Unit balance really needs to be looked at

[Kane the Flesheater]

Well as said before - we cant reduce the number of troops , because of savegame compatability.
(And i think your goal was to slim them down)

1. Make a new tree

2a. Leave the units from the previous tree ingame, but disable the ability (what?!) to train and upgrade them, have a mess in troops.txt, everybody is wearing fake smiles

2b. DO NOT include the old tree, everybody needs to start a new game (like a Diablo Ladder Reset), no more obscure bugs, everybody's happy, even though they act like they're angry

3. ? ? ?

4. Problem, bugs?

 

[Duh]

no more obscure bugs

I am not quite catching what you are pitching there. As long as we are fiddling with the code, there will be obscure bugs

Also the Mod Pack will follow the Path of savegame compatibility - If you wish to use different troops you are free to change them using the troop editor (check faq) or reverting back to native troops. But the official version of the pack wont do that for now.

 

[imgran]

Theres nothing wrong with having lots of different troops for different things imo.

Its just difficult to actually get it to work that way, to get them to all actually serve a purpose and be balanced. But if you can then this mod will be brilliant!

Too many moving pieces IMHO.  The more moving pieces a plan has the more likely you are to fall victim to unintended consequences.  The unit system in this mod tries to do too much and winds up collapsing under its own ambition.

Which would you have, sucky balance and the unit system works, or everyone playing the best mod you can have even if they have to start over?

 

[Kane the Flesheater]

I am not quite catching what you are pitching there. As long as we are fiddling with the code, there will be obscure bugs

Also the Mod Pack will follow the Path of savegame compatibility - If you wish to use different troops you are free to change them using the troop editor (check faq) or reverting back to native troops. But the official version of the pack wont do that for now.

What I meant to say, is that, because of the forced restart, people will not be experiencing some bugs, that are showing up, because of their laziness/sentiment. Yeah, I understand people, who don't want every patch to force them to start a new game. Would've been pissed off myself, but once in a while there is a need for a huge update, and everybody has to deal with it. I do not think, that You'd lose any loyal followers because of that move, but when the mod would be praised, because of the no-bull**** troop tree, then, hey, it'd be more popular, right?

It's not that we are proposing firearms, or a Roman Legion army or some heavily heavily controversial and out of place thingie here. We are talking about the one thing, that is the salt in our eyes, and which firmly stands in the path of greatness for this mod. There are still some bugs, and such, but adding new content, You'll still be treading the same territory as before. The only way to step further is to upgrade the troop tree. No other way.

Drop the nonsense filler troops, that nobody in their right mind is picking, drop those that AI has no clue how to use, and drop those, that are the epitome of historical accuracy, and field unusability at the same time.

You update the mod = no global whining for quite some time, it's a win-win situation!

At least give us the benefit of doubt, and cosider this, please, for the sake of the WORLD!

 

[Boeing]

I'm working on a merge of the Pike and Blade troop tree and Floris as we speak.

It's working - I just want to add some of the new items to the troops to spice things up. I just added P&B's extra troops to the end of the troops file. So the Floris units are there, just dormant, so I don't have to go fixing all the calls to merchants and the like sprinkled through.

 

[imgran]

While you've got the hood open so to speak could you make sure all the lords have shirts?

Please?  Pretty please?

 

[Hieronymous]

I just 'rediscovered' the Custom (or is it Quick) Battle option in the game menu, and it seems this would be a possible way to playtest relative troop strength...?

I played 200 Swadians (1/3I, 1/3A, 1/3C - obviously not every faction's best set-up but hey.. ) against the other factions and saw very clearly results that reflect the previous posts on this thread. I.E. The Nords, and Rhodoks are weak and the Vaegirs very tough.

Ultimately,  with 200 men each (1/3I,1/3A,1/3C), Order:"Charge",

1 Vaegirs
2 Sarranids
3 Swadians?
4 Khergits?
5 Nords
6 Rhodoks

I, for one, would be willing to run various tests (All Inf, All Cav, Sieges, etc..) with 'Quick (or is it Custom) Battle' and report the results here for any new troop tweak or tree overhauls.

Surely, with the correct troop balances, battles should end quite even? ..
..Shouldn't any faction be able to beat anyone provided they're set-up and directed appropriately.

Also, does anyone know of any Custom Battle Mods? - More characters, maps, options etc... if not I would definitely start looking into making one ...?

 

[imgran]

The issue with the Vaegirs is that they have a buttkicking I3, the Vaegir Grid', which is armed with leather jerkin, shield and hammer.  For a T3, that's pretty serious.  The AI doesn't often go above T4, and no other unit short of about T4 is a match for the Grid'.  Not the Ecruyer, not the Timariot, not the Kipchak.  Becuse it is T3 the Grid' is common enough in the Vaegir battie lines that it kind of takes over the fights and really puts the hurt on anyone else. 

