Video - Common beginner player errors

[AaronJBC]

I think if you want to "help" beginners you should not post a video of a TDM (lowest skilled players), with NO FF (lol) and a 2hander "spamming."

 

[dhowlett]

Yeah I'll be pretty honest and say I suck ass at single player. When I played m&b originally I ended up playing a horse archer and riding circles around people reloading at the chest when I ran out of ammo.

Bots are sort of faster than people in terms of their reactions and for what they want to do, they also just come right into face range and tend not to get too tangled up on one another. They won't make timing errors like some people in the video (ie when I run up to them and just slash before they even let go of the mouse button).  They don't respond to feints and don't have input lag if they are reacting slow or go the wrong way.

Normally in MP a facehugger can be dealt with a kick and you can sort of do it with bots but you really have to block them and be sure they aren't going to end up chamber blocking you because you decided to swing a microsecond before they decide to swing.

But yeah for on the ground bot fighting i'm horrible. I guess in the old one you could max agility and keep running away and slashing but I'm not sure if this time around you can outpace people.

MMM so my polearm infantry soldier may not work out too well after all huh?

I think if you want to "help" beginners you should not post a video of a TDM (lowest skilled players), with NO FF (lol) and a 2hander "spamming."

watch his dueling videos then say something worth saying.

 

[The_Freeman]

Nice and helpful video! I hope to cross swords (or axes, or spears, or wathever) with you on the battlefield!

 

[Reapy]

I think what was going on in the dueling videos went over people's heads that were just starting.  But i made those originally to learn to edit home movies of my son (but that footage was boring lol ) and then I wanted to try to catch as many beta players in action that I either liked, taught me something, or inspired me in my play in some way.

My play really does evolve over time, if you look at all my uploaded videos and see the "quick duel' with me goofing around with a rl friend, I move just like everyone in the TDM video does, hands down the same things. But I didn't have a video to show me the other end of things going wrong and had to learn by dieing a lot over and over again, and even then I still didn't get it and it took some long dueling sessions with neih for me to learn a lot of what makes me a stronger player now.

So in the TDM vid I wanted to show what kind of mess it is out there right now and how hard it is to figure out what you are doing in traffic jams like that. The couple times I broke it down in slow motion I felt those situations were very representative of things that new players do often that gets them killed. I think watching those sections are the most helpful.

The killing of those 3 players at once is almost a highlight of constant mistakes, I went in swinging wildly and should have died to at least the guy on the right who was thrusting. But he mis-timed both thrusts so I got away with it, followed by the 3rd guy who should have then cleaved my head but he again was too slow in releasing his attack.

And Sir Nigel I in no way meant to belittle people in the video (not saying you were offended, just saying ), and my terse little comments are due to me doing it up till 3 am on a work night and my computer slowing way down to the point I'd type and it appeared seconds later, at the last minute I threw in all the extra comments after I felt the slow mo sections turned out to be informative.  Again just watch my 'quick duel' video and you'll see how terrible I played months ago.

So anyway, my plans when I have more free time is to do tutorial videos with that demonstrate basic concepts from block directions, chambers, stuns/crush throughs,  and then up to some of those axioms like return swing after a block and the like, sort of a video infantry primer if you will.

That should ultimately be what is linked up in that sticky and shouldn't get tangled up with people think I am trying to brag. Trust me in those 3 rounds I went down really fast a lot of the time or got shot in the head with arrows or run over by cav all over the place. I only saved the good runs since I find that people probably don't want to watch me sucking

 

[Kapt Torbjorn]

Gotta admit, you were spamming like crazy there and using cheap tactics 'turning into the swing', which most new players don't know about.

