SP Dark Ages [VC][Submod] Outlaws Expanded (second test version released) -DEAD for now-

kraggrim

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WBM&BWF&SNWVC
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It doesn't, so you could probably copy everything but the itemkinds file over.  I should also point out that this mod requires starting a new game.
 
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So i'll start by saying great job, I haven't explored everything (just started new game) but so far i'm pleasantly surprised.

However I did run into a bug when talking to my player faction bandit parties. I immediately went from 90 to -3 relations with my own faction meaning I was hunted by my own bandits. I was hoping I could order them to follow me for a little to attack a caravan together.

Quick note, balance is a little off. Revenue from parties seems good but the purse of the bandit lairs is too big imo, allowing for huge payoff from selling all the worthless junk. Never thought I'd complain about having too much money...
 

kraggrim

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WBM&BWF&SNWVC
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Oh yeah, forgot to note that bug. I already implemented a follow option for next version which should also fix that:

The lair merchant should only get more money once a week (and if you travel to a different lair, because they all technically share the same merchant). I was hoping that would balance it, but how much less do you think he should have?
 
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Yeah its not as unbalanced as I thought because you still have to invest quite a bit in increasing the size of the bandit parteis for them to be of any use but I would still argue that if you gave the merchant 2/3 of what he has it would play better.

I would also say that lowering the recruitment price should be done at the same time. Rn, it simply isn't worth it to pay over 500 gold for a elite dane without a helmet who's going to cost me 87 gold per week on top of that.
 

kraggrim

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WBM&BWF&SNWVC
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The merchant money has been lowered. Should be easy to lower recruitment prices a bit, currently it used the tavern mercenary price calculation so probably is too high.

How about the 'infamy' score mechanic, is that working out? It's supposed to kinda like renown, but bandits only care how much pillaging of soft targets you've done lately (they don't care about your past deeds or tough battles). So I set it to build through that and fluctuate through recruitment etc.

Currently working on a mission to steal a ship from a slaver landing. Trying to replace that part of the storyline where you get the first ship so player's can start sailing about earlier (plus you might have pissed off every town in the region pretty quickly). What kind of ship do you guys think is suitable? In the story it's a snekka (27 capacity), but that's a pretty expensive ship for early on, so I'm unsure.
 

kalarhan

Python Saint
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WBNWVCWF&S
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kraggrim said:
What kind of ship do you guys think is suitable? In the story it's a snekka (27 capacity), but that's a pretty expensive ship for early on, so I'm unsure.
Well you could make the ship meta-gaming more dynamic by increasing the damage they take, the chance you lose ships in battle, and at the same time the chance of capturing one.

That way you can start with a small like a Knorr and raid fishers/small traders and form a fleet. Normal (vanilla) game rules make that too hard, so you are kind stuck with "buying them".

You could keep the good quality (oak) as a exclusive item from crafting (expensive) and harder to sink... as a more middle-endgame goal.
 

kraggrim

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WBM&BWF&SNWVC
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I like that idea, but it'll be another element to balance. I'll file it away for the future.
 
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Well I think a Knorr (12 knots, 39 men) is a good starter. It offers a larger party and you can easily explain it in the story becuase those ships were very popular trading vessels because of their wider berth, making them more numerous and easier to capture (No need to fend off 30 sword danes)

Haven't had the time to explore the infamy mechanic yet, I'll let you know.

FYI, going to throw my grain of salt out there because that's what I do with most of my time on this forum. Once you are done with the outlaw path, You should try making a "become a lord's companion" path. Freelancer at first and then become lords companion until he offers you to lead some of his men in a small party. Kindof like mercenary but you need his trust (and you use his men). Not quite sure how you would implement it but had a brain fart and felt the need to share it. Feel free to disregard entirely.
 

kraggrim

Marquis
WBM&BWF&SNWVC
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Probably not something I'd try to make (never been too enthusiastic about freelancer myelf) , but you should post it in kalarhan's mod suggestions thread.


Finally got all the slaver ship landings sorted. will probably upload a second test version tomorrow.
 
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Sounds good. Btw, is there a way to recruit sea bandits that I missed? Party isn't strong enough yet to go clear out the ruins or Odin's cave so haven't checked that out yet.

Btw^2, I posted a question regarding you and Kalahrans tweak tool but I think neither of you saw it because he answered the following post without chiding me as he usually does :razz: Anyway, would appreciate if you could take a quick look.
 
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Haha new travels fast I see ^^

Hey Kragg I just had an idea (inspired by the Saxon Tales for which I need to thank this forum).

So Haestan and other Viking jarls use the lure of silver to attract crews to them in order to raise an army.

What if, similar to being a marshal, you added a convo with your followers which called upon all your outlaws to join you. (Even if you are a sworn noble). That would cost imfamy and the troopd which answered would come depending on how much cash you have (the more cash, renown and infamy, the more men show up and for longer) allowing you raise short lived but huge armies to plunder land. They eventually disperse making it difficult to hold any land (can't garrrison them) but could make a really cool dynamic.

Its ambitious but I'm excited just to think about it. Something like golf and renown = how many show up (Long term reputation as warrior will attract crews) Infamy = how long they stay (Short term success defines whether they stay or now. If you lose, your men will desert you while if you win, they will stay.)
 

kraggrim

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WBM&BWF&SNWVC
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DrunkenFrenchman said:
Sounds good. Btw, is there a way to recruit sea bandits that I missed? Party isn't strong enough yet to go clear out the ruins or Odin's cave so haven't checked that out yet.
Thanks for reminding me, I need to add the tweak for recruiting sea-vikings.

