[Video test-Debate-Poll] Bot Idle animations in closed-order formation.

Do you think this kind of animations needs more love?


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Lord Irontoe

Master Knight
That people supposed to be on a battlefield look like in painting?

edit: It probably just comes across as odd to me than you because I've been on a drill field and know it takes a lot of attention and energy to keep ranks covered and dressed in perfect alignment. It's the last thing I'd do on a battlefield before a fight and screams, "Make it look pretty for the camera!"
A drill field's one thing, but would you still have a relaxed attitude knowing there are enemies who will very soon be trying to murder you forming up just a couple hundred yards away? To me, the native idle is a little too nonchalant for men who know they may be about to die very shortly.
 

Apocal

Grandmaster Knight
A drill field's one thing, but would you still have a relaxed attitude knowing there are enemies who will very soon be trying to murder you forming up just a couple hundred yards away?
It isn't a question of relaxation. There is only one reason to hold a shield up high: you are blocking an incoming strike or projectile. If they can't reach you with either of those, there is no reason to hold your shield up. Posting a polearm upright in both hands, without the butt on the ground, while aligned with everyone else doesn't even have that much going for it. It is a parade ground display, nothing more.
 
I just want them to be react believably by themselves. If there are arrows coming down hold up your shield if you have one. We shouldn't have to tell them to get into a shield wall to get them to cover themselves from the dozens of arrows being littered around us.

I very much like your upright rested animations for the spears. I can almost see them chanting or a bashing them into the ground like the The Unsullied before an important defense.
 

RectalRanger

Veteran
I just want them to be react believably by themselves. If there are arrows coming down hold up your shield if you have one. We shouldn't have to tell them to get into a shield wall to get them to cover themselves from the dozens of arrows being littered around us.
+1000

As far as the animations go, I'm in agreement with a bit of both. Swordsmen feel a bit TOO ready.
 

Pensaci

Sergeant
One thing obvious to me is when one about to stop moving, you can see clearly the pose swift into a Idle, the outward-footstand pose.

It's too much like a single idle animation for everyone.
 

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Grandmaster Knight
So, we might find ourselves agreeing that:

Unarmed: idle relaxed
1h: idle relaxed
1h+ shield: relaxed
1h polearm: polearm vertical + arm relaxed
Polearm + shield: polearm vertical + arm flexed
2h polearm: polearm vertical + guard flexed
Bow, crossbow & mounted idles: native default
---optional
2h axe: laid on shoulder

Something similar to this, how do you see it?
 
Definitely, it is a defensive pose and therefore the approach manoeuvres can be more interesting in this regard imho . Unlike your mod (which I hold in high esteem, you know) there is no direct blocking when advancing in formation but that "passive" blocking of the same pose of the modified idle animation. Take a look at this new test, at the beginning the troops march in line formation; I don't execute any shield block at any time, the troops do (notice that when they do so they put down their swords). When the allied troops reach the short distance to the enemy is when the shieldwall order is executed, where by default the guard block is active.



Thanks my friend ? :wink:

Would it be possible to give them more defensive pose while walking / running too? We can force units to have shields in front of them at all times in RBM, but it results in movement debuff just like shieldwall, I would be very interested in a way of having raised shields without movement debuff.
 
So, we might find ourselves agreeing that:

Unarmed: idle relaxed
1h: idle relaxed
1h+ shield: relaxed
1h polearm: polearm vertical + arm relaxed
Polearm + shield: polearm vertical + arm flexed
2h polearm: polearm vertical + guard flexed
Bow, crossbow & mounted idles: native default
---optional
2h axe: laid on shoulder

Something similar to this, how do you see it?
Can you by a chance modify the animations? Like having the sword in one hand idle while having the shield raised? What bothers me a lot in bannerlord is that troops are not actually trying to make as low and as thin profile as possible, instead they have very relaxed and open position even while being in shieldwall. Instead they should try to cover thier body with their shield as much as possible and have their body angled.
 