 

[Berserker Pride]

Until the game documentation starts telling you to turn into your swings this will remain an unfair advantage for the vets.  Nowhere does the game tell you to turn into your swings and hit early.  There is no downside to it with the current very soft penalty for early hits(which goes away before the first third of the animation is complete).  As it exists now it basically is a second speed level for the pros.  It requires no more skill to turn into your swings or attack early than it requires to not do it and there is no real penalty.  If we want new players to enjoy the game should we handicap them with a lower swing speed?
You blame them but honestly would you be mad if everyone could attack faster than you?

  If the current turn penalty to damage remains as weak as it is now the game tutorial needs to encourage people to turn into their swings. 

Sorry thought of another reason to increase the penalty to early hits.  Horizontals are already faster than overheads but early hits make them almost completely useless unless you have a block crush weapon.  Someone doing an overhead is almost a free kill right now because the horzontal + spin is twice as fast.

You guys say whiffing is common but I really only see that with two-handers when either he hits you with his hand(not the weapon at all really) or he hits you with the very extreme tip of the weapon.

 

[dhowlett]

Until the game documentation starts telling you to turn into your swings this will remain an unfair advantage for the vets.  Nowhere does the game tell you to turn into your swings and hit early.  There is no downside to it with the current very soft penalty for early hits(which goes away before the first third of the animation is complete).  As it exists now it basically is a second speed level for the pros.  It requires no more skill to turn into your swings or attack early than it requires to not do it and there is no real penalty.  If we want new players to enjoy the game should we handicap them with a lower swing speed?
You blame them but honestly would you be mad if everyone could attack faster than you?

  If the current turn penalty to damage remains as weak as it is now the game tutorial needs to encourage people to turn into their swings. 

Sorry thought of another reason to increase the penalty to early hits.  Horizontals are already faster than overheads but early hits make them almost completely useless unless you have a block crush weapon.  Someone doing an overhead is almost a free kill right now because the horzontal + spin is twice as fast.

You guys say whiffing is common but I really only see that with two-handers when either he hits you with his hand(not the weapon at all really) or he hits you with the very extreme tip of the weapon.

It is a sad world when everyone expects everything spoon fed to them. Common sence out of the window. I may not be the best on WB but i was a top 10 on empire earth (an RTS game) and people used to constantly act like this about things which took alot of practice to perfect. Calling me and my friends cheaters, users of cheap tactics because our armys would come out twice as fast or we would use a smaller army to "micro manage" using our skills which "OMG NOOBS DONT KNOW!?!?!?! UNFAIR" to beat them.  Why expect to be able to compete with those who have had more practice or are more skilled? Why shouldn't the more skilled people have tactics that othres dont know about? If they dont then its a very simple and bland game.

Of course i will not argue that the game mechanics need changing but the way your talking about them as if its some unholy power. New people or "noobs" dont know everything, thats why they are noobs. I was turning into my attacks from the first few hours of playing warband just by accident and i relised the sheer advantage it was giving me. Simple stuff. How about people use some common sence instead of *****ing about why the game is unfair that someone knows how to do something they don't.

 

[Berserker Pride]

Pray tell why should a second speed for attacks exist at all?  What is the point of two speeds if there is no downside to the fast one?  That isn't a "tactic" its a cheat. 

I was turning into my attacks from the first few hours of playing warband just by accident and i relised the sheer advantage it was giving me.

Being outspammed for a couple hours is probably enough to make some quit Warband entirely before realizing it.  Like it or not the spinning is a pillar of the combat system with the swing sweet spot penalty almost non-existent.  That being the case it should be in the tutorial.

 

[Aranarth]

This is incorrect and the official term is called a "weapon sweet spot" and much has been done to arrive at them. If you can find someone to test this with you, try swinging so that you 'instantly' hit someone and see what happens. Try it with the person in and out of armor, you will whiff.  Try to hit someone at the tail end of your swing, again see what happens. Whiff. 

I actually have tried it. I have killed and been killed by swings as they began. I have turned my back to someone so that he was up against me, chambered an attack and held it. Both of us stood perfectly still, and the instant weapon was released it killed him despite the fact that he was behind me and it was an overhead swing. I have done the same with a left side swing and someone behind me/had it done to me.