DrunkenFrenchman said:
Haha new travels fast I see ^^

Hey Kragg I just had an idea (inspired by the Saxon Tales for which I need to thank this forum).

So Haestan and other Viking jarls use the lure of silver to attract crews to them in order to raise an army.

What if, similar to being a marshal, you added a convo with your followers which called upon all your outlaws to join you. (Even if you are a sworn noble). That would cost imfamy and the troopd which answered would come depending on how much cash you have (the more cash, renown and infamy, the more men show up and for longer) allowing you raise short lived but huge armies to plunder land. They eventually disperse making it difficult to hold any land (can't garrrison them) but could make a really cool dynamic.

Its ambitious but I'm excited just to think about it. Something like golf and renown = how many show up (Long term reputation as warrior will attract crews) Infamy = how long they stay (Short term success defines whether they stay or now. If you lose, your men will desert you while if you win, they will stay.)
Do you mean like a marshal gathering the lords, so all the created parties would converge on you for a time? I'd think that would be possible. Some sort of bandit horde mechanic.
 
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That's exactly what I mean. A bandit horde which could then lead large a scale raids but without the ability to use the horde to garrison. (To balance the potential huge mass of soldiers you could lead)
 

kraggrim

Marquis
WBM&BWF&SNWVC
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Here's the second test version (24/03/16) for download:
http://www7.zippyshare.com/v/EmPYdRVl/file.html

Copy your VC 2.023beta module folder, rename it and overwrite with these files. If you're not using this version it might still work, I'm unsure.

Try:
Raid villages/caravans/monasteries to earn 'infamy' then spend it recruiting bandits from lairs.
Engaging the Pictish raiders (should be near Farmland special location).
Clearing then revisiting Odin's Cave.
Releasing a caravan master to reveal other nearby caravans (requires 2 infamy) using the dialog option.
Create bandit parties from owned lairs (bring you money and prisoners). Pay to upgrade their party size.
Have these parties follow you using infamy.
Ship-stealing mission.

Changelog
Ship-stealing mission implemented (no restrictions for now).
Created parties can be ordered to follow you.
Ship bandit parties now recruitable.
Opcode errors when your bandits fight fixed.
Created bandits now have ships icons when on water.
Lair bandit recruit cost halved
Bandit merchant money halved
No more relation loss from talking to your created bandit parties.

Bugs/notes
-Requires starting a new game.
-All lairs are visible from the start for testing purposes.
-Pay no wages for troops stored at lairs.
-Ship stealing can be done multiple times.
 
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Also, I would recommend making the elite vikings both cheaper, lower level and with weaker weapon proficiency for balance. Its quite easy to recruit now (Guaranteed offer from lair) so they need to be nerfed a bit so that the elite troops from other factions can compete. I would put them on a similar level to norse elite spearmen with slightly higher wage (their bandits not sworn men) so that the best troops remain the household troops available to lords.

Ty for everything :smile:

PS: could you release the python modules or let me know which txt files aren't altered so I can use your tweaker with this?

EDIT: You mentioned earlier that infamy was lost by doing 'legit' actions. Does that include being a mercenary?
 

kraggrim

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WBM&BWF&SNWVC
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I was planning to rework the vikings into a more progressive troop-tree at some point, but it's a low priority I'm afraid. Should probably also give a chance of recruiting lesser vikings/bandits, or restrict the elite ones. I think I know how to do that.

I can't really release the ms until the devs do a proper release of it (what I'm using is just a preview), if I'm interpreting what I've been told right. And most of the files will be changed so you can't easily swap the text files from the other system in. I think just items, skills, quests and factions are untouched. And even then it might not be safe.
You might be able to adapt some of the text tweaks though with some concentration, especially if you use kalarhan's tweaks ms as a reference. But tbh I wouldn't get too invested in any campaign for this mod yet, until I get closer to a final version I won't be bothering to make updates compatible with previous version saves. Just adds a lot more hassle to the development process.

I mentioned that 'legit actions decreasing infamy' thing in the first post, but it's a planned feature (black text not green).  So you're fine to be a merc for now. I'd probably still let the player be a merc anyway, let me know how it plays out in practice.

And cheers for doing this testing :smile:.
 
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And cheers for doing this testing :smile:.
You're kidding right? Its only fair given what you've given this community that we help you out.. by playing more awesome features that you're putting in place. Makes me feel useful on this forum for once  :mrgreen:

And sorry should have checked.

Yeah I think merc should be allowed. Its in line with the historical context where bandits and mercenaries were often one and the same depending on the tides of war

In terms of working on a viking troop tree, I can give it a shot with the troop editor tool and try my first dabble into modding VC. see if that works. Don't know how to change recruitment but I'll start with trying to implement a viking troop tree and re-balancing those troops.

SUGGESTION: When you have caused huge damage to a certain faction, have a messenger from that faction offer gold in exchange for peace/become merc for opposite side. (Similar to how Wessex paid the Vikings to leave instead of killing them)

Let me know btw if you're welcoming suggestions. I keep throwing them at you without knowing if you want any :razz: