SP Dark Ages VC Balance Mod (saved game compatible)

Plasquar

Grandmaster Knight
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Tingyun said:
Thank you Brytenwalda Studios! They kindly featured Balance Mod on their Twitter and Steam accounts today. I am deeply grateful to them, both for having produced such a fun game to play, and for the profound influence that modding has had on my own life.

https://twitter.com/BrytenwaldaTeam/status/1192122362268979200
I just saw that as well.
It's always good to see that "big modders" and companies themselves acknowledge the work of other modders. 

:party:
 

Tingyun

Knight at Arms
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Thanks Plasquar, agreed, it was very nice of them. The VC dev team has always seemed to be a really great group in general (among other things, not many teams would continue supporting a game with new patches this long after release).
 

Hijodeleon

Recruit
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Regards.

On the first page of this Mod discussion, the balance of projectile troops was discussed.

The doubt of the good balance arose specifically in the troop of archers and they are compared with those of javelins. it was not even mentioned the slingers or stone shooters, although these are the first troops we obtain and with which we must win battles. It could be because they seem less important.

Tingyun responded very well to this question (in my opinion).

Although I am not an expert on the subject of modification, I consider that the projectile troops are very well balanced in everything related to them and I am really surprised how well they are balanced.

I consider that the use of these troops is essential in a stage of the game in which you do not have an army of elite troops, but that does not mean that it is an unusable army for it.

In VC basically the combat is not necessarily defined by the quality of the troops because the good use of inexperienced troops can lead to victory if the other factors that influence the battle are taken into account.

In this video we can see that neither the quality of the troops, nor that of the player's character, nor that of the player himself defined an overwhelming victory. If you want to see it.

With the good use of the land, the good use of the projectiles taking care of their quantity and quality, the maneuvers of the player (provocation, waste of enemy projectiles, positioning of the enemy army in combat), the formation and the orders given to the army not only Victory was achieved but also no casualties, although the enemy army was superior in quality.

In a frontal confrontation the enemy army would have devastated the player's army by the quality of its troops causing a total loss, although this one was superior in number. But it did not happen that way and it was very far from this thanks to the projectile troops, a combination of javelins, archers and mostly not even slingers but stone throwers, but above all: the good balance of the Mod.


 

Tingyun

Knight at Arms
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Hi Hijodeleon, thanks for posting your detailed feedback and video. Apologies that it took me this long to reply, just busy with work at Hooded Horse and I lost track of this message until now.
 

Muirhied

Recruit
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Hi there Tinyun. I'm currently wondering if Multiplayer for this mod would work out of the box if everyone was using the same version of it? I'm thinking if it works I could mod the multiplayer faction weapon slots so it can balance the gameplay and use some of the new weapons (or updated ones) you made. I currently have the resources to test the first idea out to see if your mod would run with multiplayer. I'm checking with you to make sure i'm not banging my head against the wall for a week.
Thanks,
- Muirhied
 
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Tingyun

Knight at Arms
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Hi Muirhied,

Nice to see you again here, hope you've been well!

I think multiplayer should work, as I didn't do anything that I'd expect could break it. But I haven't tested it myself.

If you do end up making such multiplayer modifications, I'd be glad to integrate them into Balance Mod for a future release if you'd like, and host a multiplayer patch before then.

Tim
 

Brujoloco

Sergeant
M&BWF&SWBNWVC
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Totally in love with this mod for VC! Decided to start a new playthrough after some years of being on a break to try it and been having a blast so far.

Completely love you can now begin building shrines to odin on villages and cities you dont own to begin the conversion.

So I have some questions, how long will a pictish town, fully 100% christian begin to see a shift in the villagers towards paganism? how many days? After about two months I am still not tolerated in scotland at all.

Also is there a way to turn Pictish troops into pagans? For RP and Morale purposes? If not within the game, what needs to be edited or tweaked to turn them Pagan? Same with companions within a party? Would love to see an option to turn lords religion applied to companions as well.

I know companions when turned into vassals switch religions sometimes, but wondering if the conversion topic can be applied to the dialogue when they are in your party.

All in all a very good mod! :smile:
 

Tingyun

Knight at Arms
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Totally in love with this mod for VC! Decided to start a new playthrough after some years of being on a break to try it and been having a blast so far.
Thanks Brujoloco! I very much enjoyed playing Brytenwalda using your Repolished mod, so I'm honored you liked my mod as well!

So I have some questions, how long will a pictish town, fully 100% christian begin to see a shift in the villagers towards paganism? how many days? After about two months I am still not tolerated in scotland at all.
It is very random, so hard to predict. But by making the shrine, you have tilted the balance and it will eventually go pagan (provided that you have also built the building that protects the shrine from riots--I think that's the mead hall in villages and the prison tower in towns, but the in-game descriptions of the buildings will identify this--always build the protective building as well or the riots will eventually cause the destruction of the shrine).

