Upgradable Workshops

[ElCrisp]

If an upgraded workshop were to simply increase consumption and outputs, the price behavior that @Bannerman Man demontrated for breweries would be even more tricky for other types of workshops.
Given grain is quite abundant and stable in price the increased consumption doesnt result in huge cost rises. For other workshops though this would likely create shortages and hence price rises for inputs and over supply and price drops for outputs leading to low profits.
Perhaps in certain cases oscillating between next to no profits and haulting production for the workshop.

Moden markets are large so few enterprises produce enough to oversupply their own markets there for an increase in production correlates pretty neatly with an increase in profits, in the cases were they are capable of oversupply their own market (and the goods are non perishable) they just dont sell them until prices are better. OPEC exists as a cartel to stop the over production of oil for example.

High prosperity in the late game was creating inflation in the game economy, due to demand increasing faster than production or more accurately more inconsistantly

Workshops have a static average production..

Villages have 3 tiers to the amount of raw goods they produce as they increase in hearths. The fact that this isnt on a smooth gradient is really weird because demand is.on a gradient that is connected to prosperity,

Raw materials supplied by villages is also affected by banditry. Bandit parties seem to grow with some combination of player level and in game time passed. Which means late game supply of raw good is more volatile.

On top of this raiding plays a role, it is very difficult to increase hearths rapidly to recover from a raid.
They recently made a change so hearths grow at +1 in the first tier +0.75 in the second tier and + 0.5 in the third tier.
Villages used to just grow by a flat +1 so in a relative sense vilages recover faster than they grow. But the overall nerf seems very weird given the inflation that existed in late game.

All this is to say the game economy is complicated which makes it all the more important to ramp up iterative changes and testing. If they feel safer doing it on an alpha so less people whine when the game gets worse before it gets better, so be it.

 

[Lusitani 5th Empire]

The only difference between player workshops and npc workshops are the labor wages. The player pays the workers of each workshop 25g per day, while npcs pay 50g. Otherwise inputs, outputs, production rate, etc are all identical. In the test where I keep 12 breweries, I'm switching the production type of the other 11 to something else before selling them, so the only breweries left in the world are the 12 I own. In the first test there are 23 total breweries in the world, all owned by me; and in the second test there are 12 total breweries in the world, all owned by me. Npcs aren't controlling breweries in either case (artisans produce 1 beer every other day though).

Sorry missed that part. But if you don't own them, they are all still producing right?
Also, do you know what the income would be if you don't change the production type of the other 11? So, you would sell those and maintain the 12 good ones. To know the difference between the player owning 23 vs 12 (under the same conditions) - having 23 should be better than 12, in theory.
Do you know the practical effect of this "The player pays the workers of each workshop 25g per day, while npcs pay 50g.", if any?

 

[Blood Gryphon]

If an upgraded workshop were to simply increase consumption and outputs, the price behavior that @Bannerman Man demontrated for breweries would be even more tricky for other types of workshops.

Yep, this is why if they were going to do an upgraded workshop they should just drop the input costs of workshops. Like he explained here.

For 12 breweries globally, profits jump to about 4600g/day, and for 23 breweries globally, profits jump to about 3800g/day, so an extra 50g and 39g per brewery on average respectively, which is decent. For breweries specifically, it won't make as much difference, because grain only costs ~8 to 9g, so you're saving about 32-36g on input costs per workshop. There is less variation in the price of grain with slight quantity changes than with other input goods. Dropping input costs could be the way to go though.

Wow I derped hard on the grain pricing

 

[MostBlunted]

Can I get an official answer? I mean you (TW) said you are enganging with the community?

And it´s a really simple yes/no question.

 

[Dr-Shinobi]

Can I get an official answer? I mean you (TW) said you are enganging with the community?

And it´s a really simple yes/no question.

didnt i explained why they couldnt to you ? is it really that important ? But well lets see if they make an statement about this even if i dont see the point for this urgency good sir

 

[Bannerman Man]

@ElCrisp That's all spot on.

Sorry missed that part. But if you don't own them, they are all still producing right?

Yes, npc workshops still produce goods identically to how player owned workshops do. So for the 11 that I switched production and sold, they would be producing pottery, wine, tools, etc; just not beer.

Also, do you know what the income would be if you don't change the production type of the other 11? So, you would sell those and maintain the 12 good ones. To know the difference between the player owning 23 vs 12 (under the same conditions) - having 23 should be better than 12, in theory.

