kevinflemming
Knight
Just checking-in. Any news with what is going on? It's been a while since I last looked.
- Thread starter Nameless Warrior
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Knight
merikallio
Sergeant
Got some ideas for lore-friendly and roleplaying style campaigns:
1. Play beastmen warlord named Khazrak the One Eyed (I know one already exists in the mod). Never become a vassal nor posses any fiefs. Stay hostile to everyone - fight, loot and make your warband stronger and stronger. Campaign is won when You capture Middenheim and take Boris Todbringer prisoner at the same time.
2. Play as mercenary captain (possibly only human). Never become a vassal or ruler, signing contract with Empire or Kislev instead. Only mercenaries are allowed to recruit, either from taverns or prisoners rescued!!! As a top tier units You can hire ogres as many as You like. Always try to answer for a marshall call.
1. Play beastmen warlord named Khazrak the One Eyed (I know one already exists in the mod). Never become a vassal nor posses any fiefs. Stay hostile to everyone - fight, loot and make your warband stronger and stronger. Campaign is won when You capture Middenheim and take Boris Todbringer prisoner at the same time.
2. Play as mercenary captain (possibly only human). Never become a vassal or ruler, signing contract with Empire or Kislev instead. Only mercenaries are allowed to recruit, either from taverns or prisoners rescued!!! As a top tier units You can hire ogres as many as You like. Always try to answer for a marshall call.
![[ptx]](/data/avatars/m/48/48782.jpg?1579545094){kind=avatar}
gsanders
Grandmaster Knight
Oldtimer said:
This is a native issue that Diplomacy silently patched. However now the only females are player (can be human female) or some female lords and a few human female troops/companions. Elf females and their derivatives are gone. I'd like to have players able to marry opposite lords (heck since daughters are missing no reason not to have same sex requests for marriage, but that is strictly Nameless' call), as it might be useful for roleplay. There exist some female lords but they will seem like fathers if not handled carefully; its no longer so important as there are no daughters to ask to marry. It does simplify Orc and Skaven factions. Since diplomacy has not yet been merged it remains to be seen what changes after that happens, and when there is news I'm sure Polloio will mention it.
Its not my place to discuss anything regarding what I did or how long it needs, but certainly I won't take ALL summer.
Other than that, its done when its done.
The player can still be a female elf and the witch elf lines are also using the same skin. With courtship gone there is no more good female elves around.
Arsakes said:
The mod was displaying the wrong messages in the bottom corner throughout the game. For example when a non aggression pact was made a debug message came up and in battle instead of saying 'you will get x renown for this battle' it always said 'it's a trap'. About 3/4 of all the messages were wrong which made the mod unplayable. Funny you should mention it though as I finally fixed it yesterday.
vertinox
Recruit
I have a question... And this might not be possible due to the whole GW IP and attack lawyers...
But have you considered putting this project on Github and having a stable and hot version?
I've been play a lot more mods now that have hot versions between months of stable updates. Of course sometimes the hot version will not be playable until a major bug is fixed. But since it says "unstable. download at your own risk." you can't complain.
And since it's on github anyone can branch it and make a fix to the branch version and the authors can decide if they just want to include the fix back in the hot version ( or reject it and just roll their own).
I used to be opposed to github for my own things, but now... I'm just damn. I don't know how I handled versioning with my php and mod projects.
But have you considered putting this project on Github and having a stable and hot version?
I've been play a lot more mods now that have hot versions between months of stable updates. Of course sometimes the hot version will not be playable until a major bug is fixed. But since it says "unstable. download at your own risk." you can't complain.
And since it's on github anyone can branch it and make a fix to the branch version and the authors can decide if they just want to include the fix back in the hot version ( or reject it and just roll their own).
I used to be opposed to github for my own things, but now... I'm just damn. I don't know how I handled versioning with my php and mod projects.
kevinflemming
Knight
It's better to keep it in one place, and as under the radar as possible. The more you spread it around, the chances increase of somebody official catching it.vertinox said:
Well actually the team posted a new update a few days ago on moddb, in which they say that they're aiming for a mid to late August release. Since they usually don't mention dates if they're not sure, I'm going to assume it means a September release at worst, barring some unforeseen issues.
Peyrit
Recruit
Hello, it might already have been asked/answered but, well, I haven't found anything about it so I decided to register and ask by myself :
My brother and I both discovered this mod a few days ago and were enjoying it a lot, but I noticed something strange : the diplomacy don't change anymore. The skavens, my faction, are at war against the wood elves and the bretonnians from the near-beginning of the game, I tried to "trigger" something by attacking the High Elves, but even after I took two castles, no changes, High Elves and Skavens remains in peace, and skavens seeks a truce with bretonnian and wood elves for now 140 in-game days. The diplomacy seems "stuck" for all the factions. I think I remember that at the start of my game with the skavens some diplomacy movements occured, but if it does it stopped a while ago, now. Same goes for my brother, who haven't witnessed a diplomacy change for a while.
