Tingyun said:
unity100 said:
Countless kings, king wannabees, warlords, have come and passed, some have been successful, some not. And a year's timeframe is not even far fetched for that.
Then name 3 historical examples from dark ages europe of someone rising from unknown peasant to powerful king in a year's time.
It didn't happen.
You mentioned you didnt want to discuss, yet you seem to continue. I dont have any intention, but out of courtesy and for potential benefit of those who may be interested in history, i will reply one last time.
Foremost, i advise you to do more reading in history, lest you wont need to risk your argument by doing grandstanding statements like 'it didnt happen'.
Merely the incident of great heathen army is enough to demonstrate the reality of what you are objecting, and contest various of your earlier arguments:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Heathen_Army
Great heathen army was led by 3 nobodies history has not heard before, who had no titles to mention, other than later claims to be related to an earlier viking named Ragnar, whom historians today think to possibly not have existed. It was common to claim descendancy from famous figures to get followers or assert claims in those days anyway. And as almost every norsemen in Scandinavia was at that date, they would be farmer/warriors, or raider/warriors of equal status with anyone else - since they were not able to even claim any minor nobility or kingship even at their time or in their inflated sagas.
They promptly beat and executed numerous anglo saxon kings, conquered numerous regions, including major cities like York, multiple times. From their landing in east anglia to their conquest of york, barely a year passed. Other cities followed in quick succession, along with anglo saxon kings being captured and killed swiftly.
At the moment they got York, they were already a kingdom and a faction by the game's terms - MB, Brytenwalda, or VC, whichever you pick. So this is more than demonstrative of what you object. However it goes far beyond that.
From among these 3 previously unknown nobodies leading this army, Ivar the boneless...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivar_the_Boneless
...was not only hated, but also had a genetic disorder which caused him to be physically feeble and ridiculed for this in his time. Not only that, but also it was a noticeably important genetic disorder that affected bone structure and joins, as you will find out if you check out the reference.
Sagas praise his wisdom, intelligence and other traits. He was the person who demanded York, or according to a younger legend, London for his own from the anglosaxon kings. Its not that they had the power to object, since they already had it, but for terms for peace, not unlike in the game.
He is considered the founder of the dynasty that ruled Northumbria for ~100 years from York. He is also considered identical to the King of Dublin, Ivar, in which he becomes its king at the point he leaves the army.
So basically this previously unknown nobody had not only organized a great heathen army, possibly as his principal leader, but also ended up as a king according to our games' terms within a year.
Then there is Halfdan...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halfdan_Ragnarsson
... who is the commander of the army after Ivar left, and who invades Wessex, and captures London. Not withstanding being effective king of Northumbria, he also tries to claim Ivar's Kingdom of Dublin after Ivar's death, and gets killed while battling with earlier Norsemen who settled in Dublin area. So he got two kingdom to his name, or, if you would prefer to be precise, one kingdom and one claim to his name at the point he died.
The last leader of the army after him, Guthrum, who is another nobody other than being a warlord who came from nowhere, has become de facto king of entire Danelaw.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guthrum
I wouldnt need to tell what Danelaw signifies to any average reader of history.
However...
The most significant part of this entire deal is that that entire 'Great' heathen army is estimated to be no more than ~1000 people today. So it took an army of ~1000 collected, assorted men, under the leadership of ~3-4 previously unknown nobodies which kept changing, to bring norse rule to entire north england and even parts of Ireland, leave aside creating petty kings ruling over small kingdom-lets like in Wales.
.............
This example itself is descriptive and easily researchable enough, but reading to actual early dark ages like the times of Brytenwalda, one can easily see a worse quagmire which is indeed accurately portrayed by the Brytenwalda mold. When anybody could claim to be somebody and rise with enough wit, cunning or reputation, even through lying. The historical record of the period even shows a king in north britain who has a Gaelic name but claimed to have descended from Odin.
There are cultures and time periods where there have been metoric rises. There are a decent number of examples that involved large-scale peasant revolutions (ie, Imperial China), or a powerful institution (ie, the Roman Army). Dark Ages Europe didn't have much of that, and frankly, even in those cases the climb took many, many years--nothing at all like the timeframe of Warband.
Your perception of kingdom, king, empire seems to be quite out of place for the time period. Time period of Brytenwalda or VC have nothing to do with any of these. Some small strong armed warlord owning a small city or town could name himself a king, and he would be a king. For it was the power of owning, which made a king.
Precisely the lack of any institution is what enabled such kingdoms and such kings.
And as to your specific argument on farmers rising to that status - aside from the fact that almost every norseman raiding around were farmers or traders of equal status, who returned to their earlier professions after raiding even, what separates a farmer of a place like Britain and Scandinavia was nothing more than the earlier being prevented from military training (until Alfred I, at least), expensive equipment which they couldnt afford, and a measure of bravery. Simply because it doesnt take too much training to hack at people with an axe and show a shield to protect yourself, or push people in a shield wall with a spear due to the backwardness of dark age technology.
................
In any case, this is long historical talk, and i dont have time or desire to impart large chunks of information. I recommend doing more reading on the history of that time period, especially the lives of ordinary people, and staying away from grand-standing accounts of 'magnificient kings', which were merely strongmen with an axe/sword and a shield who happened to be among a few hundred other strongmen like themselves.
I wont participate in further discussion, so good evening to you...