Basically for all the unit variety this mod boasts. players have no incentive to fill their ranks with anything other than the Grid' and its offspring.  The fact that they're all armed with blunt weapons and thus perfect bandit hunters doesn't help either.  Oh, and its dominant development wing grows into tier 6 heavy armored cavalry.  I have encountered nothing that can seriously faze them 1 for 1.  For some reason hammers are just ridiculously unbalanced weapons in this mod, dunno why.  Probably because the engine makes blunt damage work fairly well against armored opponents.  Regardless, the Vaegirs need to be nerfed, badly.  Nerfing the Grid'/Druzennik line would help game balance a lot. It wouldn't be a cure all since too many units were still put together more with an eye towards being "period" than being balanced and effective, and the AI is still screwed up because it won't use units over T4, but it would certainly be a step in the right direction..

 

[imgran]

Alright, I got curious and poked around, I don't think the real problem is per se the troop list anymore.

I think the problem lies in the Party Templates.  Because only the Vaegirs have a single unit listed under Party_Template.txt that's over tier 4.  And it's guess what, the Vaegir Elitniy Druzennik, the culmination of the incredibly overbalanced Grid' line.  Someone with access to the actual mod code needs to really get their hands dirty in the official party_templates.txt and make sure all the great and amazing variety of units that are on the troop tree actually show up in AI armies.  Otherwise what's the point?

 

[CEO]

Just as long as they dont show up too often!

I'm fine with the AI having some high level troops when they havent been defeated recently, but if they get these high level troops back on respawn, it could be game breaking.

It is already very difficult to start your own empires as the AI tends to show up with a completely refreshed army every week. =)

 

[Caba`drin]

Someone with access to the actual mod code needs to really get their hands dirty in the official party_templates.txt and make sure all the great and amazing variety of units that are on the troop tree actually show up in AI armies.

Everyone has access to the actual mod code:
http://www.easy-share.com/1913430238/Floris%20Expanded%20Mod%20Pack%202.2%20Source.rar  OR
http://depositfiles.com/files/515v2693m  OR
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=705OE4Y8

These links are taken from the Intro/Downloads thread, in the Expanded pack's post (the 3rd post).

 

[imgran]

OK, I should rephrase that as "someone who has a better feel for what the unit tree is supposed to be and is more prepared than I am to take the heat if they screw up"

And since I've fought multiple wars against veteran armies and very rarely saw a SINGLE unit above T4  It think you have to include elite units in the respawns.  Just take more time preparing yourself with bandit fights before you become a vassal.

 

[pada]

this seems to extend heavily into the core gameplay, in my current game swadia is doing ok, vaegirs have wiped out the nords, and sarranids have taken over half of khergits with swadians grabbing the other half.

imho the troop tree needs to be simplified and drawn down, saved game compatibility be damned. Why would i recruit swadian hobilairs when I can get knights? longbowmen seem more worthwhile than any of the jacobites since they each have a sword and shield.

the diagram the one guy posted in this thread looks about right to me, as I can echo the sentiments that the only major issue I see with this mod is the over extensive troop tree, cool as it is.

 

[Duh]

this seems to extend heavily into the core gameplay, in my current game swadia is doing ok, vaegirs have wiped out the nords, and sarranids have taken over half of khergits with swadians grabbing the other half.

imho the troop tree needs to be simplified and drawn down, saved game compatibility be damned. Why would i recruit swadian hobilairs when I can get knights? longbowmen seem more worthwhile than any of the jacobites since they each have a sword and shield.

the diagram the one guy posted in this thread looks about right to me, as I can echo the sentiments that the only major issue I see with this mod is the over extensive troop tree, cool as it is.

If you dont care about savegames use the optional trooptree provided by Rallix or revert back to the native troop tree. The only thing not working will be the troop tree viewer.

 

[pada]

this seems to extend heavily into the core gameplay, in my current game swadia is doing ok, vaegirs have wiped out the nords, and sarranids have taken over half of khergits with swadians grabbing the other half.

imho the troop tree needs to be simplified and drawn down, saved game compatibility be damned. Why would i recruit swadian hobilairs when I can get knights? longbowmen seem more worthwhile than any of the jacobites since they each have a sword and shield.

the diagram the one guy posted in this thread looks about right to me, as I can echo the sentiments that the only major issue I see with this mod is the over extensive troop tree, cool as it is.

If you dont care about savegames use the optional trooptree provided by Rallix or revert back to the native troop tree. The only thing not working will be the troop tree viewer.

Will it work with the extended version? says its for the basic version only

 

[CEO]

this seems to extend heavily into the core gameplay, in my current game swadia is doing ok, vaegirs have wiped out the nords, and sarranids have taken over half of khergits with swadians grabbing the other half.

This is EXACTLY what has happened in my game. Rhodoks are fine only because noone has warred with them, Nords are completely gone (via Swadians and Vaegirs) and Khergits have their capitol and 1 castle left (thanks to Sarrinids).

A rebalance would be a great addition from some enterprising modder willing to put the time into doing it. =)

 

[MilosM]

In my game only Khergits are almost wiped out, they have only two castles left.
But i think that troops have nothing to do with this, have you ever checked how many lords are left to those struggling factions? The only reason factions get eliminated is because lords are often changing their lieges.
Sometime Swadia gets wiped out, once i played for around 400 days and Swadia had King Harlaus + 5 lords while Vagirs had around 30 lords.You sad something about balance? This stupid renouncing needs to be balanced or removed.I wil post this in suggestions.

Not only they need balancing, but troops should be created from scratch.
I like this mod i really do, but you messed up pretty baddly with troops.
I don't understand why you are trying to create troops with historicaly accurate names? This game takes place in Calradia.Does anybody knows where Calradia is?
Everything is fictional in this game so there is no need for historical accuracy.
Until you create factions with names like France, Britain etc. you should create your troops based on those from native M&B.
So please create some more simplified troop sistem and name them as simple as possible.There is nothing wrong with names like Rhodok Spearman or Saranid horseman, they are simple and resemble exactly what they should

 

[pada]

In my game only Khergits are almost wiped out, they have only two castles left.
But i think that troops have nothing to do with this, have you ever checked how many lords are left to those struggling factions? The only reason factions get eliminated is because lords are often changing their lieges.
Sometime Swadia gets wiped out, once i played for around 400 days and Swadia had King Harlaus + 5 lords while Vagirs had around 30 lords.You sad something about balance? This stupid renouncing needs to be balanced or removed.I wil post this in suggestions.

Not only they need balancing, but troops should be created from scratch.
I like this mod i really do, but you messed up pretty baddly with troops.
I don't understand why you are trying to create troops with historicaly accurate names? This game takes place in Calradia.Does anybody knows where Calradia is?
Everything is fictional in this game so there is no need for historical accuracy.
Until you create factions with names like France, Britain etc. you should create your troops based on those from native M&B.
So please create some more simplified troop sistem and name them as simple as possible.There is nothing wrong with names like Rhodok Spearman or Saranid horseman, they are simple and resemble exactly what they should

yeah if renouncing is causing this it needs to be removed. I'm only 150 days in and the nords are wiped out. way to fast imho.

 

[imgran]

I have made a promising development.

I rebalanced the party template and loaded more T6 and above units to the nations that have fared the worst (Khergit, Nord, Rhodok) and rebalanced their spawns to play more to their strengths.  I also took out a lot of T3 or below units.  Boosted the Swadians as well, mostly in terms of numbers, because they're stuck in the middle and need something.  So far the result is that the Nords immediately took Curaw from the Vaegirs, and while the Swadians took one castle from the Rhodoks it isn't a free for all on their territory at least.  It's still early in the test game, but my adjustments I've noticed have also made opposing AI tougher for the player in the field which I consider a bonus..

Will supply the party_templates.txt if asked.

 

[pada]

I have made a promising development.

I rebalanced the party template and loaded more T6 and above units to the nations that have fared the worst (Khergit, Nord, Rhodok) and rebalanced their spawns to play more to their strengths.  I also took out a lot of T3 or below units.  Boosted the Swadians as well, mostly in terms of numbers, because they're stuck in the middle and need something.  So far the result is that the Nords immediately took Curaw from the Vaegirs, and while the Swadians took one castle from the Rhodoks it isn't a free for all on their territory at least.  It's still early in the test game, but my adjustments I've noticed have also made opposing AI tougher for the player in the field which I consider a bonus..

Will supply the party_templates.txt if asked.

I've also just modified most of the nord troop trees, keeping all the troops in tact. one immediate problem is that some of the nord L3 troops have armour with only 11 armour rating, which is a bit below the armour of the tier 3 troops right off the bat. I also stripped out most of the spears and moved the nords back to more axes, armour and javelins.

It appears to me that due to the volume of content some of the troops ended up with armour that was too high/low vs others of the same tier by a significant amount, leading to a  big balance problem.  I also reloaded for more tier 5 + troops and it seems to be helping a lot as well.