Was Hitler a good leader?

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Skot the Sanguine said:
Tiberius Decimus Maximus said:
Archonsod said:
also, Britain has a longer standing rivalry with France.
Which we'd been allied with for over a century at that point. And Britain doesn't; England has a rivalry with France. Scotland and Ireland are long standing allies of France. France was also lucky enough to be on the right side during WWI, unlike Germany.

Well going along that road, wasn't Japan and Britain allied for a while, until the end of WWI?

Yes, Japan was part of the Allies in order to snatch up ex-German colonies.  Germany owned land in China, New Guinea, and even the island where the famous Rabaul airfield was located was originally German (though the latter went to Australia I believe).  The Sea of Bismark is named such for a reason :smile:

Then there was Tsingtao.
 
Of course he wasn't.  He was directly responsible for so many deaths, German and otherwise, and total destruction of the country.  I don't know if highways and people's car make up for the terrible loss of life and property (both projects were actually of minimal value back then, the highways remained unused and the 'people' didn't get to the drive the people's car).

He was a lousy politician as well, it's quite obvious from what happened isn't it?  He was a good crowd manipulator with a certain amount of charisma and the ability to arouse the most basic instincts in human beings.  Drang nach Osten becomes Drang nach Westen, 25% of the population dead, major cities destroyed completely, country split in half, are these the trademarks of a good leader?  The guy was a rabid madman, completely shortsighted.  The only good thing that can be attributed to him is the fact that he did pull Germany out of a deep recession, and restored their pride.  Although I'm not sure if that was really difficult considering the fact that this recession was a direct result of the policies of the French and British after WWI.

So, hmm, I have arrived at the conclusion that it was, in fact, the Britsh, French and Americans that created the need for Hitler.  The bastard was just a scapegoat and in way over his head while the true morons were the people responsible for the restrictions placed on Germany after WWI.

His paintings are not so terrible, I thought they would be a lot worse.  He should have stuck to painting, I'm sure many German ladies would enjoy his paintings in their kitchens right along with those linen things with proverbs on them (someone has to know what I'm talking about).
 
Omzdog said:
Ya so...
Stalin was a good politician to be able to do all these things and the World never actually fully noticed.
Hail! Glorious exploitation by example comrades!

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Fail.
 
othr said:
Of course he wasn't.  He was directly responsible for so many deaths, German and otherwise, and total destruction of the country.  I don't know if highways and people's car make up for the terrible loss of life and property (both projects were actually of minimal value back then, the highways remained unused and the 'people' didn't get to the drive the people's car).

He was a lousy politician as well, it's quite obvious from what happened isn't it?  He was a good crowd manipulator with a certain amount of charisma and the ability to arouse the most basic instincts in human beings.  Drang nach Osten becomes Drang nach Westen, 25% of the population dead, major cities destroyed completely, country split in half, are these the trademarks of a good leader?  The guy was a rabid madman, completely shortsighted.  The only good thing that can be attributed to him is the fact that he did pull Germany out of a deep recession, and restored their pride.  Although I'm not sure if that was really difficult considering the fact that this recession was a direct result of the policies of the French and British after WWI.

So, hmm, I have arrived at the conclusion that it was, in fact, the Britsh, French and Americans that created the need for Hitler.  The bastard was just a scapegoat and in way over his head while the true morons were the people responsible for the restrictions placed on Germany after WWI.

His paintings are not so terrible, I thought they would be a lot worse.  He should have stuck to painting, I'm sure many German ladies would enjoy his paintings in their kitchens right along with those linen things with proverbs on them (someone has to know what I'm talking about).

Alexander the Great shattered one of the greatest civilizations in history, embarked on genocidal campaigns against any tribes or nations who resisted him, burned down arguably the grandest palace city in the world in a fit of drunkenness, and died without setting up any order of succession. Hell, the few friends he had who could have legitimately succeeded him were largely executed due to Alexander's paranoia. So he left the Mid-East to near endless wars, leaving hundreds of thousands to die as the Diadochi warred with each other for petty territorial exchanges. But he is remembered as "The Great". Why? Because he won. Winning is the sole mark of a good leader in the eyes of history, and Hitler ended up on the wrong end of the stick, as the entirety of the world turned onto the shores and fronts of Europe.

*EDIT*

Please note I'm not arguing that Hitler was a good person, however.
 
Urlik said:
Britain was still friendly with Italy and Japan until May and July 1940 respectively.
things could have been very different if Britain had been more inclined to stay friendly with them instead of staying friendly with France, Poland, the Netherlands and Belgium then the War in Europe would have been over in 1939.

You mean staying friendly with Japan after they invaded British held islands including Hong Kong? I'm fine with tweaking history a little here and there, but that seems to be a little excessive.

even if France, the Netherlands and Belgium had stayed at war with Germany, they would have had a much harder time of it and Germany would have been able to occupy them quite easily.

