US Cavalry Uniform

[Skandinav]

Good day,

I have a question concerning the use of uniforms of the US Cavalry, and especially the iconic hats worn by these, in your excellent mod.
Now, I am no expert on the history of late 19th century US army equipment, but I haven't failed to notice, when reading up on the various sources, that most contemporary photographs portray US cavalry soldiers with wide-brimmed, "cow-boy" hats, and rarely the army hat ( cap ) that they use so widely in your mod - is this some misconception on my part ( and yes I know that they were hardly uniform in this period ) or would the historical accuracy of your mod benefit from including a wider range of head-gear for the US Cavalry ?

Thank you for your time

An aside :

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( and damn, US history sure is savage and cruel, I pity the native americans, and it is a strange to think that it is in the very dirty years of this mod, and the Wild West, that my home region of Scandinavia actually had its most revered cultural advances in litterature and art )

 

[LCJr]

Sockeye is working on campaign hats.

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I too find it very sad and disturbing the atrocities inflicted on the native populations by European immigrants.

 

[HunterAlpha1]

so far the hats with the highest stats i've seen so far are the fur hat and the mexican kapo, both with 6 head armour.  I for one would really like to see a kepi (the Civil War hats worn by the U.S. cavalry in this mod) with the same stats, and preferable a Confederate variant, since i like to dress my char and all my companions as a small squad of Confederate cavalry. 

also there is really no reason there shouldn't be any, since neither the kapo, kepi, or fur hats would realistically offer any more or less protection than either of the others.

 

[Captain Pyjama Shark]

Can we have at least some of the U.S. troopers wear the kepi without the veil?  Right now they all do.

 

[Skandinav]

Sockeye is working on campaign hats.

Good to hear, thank you the quick answer.

Perhaps change the "Hat" part of the items "Cavalry Hat" and "Confederate Hat" to "Kepi", in thread with the correctly named mexican shako's already in the mod ? A minor detail, though, that isn't important in any way.

Also, quite a few of my lower tier soldiers ( as the U.S ) fights entirely without hats, and while making trooper appearance more varied, wouldn't this be very unrealistic, and wouldn't giving them a selection of hats be more appropriate ? I mean, who wouldn't protect his head from the sun, especially in an era where hats were considered highly fashionable ?

Can we have at least some of the U.S. troopers wear the kepi without the veil?  Right now they all do.

No, while many do, there are some with kepi's without veil.

 

[Captain Pyjama Shark]

Never seen one, excepting officers.

 

[TrentSteel]

Good evening!

About the hats...
In the early periode after Civil War to early 1870s, the Kepi/Bummer Kepi was worn most of the time in/for Garrison duty. Out in the field, they wore mostly a mix of Slouch hats, Hardee Hats, and a mix of different Kepi types.

"Campaign hats" where the 1858 issued "Hardee Hat" additonaly to the Kepi/bummer Kepi(for forage duty)

Then there was an 1872 issued type of hat (black) "It was based on a surgeon's recommendation and could be worn folded up (it had little hooks and eyes) or folded down "in the rain or excessive solar heat."

"The Model 1876 Fatigue Hat was designed to fix the problems with the preceding Model 1872 hat. It had a smaller brim, was not of a folding style, and had tiny little ventilators (Brachcer's patent) with propellers in them. This hat was fairly popular with the troops and stood up well to the rigors of campaign. It was only available in black, which was still a drawback for wear in hot western summers. It was made of a wool felt and was worn well into the 1880s"

Then there was the 1883 issued hat. "Essentially, it is the Model 1876 hat in a drab color (kind of a light brown or dark tan). This hat was designed for fatigue use, and was not normally worn with any trimming. It was made of a good quality fur felt blend and remained in service with the Army (several new model variations) until after 1900. This hat is the one shown in Frederick Remington's paintings. It is also the precursor for the current National Park Service Hat. The original park rangers in Yellowstone National Park (established 1872) were cavalry soldiers who wore standard uniforms. The National Park Service hat was modeled off the army pattern. This hat can be blocked into many different shapes, including the "Montana Peak" and pork pie styles."

For more infos and pics see http://www.bar-w.com/campaign-hats.html

If you want more infos about Uniforms and so on, just ask, i do Civil War / Indian Wars (1850´s-1876) Living History by myself. Just completing my own Cav. Uniform for the Indian Wars time from 1865-76 ...

Just wrote something about the US Uniforms  in the "suggestion board" today, guess it fits here too....

"
Just some thoughts about the US Uniforms. (dont really know if its importable)

For Enlist Soldiers (Cav/Inf) the Sack Coat as "Uniformjacket", low armour etc. http://www.fcsutler.com/pussackcoatrt.gif
For Nco´s/elite Troops - Cav. pointed Shelljacket or the Frock Coat for inf. (as it is in game) with chevrons. mid armour . http://www.factasy.com/civil_war/files/u1/k4.jpg http://howardlanham.tripod.com/link142.jpg
Officers - Frock coat´s with shoulder boards. highest armour http://www.museumoffloridahistory.com/mfh/exhibits/civilwar/images/unioncoat.jpg

With high armour i mean maximum 16 or so. I dont really like these body armour thoughts, cause "nobody" really had it in the real west, so too high armour points should be avoided. Guess at the moment its ok as it is. OR some kind of "Steel" plate, but this should be REAL heavy, but like i said, not for the normal people out there.. If its possible to implement these uniforms, i guess it would look real nice! Dont really know if its possible so, just my thoughts (doin myself living history, civil war,indian wars).  "

 

[Captain Pyjama Shark]

I thought Hardee hats were almost never used, except by the Blackhats?

 

[TrentSteel]

Hardee Hats were part of the early army regulations(civil war periode and before), Kepis and Bummer Kepis were part of the "Forage" Uniform or "Field dress".
There were many types of Uniform Styles during the Civil War (just take a look at "American Civil War Volume 1 Infantry by historie & collections" to get a little impression) Way too mutch variants to talk about. But this changed during and short after the civil war.

Just befor and till the Civil War the Hardee hat was worn by regulation of ´58(and i guess earlyer), since ´58 the bummer Kepi was accepted to (just talking about the Cav. but nearly the same for the inf. and ari. ).

So for 1866 different Kepi types, Hardees (and its variants) and slouch hats would be the best choice for the game.

Theres quiet a difference between full dress regulations and "field/forage dress"... But that would be way too mutch to talk about

Add:
"The Hardee hat, also known as the Model 1858 Dress Hat and sometimes nicknamed the "Jeff Davis", was the regulation dress hat for enlisted men in the Union Army during the American Civil War. The Hardee hat was also worn by Confederate soldiers. However, most soldiers found the black felt hat to be too hot and heavy and shunned its use, preferring a kepi or slouch hat. In the Union Army, the most prominent wearers of the Hardee hat during the war were the soldiers of the "Iron Brigade", also known as the Black-Hats."

-But they were not the only regiment wearing it, like it is said, the hardee was "regulation", but like we all know, out in the field, regulations were not always followed strictly, also the Forage Kepi was "ok" since the ´58 regulation.

Guess we think about the Iron Brigade cause it is a "famous" unit, today mostly identyfied with the Hardee hat. But the Iron Brigade wasnt just a small unit, it consists of 2nd, 6th, and 7th Wisconsin Volunteer Infantry Regiments, along with the 19th Indiana, and was later joined by the 24th Michigan, so it wasnt just a "small group" of Hardee wearing guys out there. Like it is said, it was "regulation" in the army for that time, but like it is said, regulations, what regluations!? 

PS: I think it was also something to "glorify" / identify with, cause the unit took heavy losses and took a stand and so on. (as far as i know, the most % losses of men for any brigade in the civil war?)

 

[Skandinav]

Thank you for the good information.

I am currently reading up on US Cavalry equipment, and while going this much into detail on the subject is new to me I find it very interesting ( but I have a gap in my sources between 1865 and 1891, hence the following questions ).
Do you know if the ( already uncommon during the war ) red sashes were still in use after the war ( Civil War ) ? And what about ( long ) gloves ( not an issue item either, I know ), were these used in the Wild West and to a degree that would justify their inclusion in the 1866 mod ? I wonder about knee-length boots aswell, as I know these were often purchased and even sometimes issued during the war ? And wouldn't all cavalry boots have had issue spurs on them, why are there so few photographs of troopers with these - simply because they were only used when actually in the saddle or how so ?

Regards,

 

[TrentSteel]

Hey there!
About Equipment and Uniform i can recommend some good books for deeper infos, published by Osprey (have them by myself additionally to some civil war era books, if you are intrested in further details/infos just mail me).

Men at Arms - US Cavalry on the plains 1850-90
Men at Arms - The American Indian Wars 1860-90
Historical Warriors - US Cavalry 1865-90
Warriors - US Cavalryman 1865-90
Little Big Horn 1876 Custers Last stand
Forts of the American Frontier 1820-91 The Southern Plains and South West
Elite - US Army Frontier Scouts 1840-1921

Ok back to topic...
Sashes. I think, those were worn short after the Civil War too. But here you have to look for what kind of "suit", i cant imagine that Officers wore them in the field. But still they were regulation till late 60s and early 70s. For example i have one picture of Officers at Fort Wallace in June 1867, none of them seems to wear a Sash. I think they were most of the time used for Full Dress or "special" duty. Not for the field work... Sashes were regulation untill 1872.

In 1872 and early 70s the regulation for the Uniform changed and also some different and new Uniform Parts were introduced (but also civil war style Jackets - Sack Coat, were still worn in the field by Troopers! They changed in style and trimmings, there were some different Jacket types)
Here for example an Arty. Sgt. Full Dress of 1872 Regulations http://www.militarymemorialmuseum.org/_photos/images/1881-Artillery-Sargent-Full.jpg
Also some Cav. Troops in Full Dress 1880s http://www.history.army.mil/images/artphoto/pripos/amsoldier/2/1880.jpg

As far as i know, no Sashes after 1872, befor they were regulation but uncommon out in the field.


Boots.
There were a lot of Footwear out with the Troops, many different Boot types just to name some, M1840 Dragoon Ankle Boot, M1859 Jefferson boot, M1812 Boot, M1861/62/72, and also lots of self purchased Boots! Dont forget the Brogans. There was also a varity of Indian style Boots/shoes, especial late 70s and 80s
About the spurs, i think they were also regulation, but when i look at Cav. Pic´s, there are many Troopers without them, guess its also some kind of "do i need them?/usefull?" thought.(??) I dont really have an historic correct answer for that in the books at the moment.

As far as i know Gloves were also an common item. There were those typical "Cav." Style gloves which were also common for work duty/working gloves, and there were also white cotton gloves. (But about the gloves i cant give you a 100% correct info at the moment, i thought they were issued, cause many units from the inf. for example had group pics with white cotton gloves!)

For more infos just Mail or IM.

Regards,
TrentSteel

 

[Skandinav]

Many thanks ! I was afraid I might have been too impolite in posting so many questions, I am grateful that you took the time to answer them.
And yes, spurs were regulation as far as I know, but I didn't know sashes were so aswell, interesting.

Good list of Osprey books, I will be sure to get them, my own Osprey collection on the subject of US Cavalry were rather limited, and as you can see, mostly centered on the Civil War :

Osprey_-_Warrior_013_-_Union_Cavalryman_1861-1865,
Osprey_-_Warrior_054_-_Confederate_Cavalryman_1861-65,
Osprey_-_Warrior_089_-_US_Cavalryman_1891-1920,
Osprey - Men at Arms 430 - The Confederate Army 1861-65 Louisiana & Texas
Osprey - Elite 140 - The American Civil War in the Indian Territory [Osprey Elite 140]

Regards,

 

[TrentSteel]

No problem mate.
Ive started with civil war books by osprey too, some infantry, one about sharpshooters and about the soutch carolina troops (was reenacting a south carolina sharpshooter / palmetto sharpshooters, last year went to civilian and now to indian wars living history, both around 1870s).

If you have more questions, guess the uniform threat is the right place 

 

[HunterAlpha1]

Can we have at least some of the U.S. troopers wear the kepi without the veil?  Right now they all do.

this "veil" you speak of (not sure what to call it either) actually had a very practical purpose:  it kept the hot sun off the neck.  i can't imagine any soldier being happy without one, especially in the desert!

 

[TrentSteel]

Good day guys!

Just one little question, what was the historical origin for the "veil" Model for the Kepi in the mod?

I only know the "Havelock", worn over the Kepi, not under. Dont blame me if im wrong, but, i do only know the "Havelock" sunblock, they also used neckerchiefs for sun protection, more widely common then havelocks, but never seen any other type.

By the way, if possible, the Cav. Troopers should also wear more "slouch hats", they were widely more common out in the field. At this time (civil war and bit later 1866) the brim were most of the time worn "down" not like the modern cowboy hat style "up", this came a bit later in fashion. Just some periode options for hats. http://fcsutler.com/fchats.asp

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http://riverhillsdepot.com/shopcart/catalog/images/havelock.jpg