Viking Conquest Reforged Edition Female Char Power Gaming Guide(minor spoilers)

kalarhan

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Tingyun said:
both unrealistic, but in very fun ways.
that is why talking about "realistic" or "unrealistic" is silly. Just look at the discussions on Bannerlord threads lol.

to me it is a simple question: does this makes sense to me or not? If it does not, then it is a exploit (bad design, limit of the AI, bug that was never fixed, etc) and so I will simple avoid it. Like you mentioned above, it is a way of setting in-house rules for your sandbox.

a example from Warband that was plugged in VC RE: recruitment of prisoners (it was severly limited on the DLC, as it simple broke the entire design of non-elite armies by the devs). That feature, common used on Native to easily form a elite army, simple did not fit with the VC design. Of course it was a point of contention with the community, as any nerf.

mods are more free to experiment with balance and alternative features. The "official" games suffer from Native-expectation. Look at feedback that games like Caribbean, VC and MBFS got when they tried to change core features (or nerf them) from Native (even when said features made no sense in the context of the new game), simple because the new format was breaking what people expect of a MB title.

That is why modding VC, as a example, is fun. You can do stuff your way, forget about what people expect (you are not worried about TW feedback or sells)  :grin:
 

Tingyun

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Yes, what I have been arguing throughout is realism from the perspective of the player, not true realism. Really we should call it versilimitude. Hence the focus on the information presented to the player, and the need to minimize extraneous assumptions and rationalizations.

kalarhan said:
a exploit (bad design, limit of the AI, bug that was never fixed, etc)

Anyway, to clarify and to bring this back to the beginning of the discussion, good personal combat play, even leading to great results, is most certainly not an exploit. It requires lots of player practice and skill on full difficulty settings.

If a player kills 50 vikingr solo because the player is an expert at timing strikes and dodging in and out, they have earned their victory. They have certainly done something more challenging than simply clicking back and forth to recruit men until they have enough to overwhelm them with an army.

Now, there are exploits possible: If instead the player abuses the inventory chest reloads of infinite ammo to simply throw infinite javelins until everyone dies, then that is an exploit. If they abuse the fatigue system by riding back and forth until the vikingr are all too tired to move, then that is an exploit. That is taking a mechanic and using it outside its intended functioning in a way that removes the importance of player skill, and so is an exploit. It is very different than the use of skill, judgment, and timing to achieve heroic combat results, where player ability is paramount.

 

kalarhan

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Tingyun said:
If they abuse
well we will need to agree on disagree on this point  :razz:, as walking in reverse to kill a bunch of npcs, or using a horse to kill 50 enemies (AI can't handle your movement and organize a counter), or moving behind the enemy army to make them turn around (so yours can hit them with missiles without a shield), etc, are, in my opinion, a clear abuse of the game mechanics/weak AI. The AI agents can't do that (no matter their level or equipment), while the player can do that even if at a low level and naked  :mrgreen:  It is not about superior skill.

The game in response needs to exploit others elements (like how bandits just spawn from nowhere, created by magic, in infinite numbers). The AI needs to cheat to compensate for its limitations  :lol:

I am not saying that other people should stop doing that. In single player game the player can do whatever he wants to have fun, as noone cares. And as I don't play MP, I don't care about MP exploits  :razz:

Have you ever see the Youtube guides on the cheesy tactics to always win a battle on Total War? Like putting your army back/flank to the map border? That is a example of the human player exploiting the game mechanics. The funny thingy is that you can also do that in Warband (and see similar Youtube guides).

Cheers
 

Tingyun

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We don't disagree that there are exploits--I listed 2 in my post, infinite ammo or abusing fatigue.

kalarhan said:
Using a horse to kill 50 enemies (AI can't handle your movement and organize a counter)
Not true at all. The AI mostly stays bunched up and tries to fight back, and it is only with a huge amount of practice, a calm head, and great timing that a player can achieve this. One wrong move and down goes the horse and player.

You have a distorted sense of the difficulty of player mounted combat in VC. The low armor of horses, lack of lances, and short sword length vs spears all create risk.

I see this odd attitude sometimes from command-oriented players--they think what they do (recruit units, form up with terrain, position carefully) is the uniquely hard challenge in warband, and mounted melee combat is easy. That is obviously wrong. Even at the highest skill levels, personal combat is dangerous and requires constant attention lest you fall, whereas a player can click click recruit units click click use memorized formations to guaranteed victory much more easily.