I saw an old post about a fix for an "eternal peace" bug, changing a 384 to a 24 on the simple_triggers.txt, I searched for it but haven't found any 384 on a first line of my simple_triggers.txt. So, I would have liked reading this full post but it's 1088 pages to read, and, well, it's like finding a needle in haystack.
It seems to have occured to someone else, he made a post on reddit a year ago, but someone stated that "in warhammer lore's diplomacy don't change" and the subject was closed. Yeah, no, I mean diplomacy DO change in warhammer lore, so it's a bug, I think. If someone have a solution I would be thankful, it is really frustrating not to have diplomacy movements, while the mod is awesome...
My brother and I both discovered this mod a few days ago and were enjoying it a lot, but I noticed something strange : the diplomacy don't change anymore. The skavens, my faction, are at war against the wood elves and the bretonnians from the near-beginning of the game, I tried to "trigger" something by attacking the High Elves, but even after I took two castles, no changes, High Elves and Skavens remains in peace, and skavens seeks a truce with bretonnian and wood elves for now 140 in-game days. The diplomacy seems "stuck" for all the factions. I think I remember that at the start of my game with the skavens some diplomacy movements occured, but if it does it stopped a while ago, now. Same goes for my brother, who haven't witnessed a diplomacy change for a while.
I saw an old post about a fix for an "eternal peace" bug, changing a 384 to a 24 on the simple_triggers.txt, I searched for it but haven't found any 384 on a first line of my simple_triggers.txt. So, I would have liked reading this full post but it's 1088 pages to read, and, well, it's like finding a needle in haystack.
It seems to have occured to someone else, he made a post on reddit a year ago, but someone stated that "in warhammer lore's diplomacy don't change" and the subject was closed. Yeah, no, I mean diplomacy DO change in warhammer lore, so it's a bug, I think. If someone have a solution I would be thankful, it is really frustrating not to have diplomacy movements, while the mod is awesome...
gsanders
Grandmaster Knight
Wait a month and you'll have a new version that can do exactly what you ask. Its being built now, as in running for the first time last night, and the 30,000 to 50,000 blocks of code changed need about a month for Nameless Warrior to integrate to Warsword Conquest. I used the code base I developed for Phantasy Calradia's rebuild "Phantasy 2018" as a base, which was built from Somebody's Diplomacy 4.1 Almost none of the code is in the same sequence between the three mods, making a merge needlessly complex compared to adding diplomacy mod to native, where the two align a little easier. This was exactly why Phantasy Calradia gave up on Diplomacy some years ago, although Guspav made things easier for me by re-ordering his modsys (source) to follow the sequence Native used, so he could at least try to put Diplomacy in. It cut the amount of time needed by about 3 times.
You just wanted to see factions attack each other, and that was done as early as August 2016 with my completely experimental technical proof of concept submod "Warsword Rigale", in the Rigale mod section. But instead of charging ahead and using that, the Rigale part of it had enough problems that the workarounds needed to recover dialogs after battle meant forced camping after fights, which takes away the natural game flow. This time there are no Rigale elements at all, plus the Diplomacy source is cleaner, having learned from what didn't work well in Phantasy 2018.
I get that you're frustrated with waiting 2 years, and in fact I spent a full year working monday to friday full time (40 hours per week) on Phantasy 2018 in order to build the code base needed for this merge, started about a month ago. I ran it for the first time 2 days ago and again last night. But the sheer number of places that have to be double-checked by Nameless Warrior means a part time laborer will need many weeks to finish review. Thus the 1 month from now guess.
- GS
---------
On a different note, and to reduce extra posts, I wanted to share what exactly goes into building/rebuilding this mod and why it takes so long.
I read all the reviews, from 1/10 to 10/10 at Moddb and noted the dates of each review, and many times got messages like "so immersion breaking that there isn't different dialogs for chaos lords or skaven, or all the bandits have the same generic response..." The problem here is the sheer amount of time needed to even find the right spot to modify, and what exactly needs to be added/changed/changed in the sequence it is placed within the module that the change belongs in (which matters for dialogs, as the first matching case is either taken (by an NPC talking TO the player) or presented as one of many choices in a list given to the player to select from. We'll get to that in a moment.
First, where to find it? Assuming at best 2 hours a day for unpaid volunteer efforts after a busy and difficult workday, the average review of code takes about 1 hour per 1000 to 3000 lines reviewed/skimmed/glanced at briefly to even know if it has much of anything to do with what we are searching to locate. This is the brute force method, and all I had to go from my first months at Perisno a few years ago. A more clever coder notices all the script names and such are indexed in the ID_* files made, and could hope the name of each script is unambiguous enough to decide exactly what that section does and go straight there. With dialogs it is much more difficult. (And) With things that happen in time for example, it is common enough practice to fold 3-4 different activities onto the same timer, and the timers aren't named so there isnt an index made for them, so they have to be searched by brute force. How many lines are there?