It is possible that the religion of the town has already shifted considerably towards paganism though--religion is on a 100 point scale in VC, while there are only a limited number of text narrative descriptions that describe a range of numbers (say, a given statement like "pagans are ____ here" might be used for anywhere between 20 to 40 for example). So you could have already shifted religion significantly on that 100 point scale without seeing a different text description.

Also is there a way to turn Pictish troops into pagans? For RP and Morale purposes? If not within the game, what needs to be edited or tweaked to turn them Pagan? Same with companions within a party? Would love to see an option to turn lords religion applied to companions as well.
Religion of troops unfortunately cannot be changed in game. I can't actually remember which file it is stored in--I think I remember that companion religion is defined in module_scripts.py, but it might be there or in another file, not sure. I also can't rememeber the details of companion religion changing.

If you wanted to change this in a current campaign though, as part of a roleplaying story rather than modding it from game start, you should use one of the warband saved game editors. I imagine it would be pretty easy to look up the pict troops and individually switch them from christian to pagan in the editor. Of course this would affect all instances of them, but that's the only way to do it anyway. You could do the same for companions.
 

Brujoloco

Sergeant
M&BWF&SWBNWVC
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Thanks Brujoloco! I very much enjoyed playing Brytenwalda using your Repolished mod, so I'm honored you liked my mod as well!
Haha, glad you liked my old Repolished Mod, it was a fun project for me, hence when I came back to Warband after a long hiatus and promptly discovered Rebalance and saw it already on version 12 was "I HAVE TO TRY THIS YAY" and it has been super fun! Keep updating it, it truly is quite well thought out. :smile:

If you wanted to change this in a current campaign though, as part of a roleplaying story rather than modding it from game start, you should use one of the warband saved game editors. I imagine it would be pretty easy to look up the pict troops and individually switch them from christian to pagan in the editor. Of course this would affect all instances of them, but that's the only way to do it anyway. You could do the same for companions.
Ahhh thanks for the explanation, yes, been spending quite some few Ks of Scillingas on building shrines and then schools and eventually mead halls ... So was more or less doing it correctly.

And yep, I will have to use the save game editor ... I really enjoy the RP playthroughs when you try to "Paganize" England.

As a new question is there a way to lessen the penalties of Monastery burnings on surrounding cities/villages that are pagan? Or case in point: Dubh Lin and its Two Villages"Leixhaulp" and "Hofud" every time I go burn Gleann da Loch and Finian , though Finian only lowers the villages.

I lose a ton of Dubh Lin and adjoining villages faction by burning the nearby monastery every few months, which is odd considering that particular town and the villages are predominantly pagan. People all over Ireland hate my guts and that is quite ok, but seeing Dubh Lin hate me for burning monasteries as I sell my slaves there is a bit ... odd.

To be honest I have zero qualms with being hated to the bone by all of England, Scotland and even Friese for burning the monasteries there, but Dubh Lin is a bit of a sore spot for me, so wondering if the nearby monastery can either give less penalties to faction to the two villages and the town or remove it altogether?

There is also a historical context for this request to remove the penalties, as Dublin was pretty much hardcore pagan surrounded by Christian Kingdoms and it was not until the year 1000 that the Burning of Thor Wood by the Irish happened, and by that time frame Dublin already had at least two generations of Christian Norsemen, but in the game current year, no burning of any monastery nearby should give that kind of penalty. By 876 for example there is a well documented case of the Ring of Thor used as a symbol of Oath Keeping/Binding by Viking Kings to King Alfred. The Sword of Carlus being the other classical symbol of the City which I love in real life and pretty "Pagan".

As a side note look into the life of Tomrair : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomrair , Dublin features there prominently

On the topic at hand It is not logical for Dubh Lin at least to lose faction, and the villages while debatable, should be exempt as well, I think :wink:

No monastery sacking should ever give a penalty to Dublin and the two adjoining villages, so wonder if it could be possible to remove the penalty for raiding Glean Da Loch and Finian. Finian being so far to the west still hits Leixhaulp and Hofud, which is also odd to me.

Wonder how the penalty to faction works when raiding, is it an specific area automatically tagging everything nearby or is it a tick of selected cities and villages near to the monastery? If the first perhaps it could be lowered? If the last can Dublin and the two villages be unticked? Just wondering.

Again just a suggestion for the sake of RP haha, but something I believe should not be there, but again I understand if it is too deeply within the Base Code or not of your interest to fix, I know how annoying "fixing" things in Warband can be.

All in all a big hug to you my friend! Enjoying your mod immensely! I am actually loving the slower speeds on sea and land, making me stick to certain areas of operation and releasing me of the always choosing skeids over all other ships just for the need of speed.

Cheers!🤗
 

Tingyun

Knight at Arms
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Hi Brujoloco,

You can certainly mod the monastery penalty--I can't remember exactly which file controls it, but maybe module_scripts.py, if not check the other files and you'll find it soon enough.

