out very quickly. In addition to this, there is defense to think of. Attempting to block a strike with the opposite end of the spear, or even attacking, would be a simple matter for the opposition to bat away. It's basic physics that the farther you are from the fulcrum the easier it is to lift a weight. Also, what you state would be the other half spinning about wildly is actually a method of attack as well. If the opponent hits one end away, the wielder can spin the other end around to attack or defend faster than recovering from the force of the deflecting in order to bring the sharpened end back around.

The only time you would want to hold a spear for maximum reach would be for a spear wall, or poking attackers off of ladders during a siege (which should be an option for us). There may be a handful of other situational uses, but not many. Go look up some illustrations on how spears were used, and see if you can find some that illustrate your thoughts. Odds are you won't find any or those you do will be situational.

What you may be thinking of is a pike. A pike is an extremely long spear in the range of ten to twenty feet, sometimes longer. Pikes were not made for a very close range. They were for use against cavalry and infantry, but if the infantry got too close they had secondary weapons. They were used in a group formation so attackers did not have the option of moving around them. Trained troops could assault with them, but the charge would be very slow in order to keep the pikes stable rather than swinging about wildly (as you claim a spear would). Remember that stick? Now hold it like you claim it should be and run with it (try not to drop it or you could injure yourself). It is likely that you would have a difficult time holding the 'point' end steady enough to hit a target.
 

Yangbang

Veteran
WBWF&SVC
Best answers
0
@Icaurs
What in the hell are you on? The other guy responded nicely, I'll speak the other point of view that you must be high as he'll to think that you wield a spear from just that small green zone you drew.

But before I go on too far, I will say that yes. spears held with two hands would be like your picture. One hand in the rear and the other hand placed higher up, but most likely at the same point where you'd hold it if with one hand. (Just like the guy is in the picture)
 

Icaurs

Regular
M&BWB
Best answers
0

just how heavy do you think spears are? can wield probably up to about 8ft of spear in 1 hand, depending on your build and strength, without holding the spear so far away from the end. the amount of spear behind you should be about the size of your forearm as i said before. your forearm helps brace the spear giving it more strength when your thrust it. if the spear is a particularly long 1 handed spear yes you will slowly move up the grip on the weapon, but the amount is ridiculous in bannerlord, unless you are particularly weak you should be able to hold a spear further back than just abit behind the middle.

The idea that if you add more length to a spear that you have to then hold it even further up and closer to the middle is true, but NOT to this extent, else people would just not use spears beyond 6ft. no point adding 2ft of spear, and then holding it 2ft closer to the middle, just use a 6ft spear and hold it at the end(or close to)

Frankly i find all of your points to be either wrong or irrelevant. i shall go through them one by one and explain why.
-Point of balance: yes this is a thing. of course it is easiest to hold something long in the middle(we dont pick up chair by their legs) however we arent picking up chairs, we are going to war. we arent making sure the spear is easiest to lift by sacrificing combat effectiveness. yes itd be lighter to hold in the middle, its also now much less effective.
-Exhaustion from holding spear: not so, holding the spear closer to the back will make it abit heavier and abit more cumbersome than holding it central, but it also gives you longer reach and keeps people wanting to kill you further away, thus keeping you alive. + thrusting spears can be done very fast and in many different directions without exerting so much exhaustion on yourself that you can no longer fight effectively. (side note, whats stamina got to do with this discussion anyway? are you telling me that swinging around great big twohanded axes and falx, and greatswords, and running around in full armour(or no armour) and blocking/ parrying repeatedly while instantly swinging around great big weapons doesnt exhaust you? why should spears be the only thing balanced to consider stamina? .... be serious)
Using the momentum of your spear being knocked away to counter or defend with the rear of the weapon: while this point is true it is completely irrelevant. we cannot do this in game and are instead limited to thrusts, therefore holding the spear closer to the middle so that you have some backend to counter with but cant actually counter with it due to mechanics is pointless. All the methods of attack with the spear that are available to us due to game mechanics would suggest the spear is being held in its optimal position (closer to the back) but rather its being held pretty central for no good reason
-Holding a spear at full reach ideal for group formations: Yes this is true, infact spear and shield is probably the most inneffective combination in duels or other situations where you are 1v1(2handed spear actually fares better in some instances) but this doesnt mean you should hold you spear more central in game. the use of the spear in game is to kill/stop cav and their riders, or use it in support as your teamate engages an enemy, thus holding it closer to the end is ideal for any situation where you would chose a spear (if youre 1v1 with a spear youve probably already lost anyway) in some cases players might use a spear constantly the same way people run about like lunatics with twohanded weapons swinging and then dipping out of range, why cant spears also do this? instead we lose half the weapon length so that massive two handed axes are being swung at us(while being held from the end) and hitting us nearly in the same distance the spear can cover. all because we are sacrificing the length of the spear due to "reasons"
-Pikes?: I know what a pike is, and i dont see your point here, perhaps you could elaborate. i am talking mainly about spears. ill have to look at pikes more closely in game to see if they suffer the same problem, though i know less about pike useage than spear useage, id have to do some research(im an ancient historian, not a historian) though im sure ive seen images of pike formations where one end is braced in the ground and then the row behind holds the pikes forwards as if holding a musket. pikes are two handed only in game though so i reckon they should also not have an excessive amount of backspear (backpike) though as they are alot longer they should have abit more "backspear"

