Upgrading Troops to Heros

[effemb]

The options we are considering are:

- Turn the troop into a hero, that cant die, keeps the troops stats and cant be customized (equipment- and statwise).

- Turn the troop into a hero, that cant die, keeps the troops stats and can be customized equipmentwise but not statwise

- Turn the troop into a companion with its current stats, that will continue to level while both equipment and stats can be customized from that point on

- Turn the troop into a hero, that cant die, chosen from a range of templates (archer, cavalry, infantry), which are designed accordingly and can be customized (stat and equipment).

my 2cents on this is simply that turning normal troops into heroes will eventually bloat the games quite a bit.  with 12 heroes already present its actually too much as is.
however, option A: troop cant die, stats/equip stay same - might be best option, if its possible to make the unit a normal "stacking" one.  ie: if you get 2, they stack together...so they are simply a final upgrade for that troop tree branch.  rather than making them individual units with unique names etc aka: a regular hero.

option B: this could similarly work, if you wanted to be able to give the troop better armor/weapons (and then it would copy to all other copies of that troop automatically - ie: it would replace the equip "template" for that troop type).  ive seen a few other mods that do this.  this is a same type solution as option A with the customizing added.

option C: please no more companions.  while this option at first glance seems the most appropriate/realistic, simply for sake of having way too many companions eventually making a long game not all that fun (in 500+ days i could easily see having 20 companions, which would fill up the entire army overlay mouse-over on the mapscreen)...

option D: if you are able with this option to chose a completely different role for your 'hero' troop than he was his entire career, then it is game-immersion-breaking imo.  if you are instead talking about having a few prebuilt templates of each 'class' (archer, infantry, cavalry)...ie: archer could have 4 templates: (xbow -- bow -- throwing spear -- throwing axe) that you could chose from when your archer T7 unit leveled up to 'hero'...of course, even then, turning a bow t7 into a throwing spear t7 unit would be pretty silly.  likewise if you had a t7 sword+shield infantry, and then chose to turn it into a 2h-blunt infantry 'hero'...it would seem rather silly and definitely break immersion.

so conclusion: option A seems best, equally viable option B...option C no thanks, option D by far worst choice.
also, please allow another checkbox or menu upon creating new game to set whether these extra heros will be at all present in the game, as i know many people would rather play without them entirely.  if its built in as option A, i will probably use it.  as then it is simply turning a t7 who survives a long (long) time as t7 into an unkillable-t7, which is fair reward imo.
how exactly will you handle these 'hero' units when they are defeated and captured, though, i wonder?  as normal heroes?  thats an interesting point nobody has asked yet...if you capture AI "t8 hero" units, will the enemy ask for them back with ransom?  can you just sell them to slave trader?  what if you get captured?  what happens to your "t8 heroes"???

 

[Caba`drin]

Note that even for Option C, there could be a cap of the number of companions that can be created this way each game...or have them create a heavier morale hit in the party, functioning as a soft cap to the number of companions that one can have (unless of course one turned off companion interaction...but that's a choice, too).

 

[Duh]

The player himself can easily cap it by disabling the upgrading once he has reached a number that he deems sufficient. Be that 0 or be that 10 (good luck on the grinding).

 

[Hyde911]

Have I understood it right?
There won't be tier7 troops any more, but heroes instead??

However it will be I think number immortal troops should be limited, despite fact they would be hard to get. For example: leadership x2.

 

[Duh]

There will be tier7 units and they will be the best units ingame.

There will be a few t6 units that can be upgraded to hero once they reach a huge amount of experience. These units will be worse than t7 (t6 like). but they wont die. The limit will be open to the player - as there will be an option to disable the upgrading whenever he or she sees fit.

 

[Hyde911]

There will be a few t6 units that can be upgraded to hero once they reach a huge amount of experience.

All of t6 units will be upgradable into both heroes and t7 or there will be division: some of t6 only into t7 and some only into heroes??

 

[rbcarter101]

隐藏: Offtopic SPAM

I know this is off topic, but holy ****, Duh is German! 

 

[Duh]

There will be a few t6 units that can be upgraded to hero once they reach a huge amount of experience.

All of t6 units will be upgradable into both heroes and t7 or there will be division: some of t6 only into t7 and some only into heroes??

Division. Most t6s will be upgradable to t7, but not to hero. Some t6 will be upgradeable to hero and not t7. This will not be done in the party screen. The hero upgrade is called only, if you meet the aforementioned conditions and triggers a menu, where you get to choose whether to upgrade or not.

 

[effemb]

Note that even for Option C, there could be a cap of the number of companions that can be created this way each game...or have them create a heavier morale hit in the party, functioning as a soft cap to the number of companions that one can have (unless of course one turned off companion interaction...but that's a choice, too).

purposefully creating more complexity to deal with a non-existant problem: a flawed feature from the get-go.

There will be tier7 units and they will be the best units ingame.

There will be a few t6 units that can be upgraded to hero once they reach a huge amount of experience. These units will be worse than t7 (t6 like). but they wont die. The limit will be open to the player - as there will be an option to disable the upgrading whenever he or she sees fit.

purposefully creating more complexity to deal with a non-existant problem: a flawed feature from the get-go.

They are tier 6 units and remain tier 6 units (unless we d make them levelling companions). They just dont die. Tier7 will still kick their ass.

...ditto...
not trying to be rude or anything but simple case-in-point here is that every response i hear from you dev guys is a somewhat complex and obtuse solution to a problem that never existed in the first place.  youre creating a problem out of thin air, then trying to solve it, and in hoping not to break the game via your invented problem you have to come up with some really crazy and developmentally difficult options upon options upon configurations upon "if-else" statements just to fit it in there (and it still doesnt make much sense...a hero being weaker than a T7, yet it requires x-times more exp to get to hero status, then it actually "upgrades backwards"??)

i agree though with kinsume on one point.  this game doesnt need to be made any easier, with unkillable units, or more companions.  indeed if you want to implement more companions - the feat has already been done - just drop custom commander/more companions (whatever the mod is called) in there and youre done (making it work together with floris of course will take its own amount of effort).
the way the game is right now though its already in such huge favor to the player, with 12 companions, that adding more is just tipping an already semi-game-breaking system into a bit of overload.
im sure people will use this feature for a few games but in the long run, i really dont think anybody will use it because its game imbalancing, game immersion breaking, and game time spent on these extra little guys is going to much more effort than reward so will ultimately just be a huge anti-climax.  (theres no way id grind a troop for 2,000,000 exp just to have it become WEAKER than a t7, killable or not - by the time i have alot of T6 and T7 i already have a doctor with maxed out 10+ doctor skills, which makes those t6/t7 very very rarely die anyway).

 

[Duh]

Im intrigued by your ability to judge my code without having seen it.

If you are truly interested in it, then i will upload it tonight, once im back home, but dont be disappointed by its simplicty. There is no problem. There is a requested feature which i implemented. There is an option, which i implemented to keep things optional. This option changes 1 slot, which is checked at 1 point in the code. I can change this with 1 click, same goes for required experience. These things are as far from complex as they get.

Claims of flaws due to an assumed complexity should not be made until you know how the feature actually works.

Companions
You complain about this feature making the game easier (even though you can just turn it off), yet you ask us to implement more companions instead - companions are a lot easier and a lot cheaper to get. If your problem was with making the game too easy, then you would ask us to rewrite all companions to this system. Because they are hard to get - much unlike the tavern recruitment.

Heros are weaker than T7
You complain about these units being too powerful, yet you complain about these units being not powerful enough. You are aware that most companions are weaker than a T7 unit? In fact most players are weaker than a T7 unit? As i have said earlier in this thread - i do want to keep certain pros and cons to the units. Its not about offering the ultimate unit, its about offering one possible unit that has advantages and disadvantages compared to others.

These heros are also stronger than their pre upgrade T6 version. (Not dying being one advantage over them, depending on where the initial discussion leads us, there might be other pros, so an upgrade is still worth using.)

People dont like a feature
Wrong. You dont like this feature. Thats why i added the optional bit. People have requested both - more companions and upgrading troops to heros. We are here to discuss what exactly would be the most liked version of this particular feature.

 

[effemb]

Im intrigued by your ability to judge my code without having seen it.

If you are truly interested in it, then i will upload it tonight, once im back home, but dont be disappointed by its simplicty.

lol, ok...

There is no problem. There is a requested feature which i implemented. There is an option, which i implemented to keep things optional. This option changes 1 slot, which is checked at 1 point in the code. I can change this with 1 click, same goes for required experience. These things are as far from complex as they get.

well i meant more along the lines of complexity in how troops diverge paths, youre creating more troop types (more templates thus), more code checks (though thats a pretty simple issue since its a one-time thing)...

Claims of flaws due to an assumed complexity should not be made until you know how the feature actually works.

agreed, and i suppose i was making assumptions, ill gladly check the code out.

Companions
You complain about this feature making the game easier (even though you can just turn it off), yet you ask us to implement more companions instead - companions are a lot easier and a lot cheaper to get. If your problem was with making the game too easy, then you would ask us to rewrite all companions to this system. Because they are hard to get - much unlike the tavern recruitment.

well, it DOES make the game easier.  it makes unkillable troops/hero troops whereas right now there are no such troops.  obviously an upgrade = obviously easier.  imo it doesnt need being any easier in the late game, it already is...early game is where there is still a fun challenge - late game there really is none and the fun comes from managing kingdoms, relations, getting kingdoms to war with eachother...all that "sandbox" stuff.  challenge though? its basically gone by the time youve built up enough financing and built a strong army.  so any 'feature' implemented that makes things 'easier' imo needs to be double-thought, triple-thought perhaps...
thats just my 2c.
and yes we can toggle it off.
my intention was more along the lines of - why spend so much developer time on a feature that is more suited to NOT be used (probably wont be by most people in the long run).  i havent heard anything yet from the people who asked for this feature though, so i dont know why/what they are thinking in requesting it.  but hey its great that you are implementing all features that everyone wants (or trying to appease everyone at least)...thats not an easy task and i dont begrudge you that!

Heros are weaker than T7
You complain about these units being too powerful, yet you complain about these units being not powerful enough. You are aware that most companions are weaker than a T7 unit? In fact most players are weaker than a T7 unit? As i have said earlier in this thread - i do want to keep certain pros and cons to the units. Its not about offering the ultimate unit, its about offering one possible unit that has advantages and disadvantages compared to others.

