v1.2.4-v1.2.5 Balance Changes

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Making throwing more accurate and harder to punish makes me afraid we're going to slide back to the Jereed meta where people were running around with 24 Jereeds and nothing else. Throwing axes deal ALOT of damage to things such as horses, and are very easy to hit even at the moment. I guess an accuracy buff isn't the worst thing to make them more consistent, and the shield damage nerf is honestly pretty great combined with that. The total damage on those things is criminal in the right circumstances though.

I'm also a bit worried about the horse dismount mechanic, especially on light cav. With 70 damage required on heavy cavalry, I don't see it being as impactful, but 50 for light cav is a pretty normal number to see in cav duels, and will most likely make cavalry avoid those more and more as time goes on. And on the topic of cav, it's really hard to tell at this point how the riding skill changes are gonna change things, but archers on horses continue to be a problem, and I don't really see this fixing it. We will have to see though.

I find the Imperial Heavy axe length change curious. It will either be a major buff to one of the best infantry classes in the game, or it will inadvertently nerf the unit due to causing them to actually hilt hit like some of the other axes. Right now the Legionary is THE best heavy infantry in closed spaces and amazing at hugging other units due to the speed and short length of their axes.

I also don't think improving the hunter perk for archers is a necessary change. Archer is already the best counter to cav running rampant on the field, and this will only make it easier to one or two hit horses. Especially with Vlandian crossbows, which will almost guarantee a one hit on a horse coming towards you.
Thanks so much for the explanations, having good points there!
I'm aware of throwing weapon damage issues. With the beta results, we can easily decrease the damages if needed, especially for the throwing axes.
Non-cav archers will have a lot of penalties on horse so basically being on foot instead will be a better option for them. And also, they will easily get dismounted because their resistances are really low. So i don't think it will cause any issues. About light cavs, there are a lot of feedbacks there, will take a look at that.
Axes in general still need a bit of adjustment, so i'll look up to Imperial heavy axe with the others again. My main concern was actually making it a bit useless on closed spaces and encourage to use it in a different way. It may be problematic tho, i can understand that :grin: Hunter perk tho, well, archer damage on horses itself are not enough to create an upper-hand for the ranged classes, along with the new changes. So if we end-up having re-adjustments, i'll take another look at that if needed :smile:
I dont know what people expect from 1 guy, he buffed sturgia and khuzait (2 lowest wr factions) and did slight vlandia nerf.
Horses buffed, hunter perk buffed as a counter weight.
Horse knockdown - good change, as 13 damage threshhold was reached so rarely people actually though knockdown was removed from the game entirely.
Rider dismount - that is a questionable change. Of course it depends on the chances to dismount but once again lifts the value of the light cav above heavy option. Why would you go heavy cav if you can be dismounted by cheaper class in 1 random 20 damage hit...
Anyway, patch is in the right direction, keep it up!
Thanks for the kind words ^^
Not gonna comment on the other things, as it is fair to change things and worth a "test" if not prolonged if it isn't fit and a nice surprise seeing mp getting updates.

The only thing i worry about, from a skirmish viewpoint, the empire axe is already very good, high damage against heavy armor and 1 shot if it's a headshot on majority light units and really easy to "spam" with because of swing speed.

Making the axe better would rule out all the other options for the empire heavy unit, its nice having the choice between mace, sword and axe. Where they all have their own role, like breaking shields, damaging high armor units, etc, instead of one being better than all.
Not to mention the fact that the empire axe is already one of the better weapons to pick from, besides its reach, which was the only thing that made it "balanced enough" for me.
yea got a lot of questions with this. I'll definetly keep that in mind.
 
I wouldn't be surprised if Vlandia still remains to be good at everything tbh.

I personally haven't had too many issues playing as or against Khuzait myself, though I think what Sturgia needs regarding buffs is additional blunt weapons, since one can already imagine the outcome of a Sturgia v Vlandia matchup

Unfortunately, TaleWorlds seems insistent on making the Varyag an axe specialist. I think blunt weapons can come in the form of Brigand and Hunter buffs.

Brigand could probably get a small baton similar to the Khuzait Infantry Club as an "Improved Armor" weapon, where it's sub-optimal against light infantry, shock troops, and light archers

Hunter because the Sturgian Sword from the Shield perk downgrades the Raider Axe. Being able to deal blunt damage might be worth not having a longbow.
Got my eye on Sturgia aswell. No worries :shifty:
Think most of these changes are positive. The cav dismount mechanic for me could be interesting if done well, it will punish archers and inf that mount horses. I agree with Hancock that cav might wanna get a little more resistance. The only other concern I have is the jav change, the stun while being non intuitive was a good mechanic that punished people for being greedy. If you believe that mechanic was bad for new players than you need something else to discourage people from having javs held all the time.
Thank you, well it was changed because it felt really unnatural to limit people using their shields really. If it creates an unbalanced upperhand to skirmishers, we could always take a look at the damage outputs and try to make it proper there ^^
Renamed the bows given by the Steppe Bow Khuzait class’ individual perks and slightly modified their statistics.
Renamed 3 spears (Khuzait Long Infantry Spear, Sturgian Long Infantry Spear, Battanian Long Infantry Spear) provided with the Cavalry Breaker perks and slightly adjusted their statistics.