You're telling me it will miss, but I saw one-hit kills on totally unarmored people. So no, I don't agree with you here.

Also, suppose for the sake of argument that it really isn't the absolute exact instant that the weapon swings and it comes a few inches into the swing later. That really doesn't change the discussion in any way.

Wrong. The weapon is not swinging quicker

No, you're misunderstanding what I am saying. The weapon doesn't swing faster on the forward swing. It resets more quickly than it should so you can swing again more quickly. So the time it takes to do one swing is the same, but the time it takes to swing several times in a row is greatly reduced. Given that you can skip most of the swing animation by rebounding off the shield, you can swing rapid fire. Now, if you hit your target, the swing completes and you lose the rapid fire effect, but then you've hit your target. That's the goal.

This example doesnt make total sense within current game mechanics though. Neih just told you the facts up there, if you are blocked, in almost all cases you will not be able to hit the other person again before they hit you.  There is weapon stun such that if the larger weapon hits a smaller one the larger weapon can sometimes attack again, but the stun will not chain.

I know that you had already dismissed the validity of this discussion before you began to take part in it, but it is very frustrating to see that you're not really reading what I am saying.

Here is the exact quote from my post where you can see I was very clear that it happens against shields and it does not happen when you weapon block. Obviously, then, explaining that it works fine against weapon blocking doesn't say anything that I didn't already say. You can see the relevant parts in bold.

1) A horizontal (left or right) melee swing from any melee weapon will hit roughly as hard at the very moment it is released as it would at the point where the weapon is moving with the most velocity.

This means that if you position yourself so that your target is where your "wind up" animation would position the weapon, you'll hit him the instant you release the swing with essentially full effect.

2) A horizontal swing that is blocked (by a shield) has a short reset animation that is independent of the weapon's speed rating.

This means that a short sword or a great bardiche that hits a shield will be ready to swing again roughly in the same amount of time.

3) If you position your swings as explained in point #1, and if point #2 is true, then it is possible to make it so that a very slow weapon swings much more quickly than it should.

Individual player skill is not relevant to whether or not it makes any sense for this to be the case. It's simply a weird situation when a weapon hits a shield at close range. You can do the same thing with a 1H weapon, and if you weapon block it doesn't happen.

This does, however, explain why people get hung up on the two-handed weapons. If you're having the problem, you're using a shield. If you're using a shield, you're using a 1H weapon. If you're using a two-handed weapon, you're not using a shield, and so you're not having the problem. Follow? But again, it really has nothing to do with two-handed weapons. It happens with all melee weapons when they land on shields because the way that they rebound off the shield puts the weapon back in a swinging position more quickly.

Finally, and I will say this again and hope you read it: Forget spam. Spam is not what the problem is. It's a word being used for different things and confusing the issue. Read the entire post you responded to and that couldn't be more clear.

It's very frustrating to talk to someone who is intentionally not listening. You dismiss everything by saying people just don't understand what's going on in melee, but you're obviously only barely skimming what I am saying so that you don't understand what it is that you're responding to.

 

[Sir Nigel]

And Sir Nigel I in no way meant to belittle people in the video (not saying you were offended, just saying ), and my terse little comments are due to me doing it up till 3 am on a work night and my computer slowing way down to the point I'd type and it appeared seconds later, at the last minute I threw in all the extra comments after I felt the slow mo sections turned out to be informative.  Again just watch my 'quick duel' video and you'll see how terrible I played months ago.

Of course I'm not offended, I mean it when I say this video is very useful for beginners. The comments are clear, and they show mistakes that I will try to correct. Anyway, it is difficult for me to handle a 2H and NOT going berserk. 

 

[Reapy]

I don't know if i'm playing the same game as you guys honestly.