Bloc

Archduke
WB
Would it be possible to give them more defensive pose while walking / running too? We can force units to have shields in front of them at all times in RBM, but it results in movement debuff just like shieldwall, I would be very interested in a way of having raised shields without movement debuff.
I agree. Running animation looks like 5 year old toddler running to his mom - which ends with death if your enemy is an archer.
I think if they raise their shields a bit ( not completely ) it would be good. And for better protection, they should do shieldwall by embracing speed buff. I think he can replace animations with custom animations - but I'm not sure if the game allows to edit bones on existing animations or not.

This is why I have set up the different idle animations (stand + weapon) with other animations that are much more attractive and immersive in my opinion. Watch please this video test:


Weapons with shield: Shield in guard position + weapon at the ready. Axes: Leaning on the shoulder. Polearms: Two-handed in vertical position. If you look at the PC when it stops, these new idles are activated as well.
What bothers me in this video is the animation begin time and its length. Because modified one looks like Rome Total War with clone-like soldiers doing exactly the same thing. I thought this was because of the same animation but after looking closely to Native, I think it's also using the same animation. But in Native, they look like doing different things at same second and each person looks somewhat unique. I think its related to animation begin time for soldiers and their pace is also randomized. If you can spread some love to that, I think they would look unique without sacrificing the disciplined look.
 

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Grandmaster Knight
Would it be possible to give them more defensive pose while walking / running too? We can force units to have shields in front of them at all times in RBM, but it results in movement debuff just like shieldwall, I would be very interested in a way of having raised shields without movement debuff.
Can you by a chance modify the animations? Like having the sword in one hand idle while having the shield raised? What bothers me a lot in bannerlord is that troops are not actually trying to make as low and as thin profile as possible, instead they have very relaxed and open position even while being in shieldwall. Instead they should try to cover thier body with their shield as much as possible and have their body angled.
You can certainly swap animations, however the same animations you apply for the bots will be reflected for the player and that in this "idle simulation" thread is fine; as an application it would be quite debatable.

For example in my mod/tweak Hybrid Blocking I change the upper blocking arc animations of the shields that block in "shield" mode to "hand shield" mode, getting a hybrid blocking that allows a kite shield to cover your head with it (the bot does it too).

In contrast, in this thread we are talking about passive "stand" idles. In short, it can be done by proxy, but it would look weird. The best thing would be to expand the animation pool, which Taleworlds could do in a couple of days by modifying the existing ones by hand (save as) or we could do eventually when we have access to the custom skeletons.

Edit:
I think I have what you need, take a look at this :fruity::