Would it be possible to know what about their statistics got changed?
Nothing major really, melees are almost not changed ( like +1 -1 kind of stat changes ) and bows on the other hand having kind of an advantage for their accuracy and based on their primary bow stats ( speed and damage mainly. ) to make them different then any other standard bows.
 
As I've already said elsewhere - I think pretty much all of these changes are good, but I am worried about the dismounting thing.

Without having tested it myself, I would say the resistance for light cav needs to be at least 70, and heavy cav should be increased a little as well.

More importantly than that is that, IMO, this ability should not be given to cavalry classes. Like the first time around, this will lead to many situations where you get a good hit in on an opponent, he gets dismounted, and then you get to kill him for free. This is no fun.

If you are set on introducing this mechanic, I think infantry should have the ability to do it (I like having it on twohanders - maybe also consider giving it to Pikes to improve them as well. Spears could get it too, but not in combination with the cavalry breaker perk IMO.) but not cavalry/mounted people*. It's not only no fun for cav vs cav fights, it would also result in any other perk in the same slot as the dismounting one never be picked.


Downloading the beta at the moment, hoping to give things a test this evening or so.


* I guess some people may argue realism here, but lets face it: This is not a sim-game, and gameplay/balance >> realism.
 
I doubt anyone will agree with what I've to say but I still think the Recruit could be looked at again. I'm hoping that the Javelin changes will make him less insufferable to play as, though I anticipate that Spatha/Specialist will remain to be the only perk selection worth using. IMO, I think he needs the following:

Strong Arm replaced with Farmer
- Javelin (3) is not subject to any replacement
- Grants a One-handed Pitchfork. Has 180 reach and can be used one-handed, but it's slower than other spears of a similar reach, and its base damage sits at the low 20s
- Used for non-captain modes. The Pila is still available in Captain

Considering how terrible the Pila is at stabbing horses, I've only ever seen it used as an admittedly unreliable source of one-hit kill damage, and throwing it will leave you naked. IMO, the Recruit should still have the worst anti-cav options out of all other peasant units since he also has a quiver of javelins for fighting infantry or dismounted horsemen, but I think it should actually be serviceable for that job. And based on my past experience with BL MP, 180 seems to be the absolute bare minimum required for a one-handed spear to competently stab cavalry (Yeah, I know the Strugian Warrior's spear could also use improvement, but that's for another conversation)

Shield Wall replaced with ?????
Unsure how the Shield perk could be revisited, but if i'm being realistic, a recruit will rarely ever live long enough to see his shield take more than 80 damage. Perhaps an axe perk would make more sense, and things could be handwaved as the conscript having been a lumberjack during his life before conscription. IIRC, "bonus damage to shields" as a perk bonus also applies to both melee and ranged attacks, which could allow an archer/recruit 2v1 to better fight around an enemy's shield. Perhaps the Woodsplitter Axe currently on the Sturgian Brigand could work as a perk axe?

Footwork replaced with Survivalist
Accuracy bonus while moving reduced from 80% to 45%
Grants +5 Armor

You know what i said about the 130 HP shield being useless? This perk makes the stronger shield seem useful in comparison, especially since you're still stuck with 10 armor and the second worst melee weapon in the game. You'll still have the second worst weapon melee weapon in the game, though you'll at least have as much armor as other factions' peasants. The extra armor should at least make the Rapid Throws perk worth using, since you might actually live long enough to make use of the larger quiver's higher total damage. I think the +5 armor could be handwaved as not being actual armor, but rather an increased will to live, similarly to how a Sturgian Berserker's resistance to pain gives acts as an increase in armor rating.
 
*ehem*
Add friendly fire to siege/tdm.
Thank you

Also good job on these changes. I think that the game's potential lies in it's more casual, large player count gamemodes. A shame that the loudest pepole on the forums are competitve players
 
You introduce stances and put more things to spend money on, when you earn like 20 denars for a match of 30 minutes. Who the hell is going to buy anything other than people that live in this game?
 
As I've already said elsewhere - I think pretty much all of these changes are good, but I am worried about the dismounting thing.

Without having tested it myself, I would say the resistance for light cav needs to be at least 70, and heavy cav should be increased a little as well.

More importantly than that is that, IMO, this ability should not be given to cavalry classes. Like the first time around, this will lead to many situations where you get a good hit in on an opponent, he gets dismounted, and then you get to kill him for free. This is no fun.

