Was thinking about FPS W,A,S,D conventions, and...

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Big J Money

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I was thinking about the W,A,S,D system, and its one major flaw that it prevents you from being aware of what is around you. Part of this is poor sound design (and lack of surround sound) in games; part of it is the narrow angle of view; but another major part of it is that your view is restricted to the direction you are travelling in. It's as if your neck is paralyzed and you must only look forward. This issue has come up a few times in M&B discussion, but that's not why I'm mentioning it here. In fact, this discussion otherwise has nothing to do with M&B. Well, I was trying to think of a way to circumvent the third limitation using the same tools people currently have: a mouse and a keyboard. Imagine being able to glance over your shoulder while playing an FPS. Or, imagine shooting haphazardly at some enemies behind you, while you are running away; such as in the great Death Star Hallway chases with Han Solo in StarWars Episode IV! Here are two ideas I have come up with. If you aren't interested in discussions on gaming mechanics, then this thread isn't for you. This is mainly a thread for those who are interested in that kind of topic and play (or would like to play) First Person Perspective action games. Allow me to define two terms, first. Looking refers to the direction your view is pointed. It does not inherently influence the direction the in-game character will move. Instead, Facing refers to the direction dictating where the character will move. In current FPS games, Looking and Facing are locked together, unless you are in a vehicle or riding a mount. Here are the two models I have come up with:

1) Your mouse doesn't determine which direction you are Facing, only the direction you are Looking. In other words, Looking and Facing are not locked. "Well," you ask, "how do I move, then? What about when I want to change facing and move in a different direction?" You achieve this by double tapping the forward (W) key. This will orient your Facing to become the direction you are currently Looking. Every time you wish to move in another forward direction, you would have to do this.

Pro: This method allows the player to easily look in any direction she wishes while moving according to a straight line facing. It also adds no new keys to the current W,A,S,D system, so very little learning must be done.
Con: Repeatedly having to double tap the W key could get annoying, especially depending on the game. I can see some people frustatingly pounding the W key just to try and react quickly in the middle of an instense action scene.
Arguable: This method allows precise control of your head, almost as if it is mounted on a loose ball bearing. It's realistic in the sense that it obeys your every intention without requiring extra concentration. However, it leaves unaccounted the fact that the neck is most comfortable when its head faces forward. You could also say this method "prefers" free-look, while looking forward is just one angle out of 360.

2) A new button is dedicated to "free look". Free look is simply another name for Looking being detached from Facing. This could be a mouse button or a keyboard key. If it is a keyboard key, it obviously must be something which can be pressed while the middle three fingers retain their usual W,A,S,D control. Releasing this key would "snap back" to forward view, as this seems most obvious, since the purpose of this model is to be able to glance in a given direction, not "re-configure" your neck.

Pro: The classic W,A,S,D remains fully operational.
Con: A new key must be dedicated to this functionality. Further, it must be a key the player can keep depressed while retaining the ability to press other, critical buttons. For example, if you wish to look behind you and fire off a couple shots, you must be able to hold the button down while also being able to press any buttons which pertain to firing your weapon.
Thought: For 5 button mice, the con isn't nearly as harsh, as the 4th or 5th button (usually a thumb button) would be ideal for such a dedication. Maybe in the future, 5 (or more) button gaming mice would become a "required" tool for the FPS enthusiast. This would be much in the same way that joysticks have become necessary for flight sim enthusiasts. A "free look" button could even become a common nick-name.
Arguable: Having to move your view away from "looking forwards" requires more conscious effort, since you must hold down a button to initiate and perform the maneuvre. This could be more natural, however. You might also say this method "prefers" looking forward, while free-look is tertiary.

In both of these models, when changing your Looking, you can't circle the mouse `round and `round, a' la The Excorcist. Once you've gone all the way looking backwards, you must return your view the way you came. Also, in the first model, it might be beneficial to require greater mouse movement (ie. mouse sensitivity becomes less) as the character turns farther and farther backwards, while requiring much less movement, when "snapping" the head back forward. This is to simulate neck and waist resistance, and is supposed to help the character not get too confused which way he is currently looking.

Those two ideas are meant to make use of what tools we use now. I've also brainstormed a few ideas for using a joystick in the left hand and a mouse in the right hand but, truth be told, they aren't any better; even though a joystick allows full 360 degree movement. It would be nice to have, but it doesn't inherently solve the problem being discussed. If anything, it takes away from the amount of buttons available to the left hand of the gamer, which are quite many while she still uses W,A,S,D.