Two speeds? Unfair advantages? Wow. In my video I do not think I am doing anything complex or 'secret'. There is a sticky post in the forums explaining everything I know about the game (and I still have holes) for anybody to read. There are 30,000+ views on it, so I assume that the information has been read and digested by a large amount of people.

Aranarth I'm trying to listen to you but your point wanders all over.  In terms of your problem with overhead strike killing some directly behind you at close range... that was patched out of the game a while ago. Usually while I  am talking with neih between duels we both stand like you said and do overhead hits specifically because they whiff, so again I really have no clue what you are talking about and honestly am not sure we are playing the same game.

I would suggest a new topic with whatever problem you have with shields would be helpful and others who know more about shield blocking and recovery times can help you there. I haven't used one in melee for a while so I am very behind the times and was never very good with one to begin with. I am not sure about what your problem is with them still...recovery times are the same with every weapon?

But anyway, I'll do my thing you guys can do yours and I guess we'll leave it for the devs to determine what goes in/out and I'll continue adapting to changes as long as it remains fun. I don't think there is anywhere else to go with this discussion.

 

[dhowlett]

People like to blame their own inadiquancies on other things through all walks of life. We all do it, i do it very badly in some cases infact . It seems like the aparent "cheating" super fast attack not simply learning the games mechanics to your advantage, as all skilled players do of all games, is an excuse people use for why they are loosing.

Ive never debated that it is a fault of the mechanics. But there will be such faults in ALL games so *****ing about them and how they are "cheating" wont change anything. Its not cheating its simply being smart.

 

[kingofnoobia]

I think if you want to "help" beginners you should not post a video of a TDM (lowest skilled players), with NO FF (lol) and a 2hander "spamming."

It's mainly about mistakes in melee combat, not general gameplay. The best way to show combat is to go into a TDM server, as you simply get lots of it there. Also, he wanted to point out beginner mistakes, so he has to find lower-skilled players. FF is simply irrelevant to the whole point. And Reapy was trying to make a point that the so called 'spammers', as some seem to call him, actually, know very well what they are doing, unlike said inexperienced players. You can see Reapy has good timing and footwork, and he's a consistent blocker too. He isn't mindlessly spamming, he is simply a good combatant.

 

[inox_ionizer]

Until the game documentation starts telling you to turn into your swings this will remain an unfair advantage for the vets.  Nowhere does the game tell you to turn into your swings and hit early.  There is no downside to it with the current very soft penalty for early hits(which goes away before the first third of the animation is complete).  As it exists now it basically is a second speed level for the pros.  It requires no more skill to turn into your swings or attack early than it requires to not do it and there is no real penalty.  If we want new players to enjoy the game should we handicap them with a lower swing speed?
You blame them but honestly would you be mad if everyone could attack faster than you?

  If the current turn penalty to damage remains as weak as it is now the game tutorial needs to encourage people to turn into their swings. 

Sorry thought of another reason to increase the penalty to early hits.  Horizontals are already faster than overheads but early hits make them almost completely useless unless you have a block crush weapon.  Someone doing an overhead is almost a free kill right now because the horzontal + spin is twice as fast.

You guys say whiffing is common but I really only see that with two-handers when either he hits you with his hand(not the weapon at all really) or he hits you with the very extreme tip of the weapon.

Berserker Pride earns 1 star!

 

[neih]

If you watch the video with me dueling with reapy, there is a specific reason why I don't "turn into my swing" for most of my attacks. It's because it carries a huge risk when you come face to face with a skilled duelist who can manual block. when you decide to spin, you are sacrificing your defense. I'm certain that most skilled duelists know what I'm talking about. Since I know that reapy is fully capable of chamber block, I don't want to take the risk of spinning. If I do a spin attack, and reapy chambers it, I will take that hit full in the face.