(somewhere around 318,166 lines, using a search for "modmerger" to mark the end of each file).
There are more lines than this, but each other add-in is 2000 lines or less and most of them don't need touching.
Some sections are more work than others. Getting back to the example of "make the skaven dialogs more squeeky or I must give it a 5 at best",
it's quite a bit of work just to have the generic dialogs not crash and burn, especially when instead of 6 fundamental types of bandits (one per faction, else the bandit camp quest must hang), we now have 18 factions and thus must define 18 arbitrary types of bandits. Every place each of those parties MIGHT have unique replies to the player in dialog implies 18 different responses, each testing for that party_template and only answering when a match is found, followed by a general case reply when none of the other replies were found FIRST, starting from the first line of the file and dropping down. If there is no general case given or the tests for specific bandit types simply don't have one of those newly defined party_template entries in the test, the dialog hangs. A hard hang is a game ending event; close the mod and restart it. More than a few of those in a session and players will be quite unsympathetic, especially when it was "years" for an update. After all, it seems like a simple enough change was asked, wasn't it?
I usually imagine a gang of monkeys armed with typewriters can unerringly deliver the complete works of Shakespeare, unabridged* (* = "given sufficient time" (and "allowed to start over a nearly infinite tries" - 1)). I'm not the nicest monkey in the bush, but at least I have been available to do the work, at many mods. I find there isn't enough time to do all I'd like. Most people under-estimate the amount of time needed to make a mod, and reckon if they just had the source they could bang out changes darn near overnight. This may be true. But most likely they won't be much faster than I was, and I had to pretty much drop out of everything, family, work, school, you name it, to even bang out some half arsed mods. Doubtless someone else would have done them better, but they were too busy raking in piles of cash programming business models or java script for websites to horse around with modsys script as defined by Taleworlds. Taleworlds scripting is exactly useless for getting a job, regardless of the odd success story you hear on the forums. But if you can think outside the box and implement it with script here, you MIGHT be able to do something else in the "real world", with a little more effort. This is like grade school for developers, and even it seems difficult for most. Everything is a little under-documented, despite at least 10 years of helpful posts by the community. BanterLord tm (much talked about and seldom seen) might indeed be the finest thing since sliced bread built sandwiches, but until it gets into my hot little hands its useless to me. I expect it will take a good long time to build enough OSP code and assets necessary to make a mod like Warsword Conquest.
PSS: here's the snippet to search for in module_dialogs. It's at line 43560 in last week's code, and since moved a bit...
You just wanted to see factions attack each other, and that was done as early as August 2016 with my completely experimental technical proof of concept submod "Warsword Rigale", in the Rigale mod section. But instead of charging ahead and using that, the Rigale part of it had enough problems that the workarounds needed to recover dialogs after battle meant forced camping after fights, which takes away the natural game flow. This time there are no Rigale elements at all, plus the Diplomacy source is cleaner, having learned from what didn't work well in Phantasy 2018.
I get that you're frustrated with waiting 2 years, and in fact I spent a full year working monday to friday full time (40 hours per week) on Phantasy 2018 in order to build the code base needed for this merge, started about a month ago. I ran it for the first time 2 days ago and again last night. But the sheer number of places that have to be double-checked by Nameless Warrior means a part time laborer will need many weeks to finish review. Thus the 1 month from now guess.
- GS
---------
On a different note, and to reduce extra posts, I wanted to share what exactly goes into building/rebuilding this mod and why it takes so long.
I read all the reviews, from 1/10 to 10/10 at Moddb and noted the dates of each review, and many times got messages like "so immersion breaking that there isn't different dialogs for chaos lords or skaven, or all the bandits have the same generic response..." The problem here is the sheer amount of time needed to even find the right spot to modify, and what exactly needs to be added/changed/changed in the sequence it is placed within the module that the change belongs in (which matters for dialogs, as the first matching case is either taken (by an NPC talking TO the player) or presented as one of many choices in a list given to the player to select from. We'll get to that in a moment.
First, where to find it? Assuming at best 2 hours a day for unpaid volunteer efforts after a busy and difficult workday, the average review of code takes about 1 hour per 1000 to 3000 lines reviewed/skimmed/glanced at briefly to even know if it has much of anything to do with what we are searching to locate. This is the brute force method, and all I had to go from my first months at Perisno a few years ago. A more clever coder notices all the script names and such are indexed in the ID_* files made, and could hope the name of each script is unambiguous enough to decide exactly what that section does and go straight there. With dialogs it is much more difficult. (And) With things that happen in time for example, it is common enough practice to fold 3-4 different activities onto the same timer, and the timers aren't named so there isnt an index made for them, so they have to be searched by brute force. How many lines are there?
