[W6C] Warband 6-aSide Cup

[Roberto_Italiano]

This thread I dedicate to the incident on Warden vs Atlas match.

So going from the start, everything was going as planned, we started to play 1st set.
When score was 1-1 (Atlas won the round, thus they had bonus gold), troll joined their team and started teamkilling them.
We banned him and (I think I asked) if they want to restart the map and keep score 1-1, they agreed so we proceeded.
So 1st set ended with score 3-1 for Wardens.

Then we go to the 2nd set. A guy named FTW_Vernon joins. As we earier got incident with troll I tried to make sure he is accepted to watch the match as you can see on screenshot:

Spoiler: Vernon joins

I was assured he wont disturb so I didnt kick him, yet again when the score was 1-1 after Atlas won round he joined and started to teamkill. We stopped the match to talk what to do know as this **** happened again, we changed password and took the server off the public list. After 20 minutes of talking or maybe more we called Vincent to get to some conclusion as Atlas wanted to restart whole match which we didnt have time for. We proposed to start the 2nd set over again and give them a free round (they kill us so get gold and one round for free) which should compensate ( before troll score was 1-1 they had gold lead).

Admin which I called, that is Vincent said that he thinks its fair proposition and I saw on chat that Atlas player/players say they agree. So we restarted the map and gave away the round. What I learned after match is that Neena didnt agree for that, she wrote that on warband chat, which was full of messages of other players and I couldnt keep track of everything, and she didnt pm me on steam or anything, the game just went on and I didnt know about this. So then we won 12-5 and thats all from our perspective.

If somebody thinks it was unfair or we did wrong we are free to judge but I leave the decision to admins cause we believe we did everything to keep match fair. If you would want to start match over again on 1st set then sure why not, but later then we lost too much time and we couldnt finish match in time. And playing match on Sunday didnt seem like a good option too because we had no idea if we could gather people for the match.

If anything about the match was unfair it could only be 1st set,
on which you agreed to continue playing from score 1-1.
Even if we now would play again the 1st set and you would won 3-0 we still win 9-7. The 2nd set we gave away one round for free so its even better than the situation before troll which was 1-1 and you got gold, compared to gold + 1-0 score.

As I said on beggining I encourage Neena to speek her and her team perspective, but we believe we did all we could to make match fair, and from chat log it can be proven I followed the rules from beggining.

Wardens leader, Roberto Italiano

 

[Tallie]

Make a rematch happen on a private server, with a random name so no trolls can join.

 

[Roberto_Italiano]

I think you dont understand what I said Tallie. We dont want rematch because we played fair. Set 1 was continued with their agreement. Set 2 resetted whole with a better advantage than before incident, and set 3 and 4 without any interruption. I dont remember any proposition to change the date and make rematch when we were playing, only after we won. There was proposition from Neena to play again whole match back then, but we didnt have so much time so we didnt agree, thus we called admin to seek option for both teams.

The only way we would want play rematch is when admins will decide so, as their decision will be undebatable, otherwise we stand by what we said.

 

[V1ncent]

I also think the outcome has been reached in a fair manner. As you point out the second set has been replayed in its entirety (giving Atlas the gold bonus by letting them win the first round) and won by Wardens which alone in combination with the second map would result in Wardens winning the whole match. Restarting the first set on 1-1 was probably not ideal, but it leveled the playing field in a way that didn't give any team a clear advantage. I know the whole situation is very unfortunate, but I think the match outcome is valid as it stands. That's my opinion.

 

[Neena]

I would like to thank you for publishing this issue to share our views - it is generous.

To begin with, I confirm what Roberto had written about how it happened - but I disagree with some points.
First of all, Roberto brought Karatak who is their friend to watch us - he had put him as a streamer and I warned that it was impossible for him to be the streamer. There were other people I didn't know who were watching.