These heros are also stronger than their pre upgrade T6 version. (Not dying being one advantage over them, depending on where the initial discussion leads us, there might be other pros, so an upgrade is still worth using.)

while it might sound like me "complaining" - im not.  too bad if you take it that way because i think i give some rather good constructive criticism generally speaking.
the simple fact of having a t7 unit "upgrade" to a WEAKER unit is simply anti-climactic, and irrational.  thats all.  its a very simple concept.  not a complaint.  it just makes no sense.  yes i understand its "upgrade" means it is unkillable, but as far as being actually "upgraded" it is not - its a downgrade.  a downgrade that requires a HUUUUGE amount of grinding to achieve.  anti-clamactic, as i said.  makes no sense.  its better to just make it an actual upgrade imo: make it unkillable, and either keep it as a T7 unit (same stats/equip, or optionally equip customizable like in option B).  as youve said.  it will take an enourmous amount of exp to get a single one of these units.  it wont exactly be game breaking to have a few of them.  is it neccessary? does it add something to the gameplay? imo no it doesnt, but for those who think it does, i really doubt anyone would want to babysit a unit for such an outrageously long time, just to end up with an INFERIOR unit in the end.
what im saying is, the things youve described basically, one after the other, make me look at this feature and dislike it more and more everytime i hear how it is going to be implemented.
at first it sounded ok, a little bit cool, i thought i might actually use it, try it out at least - but the more i hear how its being handled the more i think id rather NOT have it in my game at all, and wouldnt even bother trying it.

just giving you that feedback.
as youve said, youre making a mod and trying to implement features that players want...

People dont like a feature
Wrong. You dont like this feature. Thats why i added the optional bit. People have requested both - more companions and upgrading troops to heros. We are here to discuss what exactly would be the most liked version of this particular feature.

ok well i havent yet heard anybody who is apparently one of these people who requested the feature.
everyone to his own, we all know that.
no worries, and im glad to see that you guys implement features individually upon request.  thats really awesome, and i dont want to detract from that at all.  theres some here that want it and im sure itll be used but overall i think theres been more criticism against the feature in this thread than in support of it.  im sortof on the fence.  i was for it at first but as i said the more i hear about how its going to be put in, the less i like it.
im still undecided because its not final yet (i think?) how it will be implemented, so actually i dont even fit into that group of people who outright "dont like it".
just giving my feedback.
ie: while i probably wouldnt use more companions, i could see some who would want to, and just implementing the more companions mod would seem more logical to me than this.  i wouldnt use it.  but it makes more sense to me.  and im not at all against implementation of it.  more features = better, as long as they are good features that dont ruin gameplay somehow.
again, thats my only concern.
eager to see what the final decision is...

 

[Duh]

while it might sound like me "complaining" - im not.  too bad if you take it that way because i think i give some rather good constructive criticism generally speaking.

I didnt mean to use complain in its negative sense - i suppose criticize works just as much. I appreciate your input and it was one of the main reasons why we invited you to the beta (among being an active contributor), because you speak your mind, because you say what you think and because it makes quite a bit of sense.

I will address the actual post, once i get back home, need to hit the road now. Just wanted to clarify that i did not mean to complain () about your actual feedback, if at all the parts on complexity bothered me.

Cheers,
Duh

 

[monnikje]

Originally this was a Custom Commander feature which I had disabled in earlier versions of FEMP. There were some request to enable it again, but that has been around the beginning of the devellopment of 2.5 (or even earlier), around half a year ago. So one of the first things I did half a year ago, was enabling it.

How it originally worked in Custom Commander:
The top tier units in native (around tier 5) have a chance to upgrade to a hero. This hero is like a normal companion, is level 3 and thus loses almost all his stats/abilities he had as a top tier unit. But for the rest he becomes similar to a companion like Firentis or Artimenner.

I already found the tier 7 units the very elite uits, so I decided half a year ago that this upgrade feature should be something for the tier 6 units that have no possibility to become a tier 7 units. This feature then lay dormant for half a year in the code, until Duh picked it up recently, for which I'm glad, since I don't have the time for it (I'm working now on correcting the trees all the scenes, altough due to personal circumstances I hadn't had the chance to do anything on the mod the past week).

This is just for a comparison for your information. I think that any of the options is an improvement over how it was originally coded.

 

[gesia]

I'm actually one of those "people" who would like the feature. I don't see why anyone would oppose to it, considering it can be disabled. If you don't want additional features play vanilla!

The system however strikes me as suboptimal. If you ask me, the main point in companions is that they grow together with the player and can be customized to contribute specific skills (be it fighting or party skills) to the party. With the proposed system however you wouldn't be able to recruit these heroes until very late in the game. By that time you should have a complete set of companions and not require anybody else. And in some of the proposals, you wouldn't even be able to customize them. So they wouldn't really be companions.

I'm not having any really striking ideas here, but maybe the "promotion" from troop to companion shouldn't be based on experience, but rather something else. Something that allows hero recruitment in early/mid-game (instead of very late) and still limits the number of companions you can get this way. Maybe some kind of quest? Or a specific situation, e.g. you're down and the troop is the last survivor of your side and saves you? I dunno....

 

[rbcarter101]

隐藏: Offtopic SPAM

I know this is off topic, but holy ****, Duh is German! 

Sorry, I had a weak moment. 

 

[Duh]

Righto - finally back home .

The above comment still counts, i apologize, if i came across rudely, just had to type fast and well disagreeing without taking time to formulate oneself can lead to oddities in the communication . Anyways here goes the code. Anything that i did not mark as Floris is original code by Lazeras and has been idling in our source for half a year now.

#LAZERAS MODIFIED  {Top Tier Troops Recruit}
additional_heroes_begin = "trp_swadian_n_hero1"
additional_heroes_end = "trp_town_1_seneschal"
#LAZERAS MODIFIED  {Top Tier Troops Recruit}

#LAZERAS MODIFIED  {Top Tier Troops Recruit}
  (24,
   [
	#	Floris Entirely Rewritten // Based on troop experience instead of time passed, also checks whether the troop is actually in the player party
	(party_get_num_companion_stacks, ":range", "p_main_party"),
	(try_for_range, ":stack_no", 0, ":range"),
		(party_slot_eq, "p_main_party", slot_hero_upgrade, 1), #check to keep thinks optional
		(party_stack_get_troop_id, ":troop_no", "p_main_party", ":stack_no"),
		(is_between, ":troop_no", "trp_swadian_n_hero1", "trp_town_1_seneschal"),
		(troop_get_xp, ":experience", ":troop_no"),
		(ge, ":experience", 80000), #low for testing convenience
		(jump_to_menu, "mnu_upgrade_to_hero"),
	(try_end),
    ]), 

##LAZERAS MODIFIED  {Top Tier Troops Recruit}												##	FLORIS: Yet to be rewritten depending on the final decision regarding this feature
############################################################################
  ("upgrade_to_hero",0,
   "You notice that one or more of your warriors exceeds your expectations in battle. ^You walk towards the lines of your troops, and ...",
   "none",
   [
       (assign, reg11, 0), # sub menu 1
       (assign, reg12, 0), # sub menu 2
       (assign, reg13, 0), # sub menu 3
       (assign, reg14, 0), # sub menu 4
       (assign, "$g_upgrade_talk", 0),
     ],
    [
      ("hero_1",
      [         
		 (assign, reg10, additional_heroes_begin),
         (assign, ":limit", reg10),
         (assign, ":found", 0),
         (try_for_range, ":hero_id", ":limit", additional_heroes_end),
            (eq, ":found", 0),
            (troop_get_slot, ":hero_ocu", ":hero_id", slot_troop_occupation),
            (gt, ":hero_ocu", 0),
            (neq, ":hero_ocu",slto_kingdom_hero),
            (neq, ":hero_ocu",slto_player_companion),
            (main_party_has_troop, ":hero_ocu"),
            (assign, ":found", 1),
            (assign, reg11, ":hero_id"),
         (try_end),
         (eq, ":found", 1),
         (str_store_troop_name,s1,reg11),
      ],"stop to talk to {s1}",
       [
           (assign, ":hero_id", reg11),
           (troop_get_slot, ":troop_id", ":hero_id", slot_troop_occupation),
           (assign, reg20, ":troop_id"),
           (assign, reg21, ":hero_id"),
           (assign, "$g_upgrade_talk", 1),
           (start_map_conversation, ":troop_id"),
           (change_screen_return),
        ]
       ),
      ("hero_2",
      [         
         (ge, reg11, reg10),
         (store_add, ":limit", reg11, 1),
         (assign, ":found", 0),         
         (try_for_range, ":hero_id", ":limit", additional_heroes_end),
            (eq, ":found", 0),
            (troop_get_slot, ":hero_ocu", ":hero_id", slot_troop_occupation),
            (gt, ":hero_ocu", 0),
            (neq, ":hero_ocu",slto_kingdom_hero),
            (neq, ":hero_ocu",slto_player_companion),
            (main_party_has_troop, ":hero_ocu"),
            (assign, ":found", 1),
            (assign, reg12, ":hero_id"),
         (try_end),
         (eq, ":found", 1),
         (str_store_troop_name,s1,reg12),
      ],"stop to talk to {s1}",
       [
           (assign, ":hero_id", reg12),
           (troop_get_slot, ":troop_id", ":hero_id", slot_troop_occupation),
           (assign, reg20, ":troop_id"),
           (assign, reg21, ":hero_id"),
           (assign, "$g_upgrade_talk", 1),
           (start_map_conversation, ":troop_id"),
           (change_screen_return),
        ]
       ),
      ("hero_3",
      [         
         (gt, reg12, reg11),
         (store_add, ":limit", reg12, 1),
         (assign, ":found", 0),         
         (try_for_range, ":hero_id", ":limit", additional_heroes_end),
            (eq, ":found", 0),
            (troop_get_slot, ":hero_ocu", ":hero_id", slot_troop_occupation),
            (gt, ":hero_ocu", 0),
            (neq, ":hero_ocu",slto_kingdom_hero),
            (neq, ":hero_ocu",slto_player_companion),
            (main_party_has_troop, ":hero_ocu"),
            (assign, ":found", 1),
            (assign, reg13, ":hero_id"),
         (try_end),
         (eq, ":found", 1),
         (str_store_troop_name,s1,reg13),
      ],"stop to talk to {s1}",
       [
           (assign, ":hero_id", reg13),
           (troop_get_slot, ":troop_id", ":hero_id", slot_troop_occupation),
           (assign, reg20, ":troop_id"),
           (assign, reg21, ":hero_id"),
           (assign, "$g_upgrade_talk", 1),
           (start_map_conversation, ":troop_id"),
           (change_screen_return),
        ]
       ),
      ("hero_4",
      [         
         (gt, reg13, reg12),
         (store_add, ":limit", reg13, 1),
         (assign, ":found", 0),         
         (try_for_range, ":hero_id", ":limit", additional_heroes_end),
            (eq, ":found", 0),         
            (troop_get_slot, ":hero_ocu", ":hero_id", slot_troop_occupation),
            (gt, ":hero_ocu", 0),
            (neq, ":hero_ocu",slto_kingdom_hero),
            (neq, ":hero_ocu",slto_player_companion),
            (main_party_has_troop, ":hero_ocu"),
            (assign, ":found", 1),
            (assign, reg14, ":hero_id"),
         (try_end),
         (eq, ":found", 1),
         (str_store_troop_name,s1,reg14),
      ],"stop to talk to {s1}",
       [
           (assign, ":hero_id", reg14),
           (troop_get_slot, ":troop_id", ":hero_id", slot_troop_occupation),
           (assign, reg20, ":troop_id"),
           (assign, reg21, ":hero_id"),
           (assign, "$g_upgrade_talk", 1),
           (start_map_conversation, ":troop_id"),
           (change_screen_return),
        ]
       ),
      ("prev",
      [
          (gt, reg10, additional_heroes_begin),
          (assign, ":limit", reg10),
          (assign, ":found", 0),         
          (try_for_range_backwards, ":hero_id", ":limit", additional_heroes_begin),
             (lt, ":found", 4),         
             (troop_get_slot, ":hero_ocu", ":hero_id", slot_troop_occupation),
             (gt, ":hero_ocu", 0),
             (neq, ":hero_ocu",slto_kingdom_hero),
             (neq, ":hero_ocu",slto_player_companion),
             (main_party_has_troop, ":hero_ocu"),
             (assign, reg15, ":hero_id"),
             (val_add, ":found", 1),
         (try_end),
         (gt, ":found", 0),         
      ],"go to the previous lines",
       [
          (assign, reg10, reg15),
          (jump_to_menu, "mnu_upgrade_to_hero"),
        ]
       ),
      ("next",
      [
          (gt, reg14, reg13),
          (store_add, ":limit", reg14, 1),
          (assign, ":found", 0),         
          (try_for_range, ":hero_id", ":limit", additional_heroes_end),
             (eq, ":found", 0),         
             (troop_get_slot, ":hero_ocu", ":hero_id", slot_troop_occupation),
             (gt, ":hero_ocu", 0),
             (neq, ":hero_ocu",slto_kingdom_hero),
             (neq, ":hero_ocu",slto_player_companion),
             (main_party_has_troop, ":hero_ocu"),
             (assign, ":found", 1),
         (try_end),
         (eq, ":found", 1),         
      ],"go to the next lines",
       [
           (store_add, reg10, reg14, 1),
           (jump_to_menu, "mnu_upgrade_to_hero"),
        ]
       ),
      ("close",
      [
       ],"close",
       [
          (assign, "$g_upgrade_talk", 1),
          (change_screen_map),
       ]
      ),
    ]
  ),
##LAZERAS MODIFIED  {Top Tier Troops Recruit}

#LAZERAS MODIFIED  {Top Tier Troops Recruit}             # FLORIS: Yet to be rewritten depending on the final decisions regarding this feature.
###########################################################################
   [anyone,
      "event_triggered",
      [
         (store_conversation_troop,"$g_talk_troop"),
         #(is_between,"$g_talk_troop", additional_heroes_begin, additional_heroes_end),
                        (eq, "$g_talk_troop", reg20),
         (eq, "$g_upgrade_talk", 1),
                        (troop_get_type, reg65, "trp_player"),
                        (str_store_string,s65,"@{reg65?my Lady:my Lord}"),
                        (str_store_troop_name,s21,reg21),
      ],
      "Yes, {s65}?",
      "upgrade_talk",
      []
   ],
       [anyone|plyr,
      "upgrade_talk",
      [],
      "I have seen you fight well in battles, soldier.",
      "upgrade_talk_1",
      []
   ],
        [anyone,
      "upgrade_talk_1",
      [
      ],
      "I only do my duty to {s65}, sire.",
      "upgrade_talk_2",
      []
         ],
         [anyone|plyr,
      "upgrade_talk_2",
      [],
      "And well, too. The only time I've heard someone with such skills in battle, it has been in sagas. You are a hero!",
      "upgrade_talk_3a",
      []
         ],         
         [anyone|plyr,
      "upgrade_talk_2",
      [],
      "I just wanted you to know that I take notice in such skills in battle. Now fall back in line!",
      "upgrade_talk_3b",
      []
         ],
   [anyone,
      "upgrade_talk_3a",
      [
      ],
      "You honour me with your words. I will do my utter best to honour them.",
      "upgrade_talk_4a",
      []
         ],
         [anyone|plyr,
      "upgrade_talk_4a",
      [],
      "From now on you shall be remembered as a {s21}",
      "upgrade_talk_5",
      []
         ],
   [anyone,
      "upgrade_talk_5",
      [
                    (call_script,"script_upgrade_troop_to_hero", reg20, reg21),
      ],
      "I will defend my new title to my death, and I will not let you down. I promise you this; The blood on my steel will never dry!",
      "close_window",
      []
         ],         
   [anyone,
      "upgrade_talk_3b",
      [
      ],
      "Yes, {s65}",
      "close_window",
      []
   ],
#LAZERAS MODIFIED  {Top Tier Troops Recruit}

      #LAZERAS MODIFIED  {Top Tier Troops Recruit}
#	   #Floris: I used the tier 6 troops that don't upgrade to tier 7.
		  		## Floris: Multiple troop trees
		  		# Native
      (troop_set_slot,"trp_swadian_n_hero1", slot_troop_occupation, "trp_swadian_n_jock"),
      (troop_set_slot,"trp_swadian_n_hero2", slot_troop_occupation, "trp_swadian_n_selfbow_archer"),
      (troop_set_slot,"trp_vaegir_n_hero1", slot_troop_occupation, "trp_vaegir_n_pansirniy_kazan"),
      (troop_set_slot,"trp_vaegir_n_hero2", slot_troop_occupation, "trp_vaegir_n_druzhinnik_veteran"),
      (troop_set_slot,"trp_khergit_n_hero1", slot_troop_occupation, "trp_khergit_n_borjigin"),
      (troop_set_slot,"trp_nord_n_hero1", slot_troop_occupation, "trp_nord_n_husbondi"),
      (troop_set_slot,"trp_rhodok_n_hero1", slot_troop_occupation, "trp_rhodok_n_veterano"),
      (troop_set_slot,"trp_rhodok_n_hero2", slot_troop_occupation, "trp_rhodok_n_balestriere_veterano"),
      (troop_set_slot,"trp_sarranid_n_hero1", slot_troop_occupation, "trp_sarranid_n_kapikula"),
      (troop_set_slot,"trp_sarranid_n_hero2", slot_troop_occupation, "trp_sarranid_n_uluteci"),
		  		# Reworked
      (troop_set_slot,"trp_swadian_r_hero1", slot_troop_occupation, "trp_swadian_r_jock"),
      (troop_set_slot,"trp_swadian_r_hero2", slot_troop_occupation, "trp_swadian_r_selfbow_archer"),
      (troop_set_slot,"trp_vaegir_r_hero1", slot_troop_occupation, "trp_vaegir_r_ataman"),
      (troop_set_slot,"trp_vaegir_r_hero2", slot_troop_occupation, "trp_vaegir_r_druzhinnik_veteran"),
      (troop_set_slot,"trp_khergit_r_hero1", slot_troop_occupation, "trp_khergit_r_aqala_teriguci"),
      (troop_set_slot,"trp_khergit_r_hero2", slot_troop_occupation, "trp_khergit_r_borjigin"),
      (troop_set_slot,"trp_nord_r_hero1", slot_troop_occupation, "trp_nord_r_heahgerefa"),
      (troop_set_slot,"trp_nord_r_hero2", slot_troop_occupation, "trp_nord_r_kappi"),
      (troop_set_slot,"trp_rhodok_r_hero1", slot_troop_occupation, "trp_rhodok_r_balestriere_veterano"),
      (troop_set_slot,"trp_rhodok_r_hero2", slot_troop_occupation, "trp_rhodok_r_picchiere_veterano"),
      (troop_set_slot,"trp_sarranid_r_hero1", slot_troop_occupation, "trp_sarranid_r_kapikula"),
      (troop_set_slot,"trp_sarranid_r_hero2", slot_troop_occupation, "trp_sarranid_r_uluteci"),
		  		# Expanded
      (troop_set_slot,"trp_swadian_e_hero1", slot_troop_occupation, "trp_swadian_e_highlander"),
      (troop_set_slot,"trp_swadian_e_hero2", slot_troop_occupation, "trp_swadian_e_lancer"),
      (troop_set_slot,"trp_vaegir_e_hero1", slot_troop_occupation, "trp_vaegir_e_legkoy_vityas"),
      (troop_set_slot,"trp_vaegir_e_hero2", slot_troop_occupation, "trp_vaegir_e_voevoda"),
      (troop_set_slot,"trp_vaegir_e_hero3", slot_troop_occupation, "trp_vaegir_e_elitniy_druzhinnik"),
      (troop_set_slot,"trp_khergit_e_hero1", slot_troop_occupation, "trp_khergit_e_keshig"),
      (troop_set_slot,"trp_khergit_e_hero2", slot_troop_occupation, "trp_khergit_e_kharvaach"),
      (troop_set_slot,"trp_khergit_e_hero3", slot_troop_occupation, "trp_khergit_e_jurtchi"),
      (troop_set_slot,"trp_nord_e_hero1", slot_troop_occupation, "trp_nord_e_ealdorman"),
      (troop_set_slot,"trp_nord_e_hero2", slot_troop_occupation, "trp_nord_e_erfane_himthige"),
      (troop_set_slot,"trp_nord_e_hero3", slot_troop_occupation, "trp_nord_e_hetja"),
      (troop_set_slot,"trp_rhodok_e_hero1", slot_troop_occupation, "trp_rhodok_e_balestriere_pesante"),
      (troop_set_slot,"trp_rhodok_e_hero2", slot_troop_occupation, "trp_rhodok_e_picchiere_fiammingo"),
      (troop_set_slot,"trp_rhodok_e_hero3", slot_troop_occupation, "trp_rhodok_e_guardia_ducale"),
      (troop_set_slot,"trp_sarranid_e_hero1", slot_troop_occupation, "trp_sarranid_e_qilich_arslan"),
      (troop_set_slot,"trp_sarranid_e_hero2", slot_troop_occupation, "trp_sarranid_e_sekban"),
		  		##
      (troop_set_slot,"trp_sarranid_e_hero3", slot_troop_occupation, "trp_sarranid_e_silahtar"),
      #LAZERAS MODIFIED  {Top Tier Troops Recruit}

                            #LAZERAS MODIFIED  {Top Tier Troops Recruit}
                            # ##script_upgrade_troop_to_hero
                            # ##usage   : (call_script,"script_upgrade_troop_to_hero",<troop_ID>,<hero_ID>),
                            # ##Input 1 : <troop_ID> should be one of troop_id of top tier troop
                            # ##Input 2 : <hero_ID> should be one of troop_id of inactive hero on module_troops.py
                            # ##This must be passed.  The code block calling this script should have already checked if there is that troop.
                            # ##Output: None, will adjust p_main_party
                            # ##May call a dialog to communicate this happening
                            ("upgrade_troop_to_hero",
                              [(store_script_param,":troop_id",1),
                                (store_script_param,":hero_id",2),
                                (try_begin),
                                  (main_party_has_troop, ":troop_id"),
                                  (troop_slot_eq, ":hero_id", slot_troop_occupation, ":troop_id"),
                                  (troop_set_slot,":hero_id", slot_troop_occupation, slto_player_companion),
                                  (party_remove_members,"p_main_party",":troop_id",1),      # ##remove the regular troop
                                  (party_add_members,"p_main_party",":hero_id",1),          # ##Add the hero found
                                (try_end),
                            ]),
                            #LAZERAS MODIFIED  {Top Tier Troops Recruit}

The next bit is part of the mod options. This is basically the only thing that had to be added to the previously existing code by lazeras. Its to keep things optional. As the mod options are rather big, i only copied the relevant bits - they wont work pasted like this, but should be understandable.

		#	Floris - Troop to hero
		(create_text_overlay, reg0, "@Enable Troop to hero:", tf_vertical_align_center),
        (position_set_y, pos1, ":headings_y"),
        (overlay_set_position, reg0, pos1),
		(val_sub, ":headings_y", ":cur_y_shift"),

		
		#	Floris - Troop to hero
		(create_check_box_overlay, reg0, "mesh_checkbox_off", "mesh_checkbox_on"),
        (position_set_y, pos1, ":inputs_y"),
        (overlay_set_position, reg0, pos1),
        (overlay_set_val, reg0, "$g_fog"),
		(val_sub, ":inputs_y", ":cur_y_shift"),


		(else_try),
			(val_add, ":overlay", 1),
			(eq, ":object", ":overlay"), #	Troop to hero
			(party_set_slot, "p_main_party", slot_hero_upgrade, ":value"),
		(else_try),

Now to adress the posts that have been made.

my intention was more along the lines of - why spend so much developer time on a feature that is more suited to NOT be used (probably wont be by most people in the long run).  i havent heard anything yet from the people who asked for this feature though, so i dont know why/what they are thinking in requesting it.  but hey its great that you are implementing all features that everyone wants (or trying to appease everyone at least)...thats not an easy task and i dont begrudge you that!

The problem with this is, that we dont know how much this feature will be used, we just know that it has been requested and that there was time spent to implement the aforepasted amount of code - would be a waste to let it sit idle in my opinion. I didnt like the old system, so i decided to rewrite parts of it that bothered me and wanted to give folks the chance to make suggestions on that matter. (You obviously couldnt have known that this was implemented a long time ago, just sat around idly, but its one of the reasons why im even working on this.)

the simple fact of having a t7 unit "upgrade" to a WEAKER unit is simply anti-climactic, and irrational.  thats all.  its a very simple concept.  not a complaint.  it just makes no sense.  yes i understand its "upgrade" means it is unkillable, but as far as being actually "upgraded" it is not - its a downgrade.  a downgrade that requires a HUUUUGE amount of grinding to achieve.  anti-clamactic, as i said.  makes no sense.  its better to just make it an actual upgrade imo: make it unkillable, and either keep it as a T7 unit (same stats/equip, or optionally equip customizable like in option B).  as youve said.  it will take an enourmous amount of exp to get a single one of these units.  it wont exactly be game breaking to have a few of them.  is it neccessary? does it add something to the gameplay? imo no it doesnt, but for those who think it does, i really doubt anyone would want to babysit a unit for such an outrageously long time, just to end up with an INFERIOR unit in the end.

It is not a downgrade - it is an upgrade. This is applied to T6 units, that are not upgrading to T7 units. It is a new upgrade to make these units more attractive. They are inferior to T7 in some aspects and superior to T7 in other aspects. No T7 units were harmed or lost in the construction of this feature .

what im saying is, the things youve described basically, one after the other, make me look at this feature and dislike it more and more everytime i hear how it is going to be implemented.
at first it sounded ok, a little bit cool, i thought i might actually use it, try it out at least - but the more i hear how its being handled the more i think id rather NOT have it in my game at all, and wouldnt even bother trying it.

just giving you that feedback.
as youve said, youre making a mod and trying to implement features that players want...

The actual system is still open to discussion - along the lines that we have laid out. If you were at first interested in it, then you should still be interested in whatever had you interested at first. The outlines were not changed. You dont have to bother trying it - you can either turn it off or you can play and disregard it and maybe you will one day be surprised by a soldier of yours that has shown excellent skills in battle and can be turned into sth special. I think that is the view im having on it - a neat little treat that comes as a surprise to the player. I dont think many folks know all of the features that are included in this pack and things like this keep the game interesting.

Again players have requested it and the biggest part of the work was already done. Its time to put it to use.

ok well i havent yet heard anybody who is apparently one of these people who requested the feature.
everyone to his own, we all know that.
no worries, and im glad to see that you guys implement features individually upon request.  thats really awesome, and i dont want to detract from that at all.  theres some here that want it and im sure itll be used but overall i think theres been more criticism against the feature in this thread than in support of it.  im sortof on the fence.  i was for it at first but as i said the more i hear about how its going to be put in, the less i like it.
im still undecided because its not final yet (i think?) how it will be implemented, so actually i dont even fit into that group of people who outright "dont like it".
just giving my feedback.
ie: while i probably wouldnt use more companions, i could see some who would want to, and just implementing the more companions mod would seem more logical to me than this.  i wouldnt use it.  but it makes more sense to me.  and im not at all against implementation of it.  more features = better, as long as they are good features that dont ruin gameplay somehow.
again, thats my only concern.

As Monnikje mentioned - this is stuff from quite a while ago. And i really cant be bothered to dig through suggestions - though if you want to dig, it should be somewhere around one of lazeras' posts. There was quite some interest into the feature, it was already written by somebody else and it seemed interesting enough - that is more than enough for us to give it a shot. We obviously dont implement every tiny thing folks want - we implement stuff that is either convenient to implement or interesting enough to keep us at it.

Why not implement more companions instead of this? Well the modificiations you mentioned regarding this were ... done in a manner that we dont want in the pack anymore. Its a good quantity, but quality suffered from that. Monnikje has added a few new companions himself - with a good background story and good dialogs, but that is a lot of work. This feature is easier to do (as most of it has already been done) and it is not the same. It offers heros that are a lot harder to come by than companions, but at the same time dont need a huge amount of work for the player to build up and the developer to create. It increases the overall gameplay variety and saves time.

The system however strikes me as suboptimal. If you ask me, the main point in companions is that they grow together with the player and can be customized to contribute specific skills (be it fighting or party skills) to the party. With the proposed system however you wouldn't be able to recruit these heroes until very late in the game. By that time you should have a complete set of companions and not require anybody else. And in some of the proposals, you wouldn't even be able to customize them. So they wouldn't really be companions.

I'm not having any really striking ideas here, but maybe the "promotion" from troop to companion shouldn't be based on experience, but rather something else. Something that allows hero recruitment in early/mid-game (instead of very late) and still limits the number of companions you can get this way. Maybe some kind of quest? Or a specific situation, e.g. you're down and the troop is the last survivor of your side and saves you? I dunno....

The important thing to note is that these are not companions - these are special units, which are meant to be hard to obtain. What you are describing in your post sounds like a suggestion to improve the companion system (make quests to get them) and does not quite fit this troop based system. (If we use easy quests, we get the immortal army. If we use hard quests, its a late game feature again.)

Its also very time consuming to write quests. Even simple ones.

 

[gesia]

The important thing to note is that these are not companions - these are special units, which are meant to be hard to obtain.

So they wouldn't even act as companions in the sense of contributing party skills or becoming lords? In that case I wouldn't call this "upgrading troops to companions", but rather "making tier 7 immortal" - and I don't think that's what the original implementation was aiming for...

 

[Duh]

The important thing to note is that these are not companions - these are special units, which are meant to be hard to obtain.

So they wouldn't even act as companions in the sense of contributing party skills or becoming lords? In that case I wouldn't call this "upgrading troops to companions", but rather "making tier 7 immortal" - and I don't think that's what the original implementation was aiming for...

Its called neither . Its called upgrading troops to heros. As i have said before - i did not like the original implementation and therefore ventured from its path. Its up to you and others to discuss the basic lines the team has laid out as possible systems.

PS: The original implementation is largely the code you see above. The only things changed were the troops used and the simple trigger (where i shifted from a 2 month check to experience accumulated and in party check.)

 

[gesia]

Its up to you and others to discuss the basic lines the team has laid out as possible systems.

Meaning... Pick one of the above?

Then I'd say keep the troop exactly as it is, possibly allowing the player to customize the equipment. Anything else would be somewhat strange... I mean, why would the skills suddenly change?

 

[Duh]

Its up to you and others to discuss the basic lines the team has laid out as possible systems.

Meaning... Pick one of the above?

Then I'd say keep the troop exactly as it is, possibly allowing the player to customize the equipment. Anything else would be somewhat strange... I mean, why would the skills suddenly change?

Right. If we would make it an entirely open discussion, things would wander very fast from what we initially thought about to several systems that are utterly different. Considering that many folks dont know the code required to do sth and that we can build these 4 options on top of what has already been coded, it is a limited choice. That doesnt mean we wont pick up an awesome idea, if it is workable, just that the feedback should generally be aimed at what we laid out.

I agree with you on the options, but the con to keeping it as the same troop is that its limiting the player. Some folks love to customize. It really depends on what the overall feedback is - thats what we ll go with.