1. In action_sets.xml
2. Change red (all native animation="X" line in list) to green (animation="X" line mod)
nativemod
<action type="act_idle_1h_with_shield_1" animation="troop_stand_1h_with_shield_1" alternative_group="idle_1h_with_shield" />
<action type="act_idle_1h_with_shield_2" animation="troop_stand_1h_with_shield_2" alternative_group="idle_1h_with_shield" />
<action type="act_idle_1h_with_shield_3" animation="troop_stand_1h_with_shield_3" alternative_group="idle_1h_with_shield" />
<action type="act_idle_1h_with_shield_4" animation="troop_stand_1h_with_shield_4" alternative_group="idle_1h_with_shield" />
<action type="act_idle_1h_with_shield_5" animation="troop_stand_1h_with_shield_5" alternative_group="idle_1h_with_shield" />
<action type="act_idle_1h_with_shield_6" animation="troop_stand_1h_with_shield_6" alternative_group="idle_1h_with_shield" />
<action type="act_idle_1h_with_shield_1_left_stance" animation="troop_stand_1h_with_shield_1_left_stance" alternative_group="idle_1h_with_shield_left_stance" />
<action type="act_idle_1h_with_shield_2_left_stance" animation="troop_stand_1h_with_shield_2_left_stance" alternative_group="idle_1h_with_shield_left_stance" />
<action type="act_idle_1h_with_shield_3_left_stance" animation="troop_stand_1h_with_shield_3_left_stance" alternative_group="idle_1h_with_shield_left_stance" />
<action type="act_idle_1h_with_shield_4_left_stance" animation="troop_stand_1h_with_shield_4_left_stance" alternative_group="idle_1h_with_shield_left_stance" />
<action type="act_idle_1h_with_shield_5_left_stance" animation="troop_stand_1h_with_shield_5_left_stance" alternative_group="idle_1h_with_shield_left_stance" />
<action type="act_idle_1h_with_shield_6_left_stance" animation="troop_stand_1h_with_shield_6_left_stance" alternative_group="idle_1h_with_shield_left_stance" />
<action type="act_idle_1h_with_shield_1" animation="pose_defend_hand_shield_up_1h_passive_down" alternative_group="idle_1h_with_shield" />
<action type="act_idle_1h_with_shield_2" animation="pose_defend_hand_shield_up_1h_passive_down" alternative_group="idle_1h_with_shield" />
<action type="act_idle_1h_with_shield_3" animation="pose_defend_hand_shield_up_1h_passive_down" alternative_group="idle_1h_with_shield" />
<action type="act_idle_1h_with_shield_4" animation="pose_defend_hand_shield_up_1h_passive_down" alternative_group="idle_1h_with_shield" />
<action type="act_idle_1h_with_shield_5" animation="pose_defend_hand_shield_up_1h_passive_down" alternative_group="idle_1h_with_shield" />
<action type="act_idle_1h_with_shield_6" animation="pose_defend_hand_shield_up_1h_passive_down" alternative_group="idle_1h_with_shield" />
<action type="act_idle_1h_with_shield_1_left_stance" animation="pose_defend_hand_shield_up_1h_passive_down" alternative_group="idle_1h_with_shield_left_stance" />
<action type="act_idle_1h_with_shield_2_left_stance" animation="pose_defend_hand_shield_up_1h_passive_down" alternative_group="idle_1h_with_shield_left_stance" />
<action type="act_idle_1h_with_shield_3_left_stance" animation="pose_defend_hand_shield_up_1h_passive_down" alternative_group="idle_1h_with_shield_left_stance" />
<action type="act_idle_1h_with_shield_4_left_stance" animation="pose_defend_hand_shield_up_1h_passive_down" alternative_group="idle_1h_with_shield_left_stance" />
<action type="act_idle_1h_with_shield_5_left_stance" animation="pose_defend_hand_shield_up_1h_passive_down" alternative_group="idle_1h_with_shield_left_stance" />
<action type="act_idle_1h_with_shield_6_left_stance" animation="pose_defend_hand_shield_up_1h_passive_down" alternative_group="idle_1h_with_shield_left_stance" />
[...]

What bothers me in this video is the animation begin time and its length. Because modified one looks like Rome Total War with clone-like soldiers doing exactly the same thing. I thought this was because of the same animation but after looking closely to Native, I think it's also using the same animation. But in Native, they look like doing different things at same second and each person looks somewhat unique. I think its related to animation begin time for soldiers and their pace is also randomized. If you can spread some love to that, I think they would look unique without sacrificing the disciplined look.

Of course, the native has an average of 5 passive idles for each weapon mode, which give that natural mob feel. Here in this thread, I wanted to bring the topic up for discussion with these other types of animations as universal examples. Obviously, if you proceed with the implementation of this kind of animations, you should create 1 master and >4 complementary ones in the same style so that the result doesn't look like robots moving in unison with the same movements.
 