Anyway, we may indeed have to disagree--because anyone who has actually slain 50 vikingr with nothing but a low armor VC horse and a basic sword knows the great skill and danger involved. :wink:
 

kalarhan

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zhoumu said:
Tips on making and saving money:
going back to the original post, if any player wants to focus on this sort of a campaign (and it is not your first sandbox VC game), then I recommend visiting the modding section for Tweaks.

a few examples:
  - change number of recruits from villages (less grind to form your armies)
  - change economy values (like taxes and rent) to adjust how much you want to depend on money making activities x conquest
  - replace defenders on villages (a lot more fun to attack a village with a few soldiers)
  - escape chance for lords (so you can do strategic wars and force the enemy to sue for peace)
  - battle continuation (if your "weaker" character dies the battle continues)
  - increase battle size and decrease number of waves (less arcade battles)
  - change garrison size for centers (you can set a different limit, to make them have more or less defenders than vanilla)
  - chance of capturing ships (so you can conquer a fleet, not only buy one)

these are some examples of popular tweaks (and that are part of VC Tweaks Tool) that, to me, would make sense on a commander centric campaign.
 

zhoumu

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Nice discussion here :razz: :razz:

Tingyun said:
Hmm, I like to ride in at a sharp angle--so instead of charging directly at the leader, I ride to the side of the formation, and then race parallel to their battle lines and cut the leader down as I go.

As long as my direction of riding is at close to a 90 degree angle to direction of the incoming thrown spears, they always seem to miss.

Then again, I do have a riding skill of around 8 by the time I do this, as I pump Agility up pretty fast, so it is indeed possible it only works with such a high riding.
Which horse did you use? I tried this tactic when I was wearing down the enemy spear throwers, and I still got speared down. Maybe I was too close to the lines. My riding skill was 5, so probably that made the difference. My other char had 10 in riding, but still theres no bulletproof way of gunning down the leader. Success rate was around 50%-60% for my warrior char, and less than 30% for my female char.
 

kalarhan

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zhoumu said:
gunning down the leader
IIRC that is still a issue with vanilla VC, as most armies have little to no cavalry units, and that makes the crazy lord commit suicide by charging alone  :mrgreen:

one simple solution is to force the lord to dismount at start of a battle, so he sticks with the rest of the army.

there are also mods that create a duel system, where you can challenge the enemy commander to a duel while already inside the combat scene/mission. Or a simpler alternative would be to use VC system of dueling (battle menu), that happens BEFORE the battle.
 

Tingyun

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zhoumu said:
Which horse did you use? I tried this tactic when I was wearing down the enemy spear throwers, and I still got speared down. Maybe I was too close to the lines. My riding skill was 5, so probably that made the difference. My other char had 10 in riding, but still theres no bulletproof way of gunning down the leader. Success rate was around 50%-60% for my warrior char, and less than 30% for my female char.
Usually heavy, sometimes champion. There definitely is a critical distance at which spears become much less dangerous.

With leaders, I rush him early,  while he is still parading in front of his men giving speeches and leading them in cheers, or whatever it is their taunts and war cries consist of. I usually throw a javilin or spear as I go, then to a sword and cut him down as I pass. Generally coming in parallel to his battle lines, but several feet further along to create more distance, then turning closer at a slight diagnal just in time to get the lord, then again creating some distance. Always cutting along the side further from his men, so he stands between me and them. Not 100% success by any means--as soon as he gets spooked he generally runs into his men for cover.

Your 50% success rate about matches my own with this--because you can't try too hard, you have to abort when it looks too dangerous. The important thing is to make that 50% of the time it fails, be an abort, rather than your horse going down. :wink:

There is a downside to doing this I think--if you cut him down you turn off his surgery skill, so less wounded guys to capture, unless I misunderstand something.

kalarhan said:
IIRC that is still a issue with vanilla VC, as most armies have little to no cavalry units, and that makes the crazy lord commit suicide by charging alone  :mrgreen:
No, not from what I've seen. VC lords generally seem to hang back, whether they have horsemen in their army or not. Generally their horsemen charge, but they stay with their men.