If you are set on introducing this mechanic, I think infantry should have the ability to do it (I like having it on twohanders - maybe also consider giving it to Pikes to improve them as well. Spears could get it too, but not in combination with the cavalry breaker perk IMO.) but not cavalry/mounted people*. It's not only no fun for cav vs cav fights, it would also result in any other perk in the same slot as the dismounting one never be picked.


Downloading the beta at the moment, hoping to give things a test this evening or so.


* I guess some people may argue realism here, but lets face it: This is not a sim-game, and gameplay/balance >> realism.

this is good, pls dont castrate cav duels no ***** gaming
 
I know I've heard some complaints on these forums about the Knight being too strong cuz their mounts are too tanky, but I feel like they need some adjustments outside that.

I know no one wants to see them buffed, but I... actually don't find them enjoyable to play as tbh, and part of that is the weapon they carry alongside their polearm. I think it'd be worth it to consider a "Mounted Infantry" perk to replace the admittedly useless Guardian. Perhaps this would allow for Knights to better defend themselves while dismounted, while introducing some downsides to using it?

Guardian replaced with Mounted Infantry
- Vlandian Long Lance replaced with Vlandian Long Spear
- Your horse loses 3 armor (stacks with Flanker)
- Vlandian Cavalry Sword replaced with Vlandian Axe
- Shield upgraded to Kite Shield (Voulgier)

You no longer have a couchable lance, and your cav vs cav utility is also worse, but you instead get a 92 speed axe that's still long enough that you can swing it from horseback, and your shield has better vertical coverage
 
I'm not sure if you are confused these changes with SP but if not, sergeant was having best armor amongst the other heavy inf units :grin:

Thanks for the feedbacks ^^ No actually non-cav archers having a really bad time with all the riding penalties now. It is the other way around :smile:

Yep will take a look at it again if people continue to have problem with the Light cav units.
Thanks for actually responding. When will the beta be able to be tested by the public?
 
Please buff for Sturgian achers with better aroww or bow . They too weak :ohdear:
The new buff is not enough
 
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On the topic of Captain AI, skirmisher throwing spears are of questionable usefulness since they also double as the unit's horse stabber, and not having them will make it much harder to defend against cavalry. Perhaps it'd be worth it for spear chuckers to prioritize throwing their javelins first before switching to their throwing spears? While human reaction time and network latency wouldn't stop all of them from throwing their throwing spears, the player would at least be able to use the "hold fire" command soon enough that a throwing spear unit can still have some spears to melee horses with.
 
I can understand that your opinion on adding "variety" and its like a personal opinion i can accept, but some of the concerns you are having is not accurate because you are just talking in regards of the numbers/explanations that are given.
I'm ok with your opinion and feedbacks on dismount, cause it's, well, pretty explanatory with its name only :p but for example, about knockdowns, the actual changes are soo little that even if i didn't mention them on the changelog, you may probably missed it in the actual gameplay.
So that's why i'm asking you guys to test it out before making any decisions.
Other than that, i'm completely open for feedbacks and changing the problematic parts in regards of players' concerns, no problem :smile:

There are some cool feedbacks to look up, even they are not related with the current changes :grin: So i'll note them up to investigate furthermore.
Some points i disagree with tho, firstly, most of these changes are actually gathered from competitive scene feedbacks. So regardless some of the newly introduced things are hard to "get used to" , most of them actually will fix unbalanced situations that especially causing problems on the competitive events. ( khuzait being underpowered, abusing stab animations, head&neck pierce damage multiplier etc. )
Secondly, i can understand that you could having hard time with some systems, like shields, kick slashes, shields not protecting feets etc. But these are some of the things that defines the games "feel" Like they are not altered or anything, this is how it is in the core gameplay :grin: Not all shields should cover the feet, cause well, then infantry will be invincible or you should get kicked and damaged *if* you are not paying enough attention. These are the things that adding dimensions and flavor to the game basically. So i'm not sure if all of the things you mentioned are fixable when it comes to that :smile: Thanks for all the comments, i'll take notes from problematic situations you've mentioned.
I played 4k hours in Warband and 2k hour in BL.

For a good competitive game, random thing need to be reduced. The excuse to said "you having hard time" its not ok. If the system is bad everybody have hard times, its not a question about feelings or ego. I play in div A with my bro's, we enjoy the game in competitive and we just want enjoy more and make the game more skillfull and less random.
If you play warband you know shooting in the feets its not easy, and inf are not invicible. You have wrong. The way to kill an inf is warband is better and more competitive, you can :
- Bump stab him
- Bump and help your teammate to kill him
- Turn in for your shooter
- Chamber him
- Double spam him
- Range him
- ect...