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soul_jak

Sergeant at Arms
Ideally, a bit of both would be great. Lower tier troops can be more casual, while top tier ones will be more disciplined.
+1 maybe some stuff like in total war games like small jumps to hype up or some taunting and shield bashing when enemies are in sight, I don’t want every soldier to have the same idle animation makes the game look more lifeless want my bots to feel like ppl other then bots lol
 

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Grandmaster Knight
+1 maybe some stuff like in total war games like small jumps to hype up or some taunting and shield bashing when enemies are in sight, I don’t want every soldier to have the same idle animation makes the game look more lifeless want my bots to feel like ppl other then bots lol
I hope this is understood, but let's see if I've made myself clear.

The video test is a visual conceptualisation to feed the debate we are dealing with here. I'm talking about less nonchalant "idle animation types", as you will understand, I'm not going to be able to implement 5 or 6 variants of the same style to make it more natural in the formation ? .
 

RectalRanger

Veteran
So, we might find ourselves agreeing that:

Unarmed: idle relaxed
1h: idle relaxed
1h+ shield: relaxed
1h polearm: polearm vertical + arm relaxed
Polearm + shield: polearm vertical + arm flexed
2h polearm: polearm vertical + guard flexed
Bow, crossbow & mounted idles: native default
---optional
2h axe: laid on shoulder
Now that's looking good. As it stands the 2h sword is fine, but I can't help keep thinking about Apocals "I'm going to just hold up this weapon for minutes straight, because my arms never get tired" remark.
 

h1zchan

Sergeant
This is a great point but can i just quickly say, you point your spear upward on the battlefield not because it's the 'ready' position. Quite the opposite, by resting the butt of the shaft on the ground it's the most relaxing position in which you can hold a spear. You might also want to hold the spear point up when walking or running with it because it's less likely to get caught on stuff that way, but in this case you obviously have to lift up the butt of the shaft so it doesn't drag on the ground as you walk. So to recap, in order to make the point up idle animation flow with the other animations in the game, you have to make it so that the spear is also pointed upwards when the character is running or walking. I should also mention when you hold a spear/pole weapon in two hands you never put your hands so close together like in the screenshots. It just doesn't look right that way.

Also with regards to the two handed weapon resting on the shoulder in one hand idle animation, it's almost never a good idea, because it's neither relaxing, nor at the ready to strike from that position when it's only held in one hand. It might be a good idea to hold the weapon in two hands in that position, but that's just vom Tag, and you do that when you're ready to strike with your weapon. You also want your vom Tag to be held a bit higher, generally around face height, so that you have more potential energy to expend when you swing it. But generally speaking in this game the 'weapon at the ready' poses are played when you hold your attack button (LMB) without releasing it, so poses like vom Tag should only play when you're holding down the attack button, whereas the idle animations when you're not clicking any buttons should correspond to the relaxed poses.

And when it comes to idle shield poses, it's hard to say what looks right and what doesn't because what looks right for a large kite shield will look wrong for a boss grip shield. With kite shields it's actually less tiring when you hold it in a more vertical orientation and close to the body, due to how heavy the tail of the shield is it acts like a pendulum and wants to stay down, esp if the shield comes with an guige strap. With a boss gripped shield or a small heater shield, the most relaxing position will of course be holding it at the side with arm straight down, like how you would carry a suit case. But I'm not sure if the game gives different animation slots for boss grip shields and kite shields.
 

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Grandmaster Knight
Good necro. I was going to provide a few pieces of manuscripts... but you know what... given that Taleworlds isn't going to modify any of this, that's what I'm skipping. :iamamoron:
 
Good necro. I was going to provide a few pieces of manuscripts... but you know what... given that Taleworlds isn't going to modify any of this, that's what I'm skipping. :iamamoron:
Yeah not worth wasting more time waiting for devs to address this. It's a good suggestion, I imagine applying these stances as the idle animations could also give a sense of more organization to the battlefield in a way that it minimizes the appearance of a brainless bot behavior. Best case scenario we would get more animations variety and accurate behaviors according to troop type, experience, situation (proximity to the enemy)...

But still, I would rather have devs focusing on fixing underlying issues with animations (like the broken joints). Priorities.
At least give the proper tools to modders so that they can refine this aspects of the game.
 
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