There, a guy who is probably a Turkish guy came into our team to teamkill us in a very unexpected way on our first win. Of course, one of you permanently banished him. Of course I couldn't write to Roberto for many reasons: the first thing was that it was already live after we redid the map.
At that point, I said yes but also, I said "wait" at one point because I realized something was wrong - our equipment and gold was lost and I would have to tell Roberto. But I think Roberto skipped that sentence and just kept on acting as if it was nothing. We were more or less upset and even bothered about losing what we had and we all thought it was unfair to remap the map when I had specifically said a "Wait" because the second point is that I was going to call an admin to be able to solve this.

Then, well, we had continued because we thought we could catch up without arguing so as to avoid slackening the time. The first set went unfairly for us and fairly and victoriously for Warden.

In the second set, we played as if nothing had happened but we were still upset about the fact that it had to happen to us and not to Warden so in my opinion, the feeling was totally different between the two teams at that time. We started the second set without worries and tried to forget what happened at the beginning.
Unfortunately, we had to go through the same situation a second time at Atlas after we had won a round against Warden.
That's when the controversy started to get worse. Roberto and Arglaxx went to contact an admin (Vincent) to come and solve this problem which was unbearable for us and which was nothing at all for Warden. So obviously, the feeling of injustice was getting higher and higher. From then on, the members of each team probably started to spam the discussion. Roberto and Vincent discussed Warden's proposal and agreed to the idea, while I still haven't confirmed it and few of us agreed. The majority of us wanted to have a rematch at another date or even redo everything at the same time. Some agreed but the majority were in favour of postponing the game. Unfortunately, I got the wind and from somewhere, Warden decided to redo the set while I absolutely did not agree.

Although it started to go live very quickly, the first thing that was extremely different was the equipment and the gold as we were North and would have to have the same equipment (hence we were missing the Awlpike as we had taken after winning the first round in the second set). I obviously tried to talk to Roberto in the middle of live but all he told me was to talk later - of course it was a bad idea. [ I have the proof, but if I have to put it on, I won't hesitate and then I'll send it to you. ]

For both sets, I didn't give any agreement to do it again since for the first and second set, the players talked but it was done without the agreement of the other team leader.

I tried to summarize what was not easy but I will be brief: the first set and the second set were done in a very unbalanced way and without taking into account my decision. Because I suppose that the organization for all this has to take into account the decisions of two leaders, am I wrong?

The last two sets (the third and the fourth) are done in a very fair way and I'm sorry but Atlas agrees with my point of view since they saw that I didn't give any agreement and since I asked them to wait.

It's really not the question that Warden won and we want to do the match again but we ask for a rematch for many reasons: misunderstandings, lack of discussions, agreements made without having the opinion of the other, equipment lost as expected despite the gold given which was not very fairplay, the fact that it was necessary to arrive to the Atlas team and only to her to get demoralized by being taken by several people after winning a round as the feelings must be very different in front.

--

 

[Neena]

I also think the outcome has been reached in a fair manner. As you point out the second set has been replayed in its entirety (giving Atlas the gold bonus by letting them win the first round) and won by Wardens which alone in combination with the second map would result in Wardens winning the whole match. Restarting the first set on 1-1 was probably not ideal, but it leveled the playing field in a way that didn't give any team a clear advantage. I know the whole situation is very unfortunate, but I think the match outcome is valid as it stands. That's my opinion.

To answer Vincent, I don't think you understand the difference - as we were North, which is a very weak faction, and we've lost the advantage heavily since we didn't have Awlpike on us. In fact, you gave this agreement without asking my opinion and you immediately applied Warden's proposal on the other side while I was discussing with my members what was better. So I don't think the first set and the second set were done in a fair way. We, Atlas, ask to rematch the first and second set as planned.

 

[Tallie]

The teamkilling happened after Atlas won a round and with that won gold and gained an advantage. Banning the guy and restarting completely removes the advantage Atlas had, especially the snow balling effect as Swadia.

The outcome would've been different in both occasions, hence you don't want a rematch, which I completely understand, but is very unsportmanship like and for me unexpected as I thought it was a friendly and fun tournament willing to give everyone a fair chance (currently not to Atlas).

As I hosted several tournaments and counselled alot of tournaments myself, I'd make a rematch happen. I'm not biased in this sense because I joined Atlas 2 days ago and I have friends in both teams, but IMO this would be the best option.