Just tried that test. Kept all 23 workshops as breweries and sold off the same 11 to npcs, so now they control 11 breweries and I control 12. My profits for those 12 are about 1800g/day.

The main point is that 23 breweries is too many for the world in the early stages of a new game. They're overproducing beer and tanking its price. The price curve of items is not linear. At high quantities the price change is relatively flat and does not vary much with added quantities. At low quantities the price change is steep and can vary drastically with a change in quantity. Here's a graph of the approximate price of beer vs quantity at a prosperity of 4000:

隐藏: 1

With 23 breweries the price will be toward the right (flat) side of the curve, and with only 12 breweries the price will be toward the left (steep) side of the curve.

Note: There is some "stickiness" with prices, and they do not change the full amount instantly. The current price will drift toward the correct price by about 15% per day, so if there is a large shift in quantities of an item, it will take some amount of days for the price to catch up and match the price for the given quantity.

Do you know the practical effect of this "The player pays the workers of each workshop 25g per day, while npcs pay 50g.", if any?

Npcs will earn 25g less income than the player from their workshops per day, because wages are only paid once a day.

 

[mexxico]

As far as upgradable workshops goes, I don't think it's as cut and dried as just increasing the rate of production. If workshops are using more raw goods as inputs, and producing more manufactured goods as outputs, it will end up increasing the price of the input (because the quantity of that item in the town/world will be lower), and it will decrease the price of the output (because the quantity of that item in the town/world will be higher), which might actually lower your overall profits.

Here's a test to show what I mean:

I started a new game and used the console to give myself every brewery in the world (23 in all), and let the game run for awhile to see where my profits levelled out. With 23 workshops, I was earning roughly 2900g/day (+/- 500). A normal brewery will turn 8 grain into 8 beer per day.

隐藏

Once the profits stablized, I switched the least profitable half of the breweries to another production and sold them back to the notables, so I was left with 12 breweries. After waiting a few months for the quantity of goods to stablize, my profits had shot up to ~4000g/day, so I was earning over 1k higher profits with half the workshops.

隐藏

I then exited the game and went into the workshop xml file and doubled the production rate of breweries so that each one turned 16 grain into 16 beer per day, and reloaded the save where I owned 12 breweries. My profits jumped substantially for a few weeks, but then dropped way back down to slightly below what they were when I owned all 23 workshops, to about 2500g/day.

隐藏

I then adjusted the brewery variables again so that each one turned 8 grain into 16 beer per day (so a 1:2 ratio of inputs/outputs), and reloaded the save where I owned 12 breweries. My profits again jumped briefly, but then slowly fell until they stablized to about 3500g/day, which is lower than 12 workshops turning 8 grain into 8 beer.

隐藏

So the takeaway from this is that there is a sweetspot for global production rate of goods by workshops, and just raising the input/output numbers for upgrades might not result in better profits. The best outcome here was 12 total breweries in the world turning 8 grain into 8 beer per day.

Edit: formatting

Great examination. Reason of this is there is a demand for each item in world. A town with 1000 prosperity consume 1000 x "demand for beer" times beer a day. Actually there are two demands : 1-standard demand, 2-demand for prosperity exceed 3000 and total of these two demands give you final demand. Some expensive items have higher 3000+ prosperity demand (out of topic).

Anyway even all breweries convert 2x grain to beer daily in world there is no demand for that much beer. So after some time unsold beers will stock and beer price will drop. Then if you are monopolized all breweries you cannot make 2x profit even conversation speed is 2x because beer price reduces and get closer to grain price so each conversation give you less profit. However if you only increase conversation speed of one brewery probably it will make more profit compared other breweries.

About upgrading workshops will be enabled or not in future, I have no idea. Its variable is placed there for possible feature. It can be added "soon" or not.

 

[HugoTheFrenchMan]

soon

He said the word

PS thanks for the info

 

[Bannerman Man]

However if you only increase conversation speed of one brewery probably it will make more profit compared other breweries.

That's true. Although, if npcs are also able to upgrade workshops, then you might still get an oversupply problem for a certain items, even if the player doesn't upgrade their own workshops. It might be worth testing what percentage of the total workshops of a particular type could be upgraded before profits start to drop due to overproduction.

 

[Wolfmensch007]

Well i am actually a paid troll and fanboy from TW after all xD

Hey you know its true