Also to clarify something which might not have been clear. im not saying hold the spear ON the green line, im saying to hold the spear somewhere just AFTER the green line(1 handed) two handed id expect the spear to be held even closer to the end than shown in the demonstration i provided
 

royalpaste

Recruit
Best answers
0
op just go take your broom and stab it like a spear you'll see actually how correct the game is. holding it from the backtip is like pushing a string through a keyhole. yes you can hold it from the back but remember in school how a lever works? when your holding it from so far back from the center of balance a 0.5 lb spear head would feel like 5lb. your wrist would buckle after a few minutes of swinging/stabbing. the video you posted their really just poking each other, in 'actual' battle there would be alot more weight behind the stabs as theyd actually be trying to kill each other.

also with the fulcrum that far back you have very little actual control of the spear head so a light breeze could send it another direction. edit spears are my favorite weapon
and with more pazaz
 
Last edited:

Icaurs

Regular
M&BWB
Best answers
0
Also, considering just how slow 1 handed spear thrusts are in game, youd think they were being held at the back, so actually in game we have slower thrusts as if we are holding from the back but actually we are holding it closer to the middle so its shorter and slower
 

Icaurs

Regular
M&BWB
Best answers
0
op just go take your broom and stab it like a spear you'll see actually how correct the game is. holding it from the backtip is like pushing a string through a keyhole
how about you try it. and brace the spear with your forearm. leave enough backend so that it is just longer than your forearm and youll be fine doing that for ages (if you arent horrendously unfit)

Edit: for a real test, thrust at the same speed that you can in bannerlord. you could do that for hours
 

Icaurs

Regular
M&BWB
Best answers
0
Tested it myself, i could hold the broom right at the very end and thrust it easily 1 handed, faster than you can in bannerlord. though of course my broom isnt 8ft, its 5ft or so which is why i held it at the very end to try and make the test abit more realistic
 

Yangbang

Veteran
WBWF&SVC
Best answers
0
@Icaurs
Gonna drop this here for debating reference. But look at how they use their spears, also consider there is no spear head to add weight at the spear end too.

Also would like to add that in the mock padded dueling video you used. You can clearly see how the spear and shield guy holding the spear way back. Got his spear knocked out of the way a lot and then got stabbed or rushed easily.
 

royalpaste

Recruit
Best answers
0
update spear heads on average were 1lb, so op go strap a 1lb weight to your broom stick and just hold it near the back. my stick is only 4 feet long and it felt like my wrist was about about to pop off, the sticks were killer though hard wood handles could get up to 10lb,soft wood 3lb but were more prone to breaking.
 
Last edited:

k_mitt

Recruit
Best answers
0
Weight is a big issue here.

A real spear, is heavier than a broom stick with foam taped on the end.

Depends on the type of wood used and the type of metal, length of the blade, thickness of the blade. Some spears would be lighter than others.

Holding a broom stick handle on end probably isnt close to the weight of a real spear.
 

Icaurs

Regular
M&BWB
Best answers
0
@Icaurs
Gonna drop this here for debating reference. But look at how they use their spears, also consider there is no spear head to add weight at the spear end too.

Also would like to add that in the mock padded dueling video you used. You can clearly see how the spear and shield guy holding the spear way back. Got his spear knocked out of the way a lot and then got stabbed or rushed easily.
can also see in this video that the fight starts everytime with the sword in range of the spear though, hence why hes shortened up of the shaft of the spear
 

Icaurs

Regular
M&BWB
Best answers
0
update spear heads on average were 1lb, so op go strap a 1lb weight to your broom stick and just hold it near the back. my stick is only 4 feet long and it felt like my wrist was about about to pop off, the sticks were killer though hard wood handles could get up to 10lb,soft wood 3lb but were more prone to breaking.
spears generally weigh between 1 and 2 kg. if u cant thrust a 4ft pole... u serious? wont be sending u into battle
 

BeRzErKeR

Regular
Best answers
0
I agree with the OP - though frankly we don't know a whole lot about historical one-handed spear technique for sure, it seems very unlikely that you would use a spear in combat primarily by holding it at the point of balance. Doing that basically gives up the reach which is the major advantage of a spear over a sword, axe, mace, or other hand weapon; if you have a seven foot spear but you're holding it at the point of balance (which will be slightly forward of the center due to the weight of the spearhead, assuming a non-tapered shaft and no buttspike) you really only have three feet or so of combat length, at which point there's no real reach advantage over any other hand weapon. Then length of a spear is the primary reason you would want to use it over something else, and the primary reason why spears were, historically, so dominant; a formation of shielded spearmen can make it very dangerous for enemies with hand weapons to try and close in, even if they don't have a lot of training.