Thanks for hearing me out.

 

[V1ncent]

The teamkilling happened after Atlas won a round and with that won gold and gained an advantage. Banning the guy and restarting completely removes the advantage Atlas had, especially the snow balling effect as Swadia.

The outcome would've been different in both occasions, hence you don't want a rematch, which I completely understand, but is very unsportmanship like and for me unexpected as I thought it was a friendly and fun tournament willing to give everyone a fair chance (currently not to Atlas).

As I hosted several tournaments and counselled alot of tournaments myself, I'd make a rematch happen. I'm not biased in this sense because I joined Atlas 2 days ago and I have friends in both teams, but IMO this would be the best option.

Thanks for hearing me out.

On the second set the restart happened after Atlas was allowed to kill the entire enemy team and gain a gold advantage at 1-0 up. In the first set this advantage was not granted since no admin was present but the set was restarted at a score of 1-1 with no advantage for either team (and admittedly also without the gold bonus for Atlas). If Wardens agree I personally dont mind a rematch of the first two sets if it's in the next couple of days, but I don't think it is particularily fair to them considering none of this is their fault either and the match was very one-sided in their favour.

 

[Roberto_Italiano]

First of all, Roberto brought Karatak who is their friend to watch us - he had put him as a streamer and I warned that it was impossible for him to be the streamer.

Well, I didnt brought Karatak, he isnt in our team cause he plays mostly Bannerlord now, but indeed he is our friend and he often comes to watch our matches and I agree this was my bad, I interpretated the rules wrong, thought that after agreement from both teams a person can spectate the game (which in my head meant see the whole fight, not only from 1 locked place as all of people from team on spect should do) however I revoked the streamer as soon as you pointed that out, because it indeed might be taken as he would help us, which he didnt.

There were other people I didn't know who were watching.

Beside Karatak which you agreed to let him spect, and besides team members, there was only the troll on spect that wasnt known to anyone. I didnt ban him, cause I thought he came to spect and I agreed for anyone to spect, plus didnt saw you to ask about who this is so I thought its ok for him to spect. So it was both mine and your fault as clan leaders with admin pass, that we didnt kick him/ban him right away.

Of course I couldn't write to Roberto for many reasons: the first thing was that it was already live after we redid the map.
At that point, I said yes but also, I said "wait" at one point because I realized something was wrong - our equipment and gold was lost and I would have to tell Roberto. But I think Roberto skipped that sentence and just kept on acting as if it was nothing.

This is something that is still strange to me. Firstly, after troll teamkilled you wrote on chat to restart, i said "okay, score 1-1", to which you replied "yes 1-1", and after about 8 seconds later you wrote "but wait" which I didnt see cause after the yes message I focused on restarting the map and talking to the team. After restart there were only few messages and then chat was clear. You didnt say nothing on chat, not wait, not stop, not "no live", you didnt pm me on steam which I replied you instantly if you wrote to me, you just started playing like you are ok with this, and I wasnt aware that you dont agree with that. You simply wrote wait, and then nothing. I didnt see it and knew nothing.

We were more or less upset and even bothered about losing what we had and we all thought it was unfair to remap the map when I had specifically said a "Wait" because the second point is that I was going to call an admin to be able to solve this.

As said earlier, you could just tell on chat that actually you dont want to restart map from 1-1 score but something other. Nothing was said, at the end of the round after restart you said that the match become unfair. I did all I could, but without any word from you, again I didnt know you want to change the way it went.

Then, well, we had continued because we thought we could catch up without arguing so as to avoid slackening the time. The first set went unfairly for us and fairly and victoriously for Warden.

Correct me if Im wrong, but what I understand by this is that you didnt asked for reset from beggining because you thought you still get good score on that set, which didnt happen so later you called that this set was totally unfair. If you would won that set, then it would be no problem right?

In the second set, we played as if nothing had happened but we were still upset about the fact that it had to happen to us and not to Warden so in my opinion, the feeling was totally different between the two teams at that time

You say it like you know what we feel. Of course the match already had a negative feeling due to troll. We wish he would never come and interrupt the match. We were angry that this type of thing happens on an official match. But again this is the blame on me and you Neena, we were the admins on the match, and we didnt kick him/ban him right away. That's for sure lesson to me to change pass on official and give it only to all players and people who wish to spect and get agreement from both teams.

which was unbearable for us and which was nothing at all for Warden

Again, why you write it was nothing for us. It impacts us aswell, cause of course we didnt continue the match, and gave you recompensate later, which was same or even better for you. The incident with troll impacts both teams.

Roberto and Vincent discussed Warden's proposal and agreed to the idea, while I still haven't confirmed it and few of us agreed. The majority of us wanted to have a rematch at another date or even redo everything at the same time. Some agreed but the majority were in favour of postponing the game. Unfortunately, I got the wind and from somewhere, Warden decided to redo the set while I absolutely did not agree.

Our first propositions were same as on the 1st set, that is to restart the set, but from 0-0 (if somebody is wondering, I wouldnt hesitate to do the same if it happened to my team, for me getting gold on 3ppl who were alive, thus got money on next round is minor advantage compared to getting awlpike on nord cav which I will adress too, but I respect that most people think otherwise). You wanted to restart the whole match from beggining and make both teams kill eachother so the score will be 1-1 and we end up with the situation after Atlas won. However we didnt have time for that, to start the match again from this point. And as I watch replay from my player Papsad, I see no proposition on postponing match back then on set 2, which at that time would make sense. I got that type of proposition from Neena after the whole match was done. I tried to make things faster, maybe it was bad, but we had other things to do too, so we tried to move on. After proposition with restart map from 1-0 and you get gold, flavberg responed with agreement. No objection or anything. So we proceeded. The one thing I agree is if you got awlpike from us before the troll joined you should get it again. We didnt know you should get it, as noone from you said it. It would be no problem to make it happen.

I obviously tried to talk to Roberto in the middle of live but all he told me was to talk later - of course it was a bad idea. [ I have the proof, but if I have to put it on, I won't hesitate and then I'll send it to you. ]

No prob, I can post it. You can post everything from our chat as I have nothing to hide.

Spoiler: Steam chat

[sobota, 21:55]
[Warden] Roberto Italiano:
?

[sobota, 21:55]
Neena:
A guy entering to tk us
made us all in bad mood

[sobota, 21:55]
[Warden] Roberto Italiano:
ah
okay play
we will talk later

The match went live, so I said to you play, we will talk later, cause if I kept chatting with you, it would disturb you playing. If you wanted to say that you didnt agree for the solution we did, you could just say it. I said what I said to not be a reason you could lose this round.

For both sets, I didn't give any agreement to do it again since for the first and second set, the players talked but it was done without the agreement of the other team leader.

Explained higher


Tl;dr On 1st set Neena said 3 messages "Yes" and after couple of second "but", "wait", where I saw only 1st and started to reset the map, and wasnt informed after the reset that she didnt agree. On 2nd set it happened again and after long talk Atlas player said they agree, Neena didnt say it, neither she negated it, again I got no information from her that she didnt agree on that.
We didnt want to restart the game on 2nd set cause we didnt have that much time to end the match, and as far as I know noone proposed to postpone the match which would be OK for us at that time. From our view it looked like that you agreed after everything to play the whole match and after you lost, you say that actually you want to play it whole again, so why actually play the match till the end on the first date then.

The outcome would've been different in both occasions, hence you don't want a rematch, which I completely understand, but is very unsportmanship like and for me unexpected as I thought it was a friendly and fun tournament willing to give everyone a fair chance (currently not to Atlas).

That being said, on 2nd set after we gave round for free, we still won 3-1, but its not the subject of the debate. We dont want a rematch because that we won, but because instead of postponing the match when we were on 2nd set, they want to postpone the match after it was played till the end. I see nothing unsportsmanship in our behavior towards the whole situation. We treat it like friendly and fun tournament, we are willing to give everyone a fair chance, but if our opponents make decisions which they regret later, why we have to take consequences of that.

Wardens Leader, Roberto Italiano

 

[V1ncent]

As you can see in the Div B - Groupstage thread, there will not be a rematch.