Code:
module_dialogs = 45909
module_game_menus = 34780
module_items = 15325
module_mission_templates= 25043
module_particle_systems = 3327
module_presentations = 17001
module_scripts = 141399
module_simple_triggers = 10062
module_strings = 8378
module_triggers = 1811
module_troops = 5622
PBOD (all components) = 9509There are more lines than this, but each other add-in is 2000 lines or less and most of them don't need touching.
Some sections are more work than others. Getting back to the example of "make the skaven dialogs more squeeky or I must give it a 5 at best",
it's quite a bit of work just to have the generic dialogs not crash and burn, especially when instead of 6 fundamental types of bandits (one per faction, else the bandit camp quest must hang), we now have 18 factions and thus must define 18 arbitrary types of bandits. Every place each of those parties MIGHT have unique replies to the player in dialog implies 18 different responses, each testing for that party_template and only answering when a match is found, followed by a general case reply when none of the other replies were found FIRST, starting from the first line of the file and dropping down. If there is no general case given or the tests for specific bandit types simply don't have one of those newly defined party_template entries in the test, the dialog hangs. A hard hang is a game ending event; close the mod and restart it. More than a few of those in a session and players will be quite unsympathetic, especially when it was "years" for an update. After all, it seems like a simple enough change was asked, wasn't it?
I usually imagine a gang of monkeys armed with typewriters can unerringly deliver the complete works of Shakespeare, unabridged* (* = "given sufficient time" (and "allowed to start over a nearly infinite tries" - 1)). I'm not the nicest monkey in the bush, but at least I have been available to do the work, at many mods. I find there isn't enough time to do all I'd like. Most people under-estimate the amount of time needed to make a mod, and reckon if they just had the source they could bang out changes darn near overnight. This may be true. But most likely they won't be much faster than I was, and I had to pretty much drop out of everything, family, work, school, you name it, to even bang out some half arsed mods. Doubtless someone else would have done them better, but they were too busy raking in piles of cash programming business models or java script for websites to horse around with modsys script as defined by Taleworlds. Taleworlds scripting is exactly useless for getting a job, regardless of the odd success story you hear on the forums. But if you can think outside the box and implement it with script here, you MIGHT be able to do something else in the "real world", with a little more effort. This is like grade school for developers, and even it seems difficult for most. Everything is a little under-documented, despite at least 10 years of helpful posts by the community. BanterLord tm (much talked about and seldom seen) might indeed be the finest thing since sliced bread built sandwiches, but until it gets into my hot little hands its useless to me. I expect it will take a good long time to build enough OSP code and assets necessary to make a mod like Warsword Conquest.
PSS: here's the snippet to search for in module_dialogs. It's at line 43560 in last week's code, and since moved a bit...
Code:
[party_tpl|pt_forest_bandits|auto_proceed,"start", [(eq,"$talk_context",tc_party_encounter),(encountered_party_is_attacker)],
"{!}Warning: This line should never display.", "bandit_introduce",[]],
[party_tpl|pt_taiga_bandits|auto_proceed,"start", [(eq,"$talk_context",tc_party_encounter),(encountered_party_is_attacker)],
"{!}Warning: This line should never display.", "bandit_introduce",[]],
[party_tpl|pt_steppe_bandits|auto_proceed,"start", [(eq,"$talk_context",tc_party_encounter),(encountered_party_is_attacker)],
"{!}Warning: This line should never display.", "bandit_introduce",[]],
[anyone,"bandit_introduce", [
(store_random_in_range, ":rand", 11, 15),
(str_store_string, s11, "@I can smell a fat purse a mile away. Methinks yours could do with some lightening, eh?"),
(str_store_string, s12, "@Why, it be another traveller, chance met upon the road! I should warn you, country here's a mite dangerous for a good {reg33?woman:fellow} like you. But for a small donation my boys and I'll make sure you get rightways to your destination, eh?"),
(str_store_string, s13, "@Well well, look at this! You'd best start coughing up some silver, friend, or me and my boys'll have to break you."),
(str_store_string, s14, "@There's a toll for passin' through this land, payable to us, so if you don't mind we'll just be collectin' our due from your purse..."),
(str_store_string_reg, s5, ":rand"),
], "{s5}", "bandit_talk",[(play_sound,"snd_encounter_bandits")]],
[anyone|plyr,"bandit_talk", [], "I'll give you nothing but cold steel, you scum!", "close_window",[[encounter_attack]]],
[anyone|plyr,"bandit_talk", [], "There's no need to fight. I can pay for free passage.", "bandit_barter",[]],