When you charge them, they stop their parading and go among their men for cover. When you engage normally, they either fight alongside their men near the shieldwall, or they pick a spot on the battlefield and kind of watch from there. Only real exception is sometimes if the battle moves a bit, they end up being sticky in their choice of spot and end up a bit separated from their men, not too often though.

I can't guarantee it isn't something about my behavior causing this--it is possible a highly defensive player might provoke different behavior, or if a player turned on the cheat option "make enemy always charge" then the lords would probably be suicidal, I don't know. It is also possible it has something to do with their shield taunts or war cries--but whatever the origin, the suicidial lord so familiar from other mods isn't what I see in VC.

In sum, on Good AI settings and full difficulty, in general VC lords behave pretty intelligently to protect themselves, making it a fun and worthy challenge to kill them.


 

kalarhan

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Tingyun said:
I can't guarantee it isn't something about my behavior causing this
it may simple depend on the battle advantage. If the AI army is on defensive mode they will stay back (lord including). It is a different thingy when they are on charging mode (they are attacking or have the advantage).
 

Tingyun

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I don't think so--even if the enemy lord has the advantage, he still stays back with his main force. This is true even if his soldier horsemen charge, so the lord's behavior cannot be the result of a general defensive posture.

It is possible if their advantage was truly overwhelming--say, a solo player attacked a lord party--then the lord would charge. I cannot say, as I haven't tried. But in normal circumstances, when they do engage in their shield taunt/war cry behavior, they behave reasonably.

Most likely it is the shield taunt/war cry type AI that causes this. They behave very distinctly in battles--they line their men up, and do an inspiring session riding back and forth a bit in front of them. Very dangerous for a player to interrupt, with all the throwing spears at the ready from his entire line of infantry, but also a very fun and challenging bit of heroics to attempt.

 

kalarhan

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Tingyun said:
the lord's behavior cannot be the result of a general defensive posture.
lord is just a troop on the army, but on a different division. So depending on what the AI decides to do (stay back and wait, or go on and charge) it will apply to the army as a whole, which means that horse troops will just move faster than infantry.

VC added a lot of depth to the general combat (in relation to Native Warband), as to simulate a actual battle (and not a quick skirmish like in Warband), but there are still limitations.

a lot of discussions, tests, code, more discussions, were part of the process  :mrgreen:. The first 6 months of the game (1.0 to 2.0) was really intense on all mechanics and features for the DLC. It may even changed in the recent patches (last 18 months), as I don't play vanilla anymore (other than a quick test section for the Tweaks Tool), so I am cautions on my comment for any AI related behavior. My mods are too heavily modified and memory is easily tricked  :lol:
 

Tingyun

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No, not in VC. What you describe is accurate to other mods though.

Again, I think the shield taunt/war cry specific AI that applies to VC lords changes their behavior. They have their own scripted little dance in front of the battle lines, and do not behave like normal units. It is actually VERY impressive, they ride back and forth in front of their men, a wonderful touch by the VC devs.

It is even possible this change is unintended--as I said, they join up with their shieldwall after their little parade, but if the battle moves location they often end up stuck.

So, for example, recently I saved an East anglia army near Dunwic. I kiled some 30-40 Danes, and at the end only I and the enemy lord were left standing.

Where was he? About 1/4 the map over, where the battle began, but not where it had ended, standing still and refusing to move much (he'd dance a bit back and forth with me as I dualed him, but he clearly was trying to maintain that general position). I've seen that happen several times.

When it doesn't happen, they are right in the midst of their men, as they should be.

In sum--no, while it might be an unintended consequence of the shield taunt/war cry behavior, VC lords do not behave like other units in the army. You might be right this is a recent change though--for all I know, them getting stuck is actually a bug related to the shield taunts being broken in recent patches. But if it is a bug, it is a good one, because 9/10 times it improves their behavior and helps them stay alive. :wink:
 

Tingyun

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oh, forgot to comment on this:

"other than a quick test section for the Tweaks Tool"

You are such a hero for maintaining it for us. Really, Kalarhan, though we sometimes disagree and I enjoy debating back and forth, you have my deep gratitude for maintaining this for all of us fellow VC fans. Thank you!
 

zhoumu

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kalarhan said:
zhoumu said:
gunning down the leader
Or a simpler alternative would be to use VC system of dueling (battle menu), that happens BEFORE the battle.
But that lowers the general's disposition by 10. In my female char play through I try to make friends with everybody, so I normally don't initiate a battle on my own.
 

