In Progress Vassal Defection Takes Fief With It

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1.5.4
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No, I didn't use any mods.

TechnoSarge

Veteran
I'm listing this as a bug because
- When you leave a kingdom's service, you lose every fief you've earned.
- When you convince a lord to leave his kingdom and join yours, he loses every fief his clan owns.

So when you have a scurrilous, poxy, raving-lunatic ingrate leave your service - he should not take your kingdom's fief(s) with him!

This happened to me last night: I convinced Gyphor to join me and he left Aserai, forgoing his fiefs. Gyphor didn't have a party at that time, so he wasn't in the army I assembled; I was headed to Vlandia. Once there, I took Ostican, and my Council awarded it to Gyphor... which shot his Relation with me to 87.

Then I sallied my army forth to snag a Vlandian party hanging about nearby, and we disposed of it. I took the army back into Ostican to heal the many wounded still left from the siege. While "Waiting" in Ostican, it suddenly turned red. The log said Gyphor had turned his coat to Vlandia. And there he was, buzzing around the entrance with his party of 20.

KVU41oS.jpg


Now, in my opinion, having a vassal quit me when our relations are very high, and he has just received largesse, should not happen. And doubly so with ME and MY ARMY ensconced in the town he was awarded... especially when known Vlandians weren't even around to put "the questions" to Gyphor (because we were at war) - THAT qualifies as a bug. But I bet the devs don't think so.

So here is another issue: ME and MY ARMY of 654 healthy troops are sitting in Ostican. Gyphor and his 19 men have wigged out. The defenders FOR VLANDIA are the garrison troops I PERSONALLY installed from MY WARPARTY, and who I expect are still loyal to me, and a few militia. THE GAME only permits me to exit the town and then besiege it to get it back. I'm sorry, but my 654 men are IN POSSESSION and should hardly need to leave and fight to come back in.

Yes, the capital letters mean I am pissed. And I intend to back up the world to a previous save and restart it and give Gyphor no chance to play turncoat at Ostican.

Yes, I have a save, taken at the time I did the screenshot - just after Gyphor's perfidy. I will upload it and reference this thread. But it's the code that's always been there that needs to be changed, because it
- plays differently when the player's noble defects than any other situation
- does not take account of who is in physical possession of a fief, rather than just a political transfer.
 

JPA32

Recruit
I believe the way it works is that if you betray a faction while you are at war you will take your settlements with you. This applies to AI lords too. Last situation I've had this happen was back in the early beta so it may be different now but assuming nothing has changed since then that's how it should be functioning.
 

Flesson19

Not a Cookie
Knight
I'm listing this as a bug because
- When you leave a kingdom's service, you lose every fief you've earned.
- When you convince a lord to leave his kingdom and join yours, he loses every fief his clan owns.

So when you have a scurrilous, poxy, raving-lunatic ingrate leave your service - he should not take your kingdom's fief(s) with him!

This happened to me last night: I convinced Gyphor to join me and he left Aserai, forgoing his fiefs. Gyphor didn't have a party at that time, so he wasn't in the army I assembled; I was headed to Vlandia. Once there, I took Ostican, and my Council awarded it to Gyphor... which shot his Relation with me to 87.

Then I sallied my army forth to snag a Vlandian party hanging about nearby, and we disposed of it. I took the army back into Ostican to heal the many wounded still left from the siege. While "Waiting" in Ostican, it suddenly turned red. The log said Gyphor had turned his coat to Vlandia. And there he was, buzzing around the entrance with his party of 20.

KVU41oS.jpg


Now, in my opinion, having a vassal quit me when our relations are very high, and he has just received largesse, should not happen. And doubly so with ME and MY ARMY ensconced in the town he was awarded... especially when known Vlandians weren't even around to put "the questions" to Gyphor (because we were at war) - THAT qualifies as a bug. But I bet the devs don't think so.

So here is another issue: ME and MY ARMY of 654 healthy troops are sitting in Ostican. Gyphor and his 19 men have wigged out. The defenders FOR VLANDIA are the garrison troops I PERSONALLY installed from MY WARPARTY, and who I expect are still loyal to me, and a few militia. THE GAME only permits me to exit the town and then besiege it to get it back. I'm sorry, but my 654 men are IN POSSESSION and should hardly need to leave and fight to come back in.

Yes, the capital letters mean I am pissed. And I intend to back up the world to a previous save and restart it and give Gyphor no chance to play turncoat at Ostican.

Yes, I have a save, taken at the time I did the screenshot - just after Gyphor's perfidy. I will upload it and reference this thread. But it's the code that's always been there that needs to be changed, because it
- plays differently when the player's noble defects than any other situation
- does not take account of who is in physical possession of a fief, rather than just a political transfer.
If you convince a lord to leave they surrender all fiefs, but if you convince a lord to leave while at war with them, then they bring it with them, it is the same when you leave a kingdom in a sense, if you leave and surrender all fiefs you are fine, but if you take them they declare war so a somewhat similar situation, not exactly the same, but I would assume if they implement you getting the fiefs to come along when you convince them then they would declare war on you, and for me I care more about the clans than their fiefs, we can capture those, but to stay at peace and take 2 or 3 clans from them and still stay at peace that is more valuable than getting their fiefs, and that's why you pay so much to get them, it is compensation to the clan for surrendering their fiefs when they leave.
 