Finally, before anyone brings up the implications of this functionality in Third Person Perspective -- don't. Even though many people use that perspective as an alternative to the faults of 1st person, this discussion is in no way about that. I am trying to discuss alleviating the faults while remaining in 1st person. I am making no implicit statements whatsoever about 3rd person.

=$= Big J Money =$=
 
I remember MechWarrior III, when you control your torso, and your legs, in diferent way.

I remember that one Jedi Knight game too, but only when you are stand. when you move, your legs follow your head.

In MWIII, you control legs with keyboard, the aim with mouse, and when you hold RmB (right mouse button), and move the mouse, you move the torso.
 
Sounds like a plan, but in your second example, how do you actually turn the body? It sounds like you can't, in that example. I probably misunderstood something, though, so please correct me if I'm wrong. :wink:
 
Stonewall382 said:
Sounds like a plan, but in your second example, how do you actually turn the body? It sounds like you can't, in that example. I probably misunderstood something, though, so please correct me if I'm wrong. :wink:

I think you refer to me.

Well, in Jedi Knight, well you only realize that you move the torso only when you are stand, and on third person view. But that Jedi Knight was principaly FPV.
 
No, I'm sorry--I was replying to the first post. My bad.

Edit: Big J, were you ever a member of the TotalWar.com forums? Your name sounds familiar.
 
I don't like either of them much, though I do like the idea of separating 'facing' and 'looking'.

Maybe we haven't found anything good yet, or maybe it's just impossible to create realistic movement with the current keyboard and mouse standard, though I cant even imagine what else we could invent. Some sort of device that straps to your head or neck and tracks your movement? I don't know. But constantly double-tapping 'w' seems really inconvenient, and a button for free-look has been done and tends to be inconvenient as well.

And current movement in games emphasizes so much strafing, which we hardly ever do in real life. But maybe we would if we had guns and were fighting aliens. I don't know, it's been a while. And I guess I wasn't really paying attention to my movement at the time :?
 
Ain't it easier to just, move the mouse to where you want to look and use a combination of the strafe and forward/back keys to move where you want? (current system)... I admit, not realistic and somwhat rigid, but seems the more practical with the equipment the average gamer has. :?

Although some kind of helmet which senses head movement to turn your view would be awesome... pair it up with some glasses that have tiny LCD monitors in em and you've got some neat VR... I think it already exists though. :wink:

Now if you combine that VR helmet (to aim and look with your head), a Mouse to change facing, and a keyboard to change movement... nice. 8)

Only thing better would be a holodeck :roll:

EDIT
And yes that Headgear that senses head movement exists already, I'll search for it again, seen it around a few times.
 
But if the head sensor thing already exists, why isn't anyone using it?

And where is it?

I demand one of those eye-things the guy in Star Trek wore, not another stupid hollywood-bust that won't be played or remembered in a month! Damn gaming corporations :x
 
Only $150? That's not so bad...

Btw, in M&B, it's possible to "turn your head" without moving facing. Next time you reload a crossbow, move the mouse around without pushing the ASWD buttons.
Also, if you use the tilldale (~), and look at yourself, and then release, the view stays the same way (right?) until you click--maybe that could be expanded on?
 
Wow, those look like crap, but I just creamed my pants anyways. I'm sure if mainstream videogame systems started implementing things like those, they would be much cheaper and more available.

Sigh

Oh well, I guess we'll just have to wait 3-5 years for PS 4/XBOX 3/Nintendo 5/Mass Conformity Corporation 7
 
Yep, stonewall is right, the feature is there, only need a better way to access it...

Garth: Well, those are like the 'prototypes' give it a few years, that kind of stuff is practically new tech.

EDIT
Somewhere I saw someone was working on a virtual glove (think its already used in robotics for control of arms). Wouldn't it be awesome that instead of using your standard clicker mouse, to use a virtual glove to hold your weapons, pull the triggers, swing the sword? even change your weapon by tapping the place on your body where that weapon would be, say, tap the right side of your body to select a pistol or sword, and the shoulder for your rifle.

Ahhh, sweet VR dreams :roll:
 
Gah, stop it! I'm running out of kleenex tissues/potential babies!

Can the glove, for instance, register the diameter and circumfrence of the hilt and then lock your fingers in that shape so you can grip it, and when you let go, your character drops the weapon...


Wha..

No...

Great. There go my chances of fertility for the next week :(
 
These headsets are not new and they are actually getting fairly common.