There are certain situations however that calls for twisting. For example, when 2 fighters simultaneously exchange attacks. 1 fighter might predict such a situation coming before the other and twists during the simultaneous exchange, and gains the attack priority even when he has the slower weapon. He puts all his focus into that 1 spin attack with little regards to defense, positioning, and without thinking about what happens next.
What if fighter 2 sees 2 steps ahead and blocks the spin attack, then moves behind fighter 1. fighter 1's defense is hugely jeopardized.

From my experience in duels, I'd say that it's incredibly risky to spin attack against someone who has good footworks(like gravish), manual blocking skills, and can especially chamber(reapy).

When I join DM servers, I assumed that most of the players  won't block or retaliate effectively so I twist more often during my attacks. But after exchanging  3 or 4 hits with someone, I will stop twisting immediately because I have a small clue what that player is capable of.
These "cheap tactics" will not work on experienced duelists.


The only thing I feel that needs some work is the kicking.

 

[anfiach]

There were plenty of opportunities in the dueling videos for either party to use the 'spin spam'. It seems that instead of addressing flawed game mechanics in a manner which will improve combat overall, some people want to keep an advantage over noobs in order to feel superior. If you don't expect the players to have the skill to counter your 'excellent footwork and blocking skills' why do you feel the need to exploit the game mechanics in order to beat them?

 

[Aranarth]

People like to blame their own inadiquancies on other things through all walks of life. We all do it, i do it very badly in some cases infact . It seems like the aparent "cheating" super fast attack not simply learning the games mechanics to your advantage, as all skilled players do of all games, is an excuse people use for why they are loosing.

That's a poor attitude. It works for and against all of us, but it doesn't make much logical sense for it to work that way. I don't even use a shield. I stopped doing it because it's easier/better to manual block. I am not complaining because people kill me with it. I am pointing out an obvious bug and getting a whole lot of ego in response from random people who think they're skilled enough at a video game to look down on people.

 

[Venero]

I'll just add my 2 cents by saying great video, and especially great duel videos that I also watched. It would be a real honour to learn from you guys in terms of dueling, So far I've only played 'multiplayer' with my roomate, and after just two sessions of a couple hours each it seems pretty clear that he's sick of it, and as they say, the best way to improve quickly and correctly is to fight someone that is better rather then someone who's response to my first correctly executed chamber block was "**** this".

 

[Aranarth]

Aranarth I'm trying to listen to you but your point wanders all over.

No, it really doesn't, and I don't know how you can say that. You have responded to me as if you didn't notice very clear and ephmasized statements that were contained in parts of my post that you quoted and responded to. My point is the same. You're going all over the place with your responses, but you're not responding to what I am saying.

In terms of your problem with overhead strike killing some directly behind you at close range... that was patched out of the game a while ago.

If a while ago is since yesterday, then you have me there. Yesterday is when I did this. If you're having trouble following why that is relevant to the discussion, I'll explain.

You told me that I was incorrect when I said that you can hit for nearly full damage with the start of a swing. You told me to try it myself.

I said that I did try it myself on both overhead and side swings, and it works as I said. Now you're telling me that my point is going all over the place. It's not that hard to follow.

Usually while I  am talking with neih between duels we both stand like you said and do overhead hits specifically because they whiff, so again I really have no clue what you are talking about and honestly am not sure we are playing the same game.

 

We must not be, then. It may be the specific weapons used. I was using the larged nord great axe, not a bastard sword as you used in those videos. I think they technically count as a polearm and not a two-hander as the game classifies them, so maybe that's the difference. Try it with one of those next time you get a chance.

I would suggest a new topic with whatever problem you have with shields would be helpful and others who know more about shield blocking and recovery times can help you there. I haven't used one in melee for a while so I am very behind the times and was never very good with one to begin with. I am not sure about what your problem is with them still...recovery times are the same with every weapon?

Yeah, most people who seem to know what they're doing say they don't use shields for melee unless there is the need to block arrows. Why is that, do you think?