TechnoSarge

Veteran
If you convince a lord to leave they surrender all fiefs, but if you convince a lord to leave while at war with them, then they bring it with them, it is the same when you leave a kingdom in a sense, if you leave and surrender all fiefs you are fine, but if you take them they declare war so a somewhat similar situation, not exactly the same, but I would assume if they implement you getting the fiefs to come along when you convince them then they would declare war on you, and for me I care more about the clans than their fiefs, we can capture those, but to stay at peace and take 2 or 3 clans from them and still stay at peace that is more valuable than getting their fiefs, and that's why you pay so much to get them, it is compensation to the clan for surrendering their fiefs when they leave.
I'm not sure what you are saying. I had no choice that I remember to "leave the Kingdom, declare war, and take my fiefs with me." I haven't seen any choices to "leave the Kingdom for an existing enemy and take my fiefs with me" either. This is what Gyphor has done, in my game.

Yes, I am interested in removing the clans from the rival's lineup and putting them into mine. I accept I get them bare of fiefs and I pay them for that loss. I object to giving a choice to an AI lord that is not available in the game to me, and I call that a bug.
 

Flesson19

Not a Cookie
Knight
I'm not sure what you are saying. I had no choice that I remember to "leave the Kingdom, declare war, and take my fiefs with me." I haven't seen any choices to "leave the Kingdom for an existing enemy and take my fiefs with me" either. This is what Gyphor has done, in my game.

Yes, I am interested in removing the clans from the rival's lineup and putting them into mine. I accept I get them bare of fiefs and I pay them for that loss. I object to giving a choice to an AI lord that is not available in the game to me, and I call that a bug.
what happens is when you leave a kingdom you can keep your holdings and then keep all fiefs but that kingdom declares war on you, of coruse you need to be clan tier 4 for that since that is what is needed to make your own kingdom, or you can relinquish all your fiefs so they keep them and you are peaceful with them but lose some relation.
 

Khan Aran

Recruit
I'm not sure what you are saying. I had no choice that I remember to "leave the Kingdom, declare war, and take my fiefs with me." I haven't seen any choices to "leave the Kingdom for an existing enemy and take my fiefs with me" either.
I'm not sure if it's in the clan or kingdom menu, but in one of them at the top is the option to abandon kingdom, which then lets you have the option of taking fiefs or not. If you've been using dialog to leave the kingdom you don't get that option(because then you would leave that meeting without a head attached to your shoulders)

As for guy abandoning you, I don't think most of the relationship dynamics have been implemented.

So here is another issue: ME and MY ARMY of 654 healthy troops are sitting in Ostican. Gyphor and his 19 men have wigged out. The defenders FOR VLANDIA are the garrison troops I PERSONALLY installed from MY WARPARTY, and who I expect are still loyal to me, and a few militia. THE GAME only permits me to exit the town and then besiege it to get it back. I'm sorry, but my 654 men are IN POSSESSION and should hardly need to leave and fight to come back in
I think this is more easy game mechanics. What happens when your X faction has an army in your town and they declare war? It really wouldn't make sense for them to just take it. If that was a concern you wouldn't let them in in the first place. Now you could add some clever designs so it only triggers under certain circumstances, like your situation, which might be nice, but it's not essential(especially if they fix the actual problems, like relationship).
 

MArdA TaleWorlds

Community Support & Localization
Community Support
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
Forwarded to the QA team for further investigation. We will reach out again if we need more information. Thanks for reporting and sorry for any inconvenience!
 

Trueten

Section Moderator
WBVC
As for guy abandoning you, I don't think most of the relationship dynamics have been implemented.
It sure isn't. It seems that relation has nothing to do with it.

I decided to declare war on Sturgia by myself and form my own kingdom.

I conquered cities and castler from west to east. Recruited some lords/clans from sturgia. None of them brought any fief with them.
And then I've captured Sibir.
Gave it to Lord X.
In a few days Sibir turned red and the Lord X betrayed me back to Sturgia.

I then recruited another Lord Y, took Sibir and gave it to Y. Afterwards I've invested all my influence points to promote all clans to 70-80i, reaching up to +80 relations. And yet Lord Y betrayed me taking Sibir. Again.

So I finished the war in a week.And then met this Lord Y (neutral sturgian) in the field, recruited him. Again. And he did not bring Sibir with him.

It's a bit frightening to give some lord two fiefs now. Risking to give it back to your enemy in a single moment without a single blow.
 

TechnoSarge

Veteran
I have never recruited perfidious Gyphor again. He maintains a very high relationship number with me.

No other lords have been so stupid as to leave my winning kingdom. So I have no idea if I'm "still experiencing this issue." Does that mean someone changed code to prevent it, and I'm to verify that, or does it mean "No one did anything to fix this but are you still pissed about it?"
 

Ananda_The_Destroyer

Master Knight
No other lords have been so stupid as to leave my winning kingdom. So I have no idea if I'm "still experiencing this issue." Does that mean someone changed code to prevent it, and I'm to verify that, or does it mean "No one did anything to fix this but are you still pissed about it?"
I'm very interested in the answer to this :smile:

What also bothers me is this: For the player, recruiting a lord with a fief during war is very costly, however it doesn't seem that the AI ruler expends anything when a Lord defects from the player and takes it's fiefs to the enemy. I know we're getting into magical free horses territory here, but I don't think the AI should get free lords and fiefs.
 
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