Now, holding a spear by the very back end may not be correct either, depending on the size of the weapon, but if you're using a seven-foot spear you probably want at least four and a half or five feet of it to be forward of your hand.

EDIT; another thing to consider is that many ancient and medieval spears were specifically built to move the point of balance back, with the addition of counter weighting spikes and/or tapering of the shaft. Greek dory are a good example; the 'lizard-killer' spike on the butt end served that function.
 
Last edited:

Icaurs

Regular
M&BWB
Best answers
0
yeah your just trolling at this point
you dont seem to know much and you cant thrust 4ft without aching. just shush. u asked me to test it, so i did. you then make some BS up about not being able to thrust a 4ft pole? what are you a child? any man or woman can thrust a 4ft pole without aching. unless u went full on retard and tried to do 12 stabs per second with 1 hand
 

Icaurs

Regular
M&BWB
Best answers
0
update spear heads on average were 1lb, so op go strap a 1lb weight to your broom stick and just hold it near the back. my stick is only 4 feet long and it felt like my wrist was about about to pop off, the sticks were killer though hard wood handles could get up to 10lb,soft wood 3lb but were more prone to breaking.
Youre aware that 1lb is like a loaf of bread or a shoe? its not heavy. you put a shoe on the end of a long stick it isnt gunna make you suddenly not be able to thrust it. be serious
 

Icaurs

Regular
M&BWB
Best answers
0
I agree with the OP - though frankly we don't know a whole lot about historical one-handed spear technique for sure, it seems very unlikely that you would use a spear in combat primarily by holding it at the point of balance. Doing that basically gives up the reach which is the major advantage of a spear over a sword, axe, mace, or other hand weapon; if you have a seven foot spear but you're holding it at the point of balance (which will be slightly forward of the center due to the weight of the spearhead, assuming a non-tapered shaft and no buttspike) you really only have three feet or so of combat length, at which point there's no real reach advantage over any other hand weapon. Then length of a spear is the primary reason you would want to use it over something else, and the primary reason why spears were, historically, so dominant; a formation of shielded spearmen can make it very dangerous for enemies with hand weapons to try and close in, even if they don't have a lot of training.

Now, holding a spear by the very back end may not be correct either, depending on the size of the weapon, but if you're using a seven-foot spear you probably want at least four and a half or five feet of it to be forward of your hand.

EDIT; another thing to consider is that many ancient and medieval spears were specifically built to move the point of balance back, with the addition of counter weighting spikes and/or tapering of the shaft. Greek dory are a good example; the 'lizard-killer' spike on the butt end served that function.
holding a spear by the very back 1 handed? no. but holding it so that a forearms worth or so is at the back is fine. + some kind of counterweight and its even easier. Id have though most spears had some kind of counterweight on the back, be it a spike or iron handle or something along those lines. theres no way the spear is meant to be carried in the middle, thats just dumb
 

Jagati Khan

Veteran
WB
Best answers
0
Icarus is correct a spear was not held in the middle but further back and the spear would rest on your under arm giving stability and reducing the load.
@Icarus that image hasn't helped your case though buddy you should edit that to show exactly what you mean.
 

h1zchan

Veteran
Best answers
0
There isn't a single correct way to hold a spear. Its situation specific.

Holdin sper in the middle when used in one hand improves control and prevents your opponent from rushing past your spear tip so it's the preferred way for duelling. You can also flip it to overhand grip to perform downward strikes that are harder to parry. That said if you have a sword it's probably better to use that because holding spear in the middle nullified range advantage. A lot of troops in the 11th century were still armed with spear, shield, small seax and nothing else so to them this grip made sense because despite the shortened reach you still outrange the sidearms.

Holding spear closer to the back increases range at the expense of speed and control and is best used in group fights where your team mates work together to prevent enemy from rushing up close.

When using spear in two hands, the same principle applies. Hold it near the middle for faster parries, close quarter grapples and backend strikes ideal for armored duelling. Hold it near the end for fast long range snipes but slower parries, ideal for group fighting when there's too much chaos going on to attempt a good parry and is also a viable grip in unarmored duelling if you prefer to fight in a more aggressive style.

As far as bannerlord is concerned the best thing to have is probably to be able to shift grip in game. Not sure if thats possible
 
Last edited: