viking spatha tested on various things

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Well, as far my studies go (not so far, so I'm not sure :razz: ) i thought that late medieval swords were actually designed to "chop" rather then cut against heavy mail...I'm not referring to plate at all, cause that is only true for a later two-handed sword. Still they sure don't cut but are more used as blunt, to stun mostly. And its true that is not a case that the swords we're speaking of are so "thinner" towards the point...they were used more to trust then slashing.
As i said I'm no expert anyway, correct me if I'm wrong  :smile:
 
GodHandApostole 说:
Well, as far my studies go (not so far, so I'm not sure :razz: ) i thought that late medieval swords were actually designed to "chop" rather then cut against heavy mail...I'm not referring to plate at all, cause that is only true for a later two-handed sword. Still they sure don't cut but are more used as blunt, to stun mostly. And its true that is not a case that the swords we're speaking of are so "thinner" towards the point...they were used more to trust then slashing.
As i said I'm no expert anyway, correct me if I'm wrong  :smile:
Actually, it's quite the opposite. As armour became better and more prevalent, swords evolved from broad bladed cutting instruments to narrow, stiff thrusting blades.
 
from what i've read, viking swords were pattern welded.

if you want to be anal, you should probably use the words the vikings used for swords:
hjálmroðull, hjorr, mækir and sverð.

these probably refer to different types of viking swords too, as there are a few different types, with both different blade length, and single or double edge.
towards the end of the viking age, the swords became longer, by as much as 20cm.
so i'd like to differentiate between the later swords, and the earlier more spatha-like swords.
 
GodHandApostole 说:
Well, as far my studies go (not so far, so I'm not sure :razz: ) i thought that late medieval swords were actually designed to "chop" rather then cut against heavy mail...I'm not referring to plate at all, cause that is only true for a later two-handed sword. Still they sure don't cut but are more used as blunt, to stun mostly. And its true that is not a case that the swords we're speaking of are so "thinner" towards the point...they were used more to trust then slashing.
As i said I'm no expert anyway, correct me if I'm wrong  :smile:

Chopping bladed weapons were already in use a millenia before armor. They were called "axes".

Swords are for cut and thrust. No chopping.
 
fisheye 说:
Chopping bladed weapons were already in use a millenia before armor. They were called "axes".

Swords are for cut and thrust. No chopping.
"cut" is a confusing term. There are two ways to "cut":

1) chop, or hack - that is when the blade edge is pushed into the surface to be cut. The blade is moving in a direction perpendicular to its edge. The blade has to have some initial momentum before contact or this becomes very ineffective.

2) Slice - that is when the blade is moving ALONG the surface, in a direction parallel to its edge. A blade can slice by placing it against the surface, with zero initial velocity and then pulled quickly along the surface.

In practice you get a little of both. An axe has more of the 1st component while a sword usually relies more on the 2nd. War axes had narrow heads (more like a broad blade than a wedge) and were extremely sharp and able to slice, though the main function was chop.
 
Kissaki 说:
GodHandApostole 说:
Well, as far my studies go (not so far, so I'm not sure :razz: ) i thought that late medieval swords were actually designed to "chop" rather then cut against heavy mail...I'm not referring to plate at all, cause that is only true for a later two-handed sword. Still they sure don't cut but are more used as blunt, to stun mostly. And its true that is not a case that the swords we're speaking of are so "thinner" towards the point...they were used more to trust then slashing.
As i said I'm no expert anyway, correct me if I'm wrong  :smile:
Actually, it's quite the opposite. As armour became better and more prevalent, swords evolved from broad bladed cutting instruments to narrow, stiff thrusting blades.

On top of that, I'm also under the impression that most swords outside of chopping blades (machetes, etc) are inefficient as bludgeoning tools, due to the relative lack of mass on the striking point of the weapon, so designing a sword to stun an armored opponent seems rather silly. This isn't to say that a sword can't be used to stun an armored foe (I'm sure there are techniques that teach you to whap the enemy over the heat with the pommel or similar).
 
13 Spider Bloody Chain 说:
On top of that, I'm also under the impression that most swords outside of chopping blades (machetes, etc) are inefficient as bludgeoning tools, due to the relative lack of mass on the striking point of the weapon, so designing a sword to stun an armored opponent seems rather silly. This isn't to say that a sword can't be used to stun an armored foe (I'm sure there are techniques that teach you to whap the enemy over the heat with the pommel or similar).
This is true, and thanks for reminding me. Swords designed for cutting are usually quite flexible, and in slow motion you can see the blade wobble unless the cut was absolutely perfect. This flexibility prevents, to some degree, the blade from taking a set bend from a bad cut. But there is also the fact that thin edges cut better than thick edges, and though you could certainly make a leaf-thin blade stiff as well, it would be very fragile as a result. Cutting swords can be quite thick next to the hilt, but they taper.

It is true that the katana has very little to virtually no distal taper, and is as such a very stiff weapon. The overall thickness isn't more than European swords, but it is certainly thicker around the business section. The point of balance is still the same, however, because the habaki, tsuba and tsuka is heavier compared to blade length than European swords. Partly because the nakago (tang) is comparatively bigger. Because of its thickness and stiffness throughout, it is an excellent thruster. It would be a worse cutter as a compromise if not for the curve and the excessive sharpness that polishers insist on. There are European swords that rival the katana's cutting power, and out-perform it too, I shouldn't wonder, but because there are so many more sword types found in Europe, it is really unfair to compare katana with "Euro swords", because then you would have to decide which Euro sword.

I suspect that one reason why the katana gets away with minimal distal taper, however, is its length. It is generally shorter than European longswords, and European sword blades of similar length are usually fitted to single hand grips. You do have the Odachi in Japan as well, which is the equivalent of the European greatsword. However, I have no idea how these feel, and I'm not even sure if they have distal taper or not.
 
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