zhoumu

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Tingyun said:
In sum, on Good AI settings and full difficulty, in general VC lords behave pretty intelligently to protect themselves, making it a fun and worthy challenge to kill them.
Fair point indeed.
 

zhoumu

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Also I'd like to ask, what is the best way to manage lords' disposition in your kingdom? without using any mod.
-Is there any real setbacks for having lords at -100 disposition?
-Feasts are not feasible since: a) your hall gets crowded by lords whom you don't want, and b)it doesn't seem to last long enough.
-preparing a heap of gold?
-doing quests?
-so the best solution should be: just keep 4-5 lords in your kingdom? What if the AI has 100 lords against you?
 

BoomBap

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zhoumu said:
Also I'd like to ask, what is the best way to manage lords' disposition in your kingdom? without using any mod.
-Is there any real setbacks for having lords at -100 disposition?
-Feasts are not feasible since: a) your hall gets crowded by lords whom you don't want, and b)it doesn't seem to last long enough.
-preparing a heap of gold?
-doing quests?
-so the best solution should be: just keep 4-5 lords in your kingdom? What if the AI has 100 lords against you?
1. Yes, the lord can defect with the fiefs he holds(garrisoned fiefs,not villages)

2. Reject the lords. Their personality won't change, so you want nothing to do with them anyway.(Tho I agree, it's a **** feature, they come back in a few days)

3. Good ways to improve relations are: Change marshals accordingly, Give them gold(expensive),
give them wine if you have the wine conneisor special trait(get it by stacking your household inventory with wine)
And most importantly: Plan ahead! Think through how you going to keep relations before recruiting, have some fiefs ready to give etc.
I generally never do quests for lords because they all offer crappy quests which include loosing relations with villages/other lords/kingdoms. Sometimes you can rescue them or their relative from prison, but that's rare.

4. I find it best to have fewer strong lords than many small parties. I have 3 lords for Scandinavia and 4 lords for Ireland. Their party sizes range from 500-1100. Nobody even attacks them so they never fall prisoner and they can easily take forts without my help.  Generally the kingdoms who have more lords than land are very unstable and their lords defect all the time. Their parties are so small you don't even care if like 8 of them attack you.
 

kalarhan

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Tingyun said:
sometimes disagree (...) maintaining this for all of us fellow VC fans
if you only talk with people you agree with, then you are only talking with yourself  :mrgreen:

VC Tweaks Tool is a example. I may disagree with a lot of tweaks inside it (as in, I don't use them on my own mods), but I added and tested them anyway, as the list was based on what the community requested on the Tweaks thread, not my personal taste. Let each player choose how they want to experiment their game.

zhoumu said:
Also I'd like to ask, what is the best way to manage lords' disposition in your kingdom? without using any mod.
-Is there any real setbacks for having lords at -100 disposition?
-Feasts are not feasible since: a) your hall gets crowded by lords whom you don't want, and b)it doesn't seem to last long enough.
-preparing a heap of gold?
-doing quests?
-so the best solution should be: just keep 4-5 lords in your kingdom? What if the AI has 100 lords against you?
Meta game for court life is still sort of simple even in VC (we have high hopes for Bannerlord on this). Couple consequences of having lords not liking you: they will not answer your call (talk to your NPC in a fort to see this option); they are likely to join a rebellion to support their old king (altho rebellions themselves are rare).

Can you do feasts with a female char? I don't recall if that was added on VC. The crowed problem is a consequence of the small hall (to reflect the times), while on Native you had a big castle. This is something that works best if you have a small kingdom only. Unless you mod your game, I don't think it works well for big kingdoms.

You should look for lords with personalities that agree with you (your actions) and that are less likely to lose relations with things like sharing fiefs. Bribing is always good.

AI recruiting depends on their economy (like yours), so focus on cutting that down. Take their trade towns (many times more taxes than normal ones). Destroy caravans. Burn villages. Stuff like that. That way lords will have to depend on smaller armies (no money to recruit) made of weaker troops.

Probably the safest way to enjoy the campaign is to set a goal like: unify England, or Scotland, or become High King of Ireland. Not conquer the entire map. The latter makes shortcomings of MB formula too obvious.