As for what I think is wrong with the mechanics of the game when it comes to shield blocking and its effect on the rate at which you can swing, I think I described it clearly enough. If you had wanted to know what the problem was, you could have read my posts on it.

But anyway, I'll do my thing you guys can do yours and I guess we'll leave it for the devs to determine what goes in/out and I'll continue adapting to changes as long as it remains fun. I don't think there is anywhere else to go with this discussion.

Neih asked a question about Spam. I tried to explain that there is a difference between spamming attacks and exploiting a weird game mechanic. Instead of a real discussion I got some ego. There apparently never was anywhere to go with it, but the question was asked and I did my best to answer it. Apparently it was just a question meant to be insulting to those lesser people out there. I apologize for taking it seriously and trying to help shed some light on why it is that some people who are complaining might have a legitimate balance issue completely unrelated to the whining you're characterizing it as without giving it any thought.

 

[dhowlett]

People like to blame their own inadiquancies on other things through all walks of life. We all do it, i do it very badly in some cases infact . It seems like the aparent "cheating" super fast attack not simply learning the games mechanics to your advantage, as all skilled players do of all games, is an excuse people use for why they are loosing.

That's a poor attitude. It works for and against all of us, but it doesn't make much logical sense for it to work that way. I don't even use a shield. I stopped doing it because it's easier/better to manual block. I am not complaining because people kill me with it. I am pointing out an obvious bug and getting a whole lot of ego in response from random people who think they're skilled enough at a video game to look down on people.

O i dont think im better or worse then anyone here. I have never played any of you. But im sorry its how all games work. "I keep dieing to this, nerf this" etc etc. Its not game breaking, everyone knows it so just use it. Its like saying "No you cant aim at my head because then id have to aim at yours in a fps". Its simply *****ing because the other person is better at it then them. Otherwize they wouldn't complain, they would aim at everyones heads.

Ive already agreed in previous posts that the mechanics do need changing. But im pointing out how its being addressed as if its some unholy cheat. Infact someone i replyed to even called it cheating. Its not.

Furthre more if you watched his dueling videos you would see very well how skilled he is. Its not possible for him to show these skills against players who cant even block a shot. This is common sence.

Furthre more as i said before. There will always be ways to attack faster etc etc, if there isn't techniques like this then the game is bland and boring because then the only thing you can do is click swing before the other into an obvious block and if you both swing at the same time its all down to luck. This is boring and takes all the skill out of the game, which as shown in the quote bellow there is alot more in it because playing against skilled players this spinning wont work.

I dont know if you read this but this backs up exactly what i and a few othres have been saying :

If you watch the video with me dueling with reapy, there is a specific reason why I don't "turn into my swing" for most of my attacks. It's because it carries a huge risk when you come face to face with a skilled duelist who can manual block. when you decide to spin, you are sacrificing your defense. I'm certain that most skilled duelists know what I'm talking about. Since I know that reapy is fully capable of chamber block, I don't want to take the risk of spinning. If I do a spin attack, and reapy chambers it, I will take that hit full in the face.

There are certain situations however that calls for twisting. For example, when 2 fighters simultaneously exchange attacks. 1 fighter might predict such a situation coming before the other and twists during the simultaneous exchange, and gains the attack priority even when he has the slower weapon. He puts all his focus into that 1 spin attack with little regards to defense, positioning, and without thinking about what happens next.
What if fighter 2 sees 2 steps ahead and blocks the spin attack, then moves behind fighter 1. fighter 1's defense is hugely jeopardized.

From my experience in duels, I'd say that it's incredibly risky to spin attack against someone who has good footworks(like gravish), manual blocking skills, and can especially chamber(reapy).

When I join DM servers, I assumed that most of the players  won't block or retaliate effectively so I twist more often during my attacks. But after exchanging  3 or 4 hits with someone, I will stop twisting immediately because I have a small clue what that player is capable of.
These "cheap tactics" will not work on experienced duelists.


The only thing I feel that needs some work is the kicking.