You make some great points, though I do tend to think there is a strong argument for the current effects.

The norse were relatively recent arrivals at this point, and native gaelic peoples had settled in the area of Dubh Lin for thousands of years. Archeological records indicate the town of Dubh Lin as modeled by VC encompasses two towns:

"It is now thought that the Viking settlement was preceded by a Christian ecclesiastical settlement known as Duiblinn, from which Dyflin took its name. Beginning in the 9th and 10th century, there were two settlements where the modern city stands. The Viking settlement of about 841 was known as Dyflin, from the Irish Duiblinn (or "Black Pool", referring to a dark tidal pool where the River Poddle entered the Liffey on the site of the Castle Gardens at the rear of Dublin Castle), and a Gaelic settlement, Áth Cliath ("ford of hurdles") was further upriver, at the present day Father Mathew Bridge at the bottom of Church Street.[1] The Celtic settlement's name is still used as the Irish name of the modern city, though the first written evidence of it is found in the Annals of Ulster of 1368.[2] The modern English name came from the Viking settlement of Dyflin, which derived its name from the Irish Duiblinn." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Dublin#Founding_and_early_history

The villages, representing more rural peoples, were likely in large part christian at this time, at least more so than the town. In general Balance Mod has defined religion levels for each settlement, generally following the theory that Norse penetration into the British isles would not yet have become mass immigration of settlers and farmers (though a few villages are modeled as such to reflect the possibility of some of that). Accordingly, most villages under Norse control are heavily christian, reflecting conquered peoples, while the castles are more heavily Norse, reflecting greater penetration into areas dominated by military seats of power, and the towns are done case by case based on their history, with many having a large Christian element ruled by a Norse conquering elite.

As for the faction relation loss, it largely reflects the same idea as why the Jarl in the storyline in Frisia wants you to play nice with the local monastery. Norse kings are worried about upsetting their Christian population, even in places where norse might be dominant.

There's also the old conflict between Norse kings interested in centralizing power and the more unstable elements of society, vikings and such--Harald Fairhair of course is the greatest example in that conflict, but in general, I'd expect most Norse kings to be very unhappy with anyone going viking in the vicinity of their territory. Even where they might tolerate it or even reward it, they will not want that unstable influence operating in their backyard. Moreover, it's likely they have at least some dealings with the local monasteries (else why haven't they themselves burned and robbed them), or are afraid that the actions you take might be perceived as their responsibility by some Christian kingdoms nearby (as even when warring with one or several, they probably are trying to have at least passable relations with a few).

Anyway, that's the reason it still works that way--though you are of course welcome to disagree and mod it to whatever best fits your own view of how it should work. Ultimately, it's all guesses about a period of time when we don't have great historical records.

Great to hear you are enjoying the realistic speeds--encouraging a more local base of operations and making the world feel larger was certainly the goal!
 

Vikingur

Sergeant
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And yep, I will have to use the save game editor ... I really enjoy the RP playthroughs when you try to "Paganize" England.

As a new question is there a way to lessen the penalties of Monastery burnings on surrounding cities/villages that are pagan? Or case in point: Dubh Lin and its Two Villages"Leixhaulp" and "Hofud" every time I go burn Gleann da Loch and Finian , though Finian only lowers the villages.
So one of the first things I did when I finally got my hands on the module source, was to start fixing exactly that. In the beginning, I basically just copied and pasted alot of the code that has to do with your Refuge. Adding a menu option on the “Leave” menu page(after its been plundered) to remove/demolish the Monastery. I’ve no idea where the radius for Monastery’s and Hofs are stored in the text. easiest way is to just used that Save Game Editor and move the Monastery’s location.
 
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@Tingyun hi! How are u doing?
Sorry for off-topic, but as an experienced modder perhaps you know how I can change shield's back color? What file do I have to work with? I want to create custom banner on "extra" banner's basis, but so far I only managed to change the "face" of the shields, and both banners (extra#, extra#a, extra#b) Thanks in advance!

P.S. Since u have enhanced Norse troop tree so much, what do u think about implementing norse women troop tree either?
 
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Vikingur

Sergeant
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@Tingyun hi! How are u doing?
Sorry for off-topic, but as an experienced modder perhaps you know how I can change shield's back color? What file do I have to work with? I want to create custom banner on "extra" banner's basis, but so far I only managed to change the "face" of the shields, and both banners (extra#, extra#a, extra#b) Thanks in advance!

P.S. Since u have enhanced Norse troop tree so much, what do u think about implementing norse women troop tree either?
IMHO, it’s kind of a pain to edit Vanillia VC shields. Several texture and material files, then there is the vertex colouring...etc. It’s much easier just to create your own from scratch and add them into the game. BRF edit is just an amazing tool, and it can do so much by itself. If you’d like some step by step, PM me. I’ll do my best to help.