Check out http://www.naturalpoint.com/,

They make two of the best systems there are ... they are mostly used just for flight sims at the moment because few FPS games enable seperate threads between where you are facing and the direction you are moving in.

That is way Off-Topic though, as Big $ is trying to find an alternative using the tools that most gamers already have (keyboard and mouse).
 
Oh sry for the Off Topic, thought we were discussing the possibility of different game mechanics.

And yeah, primarily used for Flight sims cause most (if not all) FPS games relate direction of movement with your viewpoint, that can change though :wink:
 
Flaming Eyes said:
I remember MechWarrior III, when you control your torso, and your legs, in diferent way.

Yes, I played MWII, and MWIV (I think it was IV). If I remember correctly, MWII was actually the first game in the series! It was based off of the PnP RPG by the same name, and I think that's why. Anyway, their method was okay, but it wasn't too great. It simulated Mech Combat very well, but it would be far too clunky for a true FPS game. It would be comparable to my method #1 above, but, instead of double tapping the FORWARD key to align Facing to Looking, they used a special button to do so. I think it was the Insert key or something.

Flaming Eyes said:
I remember that one Jedi Knight game too, but only when you are stand. when you move, your legs follow your head.

Now this was simply a graphical convenience. A lot of games use it, actually. Star Wars Galaxies uses it too, and I'm pretty sure EQII is another title. It doesn't actually separate Facing from Looking, though, it only appears to from a spectator's POV.

Stonewall382 said:
Sounds like a plan, but in your second example, how do you actually turn the body? It sounds like you can't, in that example. I probably misunderstood something, though, so please correct me if I'm wrong. :wink:

In my second example, things work just like they normally do: Facing and Looking are locked until you press the special "Free Look" button. For example, if it were in M&B, you might use it in the middle of a sword fight to glance over your shoulder for a split second to make sure there is nobody coming up behind you -- while still backpedalling.

[Edit: Oh yeah, I am from TotalWar. I am from pretty much everywhere. I have this sick idea that using the same user-name in every forum I frequent will one day earn me the status of "Internet Celebrity". If not that, I'll settle for "Annoying Twerp". If not that, I'll settle for "Ninja".]

Garth said:
I don't like either of them much, though I do like the idea of separating 'facing' and 'looking' ... and a button for free-look has been done and tends to be inconvenient as well.

You've got me a bit curious. What game do you recall that tried this? I'd like to see if I can't get my hands on a copy. The only games I've played (and I've played loads of FPS action games) that did something even close -- but not close enough to count -- would be the Pilot-free-look in BF1942, or free look modes while otherwise riding some kind of vehicle. I have yet to come across an FPS that actually allowed you to glance in directions other than the one you are heading in, but I'd like to try one. My hunch is that learning to do so would be no harder than learning to strafe was when I switched from Wolfenstein to Doom.

Garth said:
And current movement in games emphasizes so much strafing, which we hardly ever do in real life. But maybe we would if we had guns and were fighting aliens. I don't know, it's been a while. And I guess I wasn't really paying attention to my movement at the time :?

Haha. Dude, you did SOOO much strafing. You were circle strafing like a little Kaola bear. I agree. I think strafing is an over used thing. Some recent FPSes have done pretty well with this, however. Strafing and backpedaling speed are drastically reduced where you simply cannot abuse them any more. Strafing then becomes used where it should be, to pop out from corners while facing the direction you'd like to shoot. Actually, if you think about it, what games should do is slow the strafe down to where it's useless unless also used with a "sprint" key. For two reasons: 1) Nobody could keep up that mad-sideways skipping forever, and 2) Weapon accuracy during the maneuvre should be subject to the penalties of sprinting, anyway. I remember doing this drill in HS basketball. We would get in the defensive stance, and basically skip sideways as fast as we could. You could dodge some gun-fire that way, but you sure as heck couldn't fire back. What would be nicer, and even allow better animation, is if you could sprint forward to your destination while being able to turn and take some pot-shots off to the side. And that, my friend, is what model #2 would allow you to do. Again, I'd really like to play a game that allows you to do this, because I think it's worth a try.

I also want to lodge a serious complaint in ID Software's direction. Calling the move "strafe" in the first place was stupid. Strafing might be a good name for the entire maneuvre as you run past your enemy and rake gun fire at them, but the actualy sideways movement doesn't inherently have anything to do with strafing at all.

=$= Big J Money =$=
 
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