In BL you have the same point except :
- Bump in not usefull for teamplay
- Turn an inf for your shoot its risky coz projectile are so slow. When you shoot in the inf fight the situation can change so fast. In warband if a shoot hit your teammate its your fault coz projectiles are fastr enought.
- In BL Kick Slash is more easy to do (ok we can debate on it, its not a bad or a good mecanic. Its skillfull and diferent)
- Shooting the inf feet to death (there is nothing skillfull at it, its so easy, and inf have no chance, and cav dismount with little shield... no way x) )

Last point shield directionnal system its a good idea at the begining but its not working properly. Changing shield direction is so slow sometime, release your right bouton and you take the hit. its more slower than block with sword. Hit box is strange too. The solution is the same as warband, mooving and turning for blocking. And if you have time, re-adjust direction. But its very random. Random in competitive is not a good idea, and its frustrating. The best needs to win, not the more lucky guy. When you play again very good player, this "protection" problem is really frustrating. Taking a hit you see and you try to block, but your shield hit box said NO... Its the same in cav duel, what poke dont cancel the ennemy hit. You are the first to hit, its mean you are better than him in timing and range, but you getting sanctionned by the poke because you are better than him x)...

The real problem its about balance. Cav are overpowered, and increase damage to horse its the lazy solution. The real solution is to upgrade shoot by projectile speed, and aim precision. And in conscequence upgrade shield covering for inf, because if shoot is more efficient inf feets going to suffer more. Most of the cav player have bad decision making and just spam in inf fight, because they know they are faster, more mobile, have more HP with horse HP, have more range, shoot is to slow to destroy them as warband, piker poke everytime in close fight, they deal good damage. I know TW solution is to reduce cav damage, but its the lazy solution. Its a really really bad solution, because its liking said to cav "You want make more damage ? Ok just spam more and play more agressive. Dont need to be smarter, you need to hit more. Dont team play or increase you decisionmaking and awarness."
If shooter is more powerfull, cav need to play less agressive and need to be smarter.


Last problem, is its to hard to kill a "noob" (not totally a nood) player in BL. The skill cap is lower than warband. The only mechanic to killing fast a beginner who holding is shield, is kick slash if he hold his shield. You cant chamber, double spam or something else.
In BL everyone can kill every one, with luck.
In warband you can play 100 rounds against a top player like Maximou, if you are not good as duel, you will never win more than 2-3 rounds. In Bannerlord you can win 20-30. The game is more random and less punitive. Its not fair for competitive.
 
Many of these changes also applies to SP (e.g kick, Melee pierce headshot). What are you doing?
Reduced the Head and Neck pierce damage multiplier from 2.0 to 1.7 for all melee thrust attacks.
This is not true. I've checked your code (MultiplayerAgentApplyDamageModel And SandboxAgentApplyDamageModel).GetDamageMultiplierForBodyPart. It's 1.5 instead of 1.7.
 
Please buff cavalry factions (khuzaits and aserais) and 2handed factions (Sturgia, Battania, aserais) in Siege mod, khuzaits there have almost zero chances to win) price drop for 2h-ers for Sturgia, Battania and Aserai, and price drop for spearmen, cavalry and heavy archers for Khuzaits can solve the problem (Siege mod only problemo)
 
This is not true. I've checked your code (MultiplayerAgentApplyDamageModel And SandboxAgentApplyDamageModel).GetDamageMultiplierForBodyPart. It's 1.5 instead of 1.7.
Correct, adjusted the patch notes. 1.5 is actually the intended value. Thanks for the heads up.
 
Correct, adjusted the patch notes. 1.5 is actually the intended value. Thanks for the heads up.
Not only this. Can you tell me why these changes also apply to Singleplayer? Is it intended or a bug? The patch notes put these changes in Multiplayer section. If it's intended, then it should be placed at the "Both" section.
 
  • (Already in v1.2.3) Players that have a throwable weapon can now block with a shield without getting staggered. Trying to throw the weapon will, however, still stagger you.
This is also incredible. We of the Most Revered Order of Skirmishers thank you.

I maintain that Throwing troops should be immune to the proximity allergy that bows and crossbows have, on the grounds that they actually do have a hand to hand weapon in their hand, but this is a very reasonable middle ground.
It is very funny in the case of Throwing Axes especially, you have to twirl the axe around a little and then become immune to sneezes.
 
Yeah, good change with throwing weapons.

Also considered slowing down crossbow readying time? Trying to stagger them often results in getting kickshot because they ready and shoot so damn fast.
Maybe consider removing stagger all together but speed up shield bash so it becomes more viable against held attacks/shots and fully steps into the gap that chambers have left.
 
Not only this. Can you tell me why these changes also apply to Singleplayer? Is it intended or a bug? The patch notes put these changes in Multiplayer section. If it's intended, then it should be placed at the "Both" section.
You were right. Some of the changes apply to Singleplayer as well. We've moved them into Both in the Patch Notes and Hotfixes threads.
 
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