And tie up a lot of military resources needed for Barbarossa before the Red army is able to recover from the purge.

without Britain as a base to launch an attack against Germany through France and without North Africa as a base to launch an attack against Italy, WW2 would have been won by Germany within a couple of years.

While this much is true, they could always back door through the USSR, or the Middle East. Japan isn't going to be as much of a problem since the US would probably devote its entire military industries towards eliminating them instead of splitting it up between two fronts.

Britain would still have been friendly with Japan so Japan would have been able to forget South East Asia as they would have been getting supplies and support from the British colonies and they could then concentrate on China and eventually the USSR.

Japan did not have any long term plans with Britain. Even if Britain were to go so far as to ally with Germany, I don't think the Japanese would have stopped their advances into British held territory. The pacts between Germany, Italy, and Japan were not full military alliances, at most they are very politely and friendly worded treaties.

Britain would still have been friendly with Italy so instead of a war in North Africa, Italy could have attacked the USSR through the Balkans.

Like that went so well the first time. The problem with the Italian army is not one of a lack of numbers, but rather of morale, leadership, organization, and their ability to supply themselves away from their home soil. Similar to Archonsod's sentiment, I don't think the British expeditionary forces would have surrendered like De Gaulle and his French forces.

it is doubtful that the USSR could have stood against the combined force of Germany, Italy and Japan, and as even Churchill shared many of Hitler's views on the USSR, it is quite probable that Britain would have joined in against them as well.

The more forces Hitler seems to have under his control, the more objective he seems to point out on the map in order to divide his forces. I don't think the Germans would have reached Moscow, taken Leningrad, nor taken Stalingrad, nor transversed the Caucasus and seized the oil fields with the substandard divisions any of its allies (barring Japanese) helping them. Their supply lines made it almost impossible to effectively move supplies up to the front, the trains rails were of a different type between Russia and the rest of Europe. Whatever allies divisions Germany could field, they would come up against the obstacle of supplying them all. There simply isn't enough oil to do that while upholding military operations at the same time once you get stopped by the Winter of 1941.
If the German high command had been left to its own devices, and own planning and choosing of objectives, Herr Manstein believed that they could have won an agreeable treaty, or at least fought the Soviets to a stalemate, but with Hitler in the command bunker that became impossible.

with all that territory available to provide resources and no real threat on the doorstep for any of the Axis countries, the USA would not have stood a chance once the USSR fell.

The resources and territory the Germans captured was far from ideal. Western Europe wasn't exactly resource resource rich compared to South East Asia with their rubber and the Middle East with their oil. What little there was in steel production in France was not put to direct use for the war effort. Hitler for the most part did not want to instigate a war time economy. The only time he did was when the Allies were bombing them.
 
EdwardWellcraft said:
Tiberius, even if you use winning as the mark of a good leader, then Hitler is still a bad leader, since he lost.  :wink:

In the eyes of history, yes. But then, that is a general statement (no pun intended). For example, Hannibal (people with names that start with 'H' just get screwed over). He may have been defeated, and for... 500 years? He was pretty much the epitome of evil to Rome. Only later did people really begin to recognize him for his military genius, and not for his 'barbarianism'.
 
I don't know what you're mumbling about, Hannibal, 'H', Hitler, eh?  Why don't you look to the stars for an answer?

The Romans knew very well that Hannibal was a gifted general and this is why they starved him to death instead of giving him battle.  Hitler was neither a gifted tactician nor a skillful politician, and that's pretty clear from what happened, you don't have to be a genius to figure that out.  He had **** for allies, Croats, Hungarians and Slovaks  :shock:?  Italians didn't really give a **** and eventually he ended up occupying them too.  All his attempts at diplomacy failed, except his pact with Molotov to backstab Poland in 1939.
 
othr said:
The Romans knew very well that Hannibal was a gifted general and this is why they starved him to death instead of giving him battle. 

Yes, Quintus Fabius Maximus "Cunctator" was clever enough to use this strategy for some time, and we know how overconfident Varro and Paulus ended up abandoning this and go for fight. But they still had to defeat him in one decisive battle, at Zama (on the African soil). Scipio proven himself very good tactician too and managed to defeat Hannibal in a regular battle.
 
othr said:
He had **** for allies, Croats, Hungarians and Slovaks  :shock:?  Italians didn't really give a **** and eventually he ended up occupying them too.  All his attempts at diplomacy failed, except his pact with Molotov to backstab Poland in 1939.

But they would be adeguate to the task that Hitler wanted. Just look at the winter war result: if Finland could do that, just imagine Germany+Hungary+Slovakia+Romania. And Italy? They have 150000 soldiers in North Africa and they surrender to the 36000 of the UK. On the paper Hitler's allies were perfect: good enough to do the task and not to good to pretend a bigger piece of cake.
 
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