The drawback to this (and I agree some boosts have to be made) is that troop changes usually means NOT save game compatible. So I hate to start/continue my game knowing it will soon be for naught.
Unit balance really needs to be looked at
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MasterCaruyn
Sergeant
I agree that the Nords really lost their previous power. I get the best Nord units and they fall like flies all around me. They get slaughtered for some reason.
unluckySOB
Regular
its just so sad for me to see my favorite faction the nords dropping like flies.i've played this through once already on 2.01 as swads(a faction i really dislike due to their close relation to the english and french)and i wiped the entire nord faction out in less than 3 hours. so now i'm downloading 2.1 and i really have to wonder if the nords have received any much needed love in the update?
monnikje 说:
It would work better if the weapons used by all units in the game were predominantly spears (80% and up), which is relatively accurate to the time period. Swords were expensive and restricted to the noble class even if you could afford one.
It was one shabby, dirty mob fighting another in a fight where most who fought had no stake in victory other than survival, and thus preferred cheap defensive weapons: Spears.
I would say the ideal lay-out would be:
80% Spears.
10% Axes.
5% Swords.
5% Maces.
Swords being a 'bit' more common for the Sarranids and Khergits. Maces being slightly more common for the Sarranids, as well.
Maxwell Cordova
Recruit
Every faction should have one/two/three trees and weapon types thats the longest, or longer than others, up to 7 or 8 or whatever, that way all the factions will have their own feel and hopefully uniquer units, at least up at the high end.
examples;
Nords:
have 2 handed axemen with plate armour up to I7 or I8, they'd also have one handed axemen with lighter armour and huscarl shields and perhaps throwing axes on the last 2 slots, up to say I5. spearmen up to I3, no cavalry. i think they shouldnt have archers or any dedicated ranged unit, because their one handed axemen should have throwing weapons for every tier. maybe the 2 handed axemen should come with 1 stack of throwing weapons.
rhodoks:
crossbow men up to A8, using arbalests, a shield and a smallish one handed non-thrusting sword, everyone before say I6 should be using a dagger or knife of some sort and some chainmail armour, not plate. spearmen/halberdiers up to I5 - not sure if the best ones should have shields or not. swordsmen up to I3. no cavalry
swadia:
knight like lancers up to C8 with lances, knightly swords and kite shields, plate armour and armoured horses at the highest levels. weaker knight like men-at-arms up to I5 with mail armour, knight swords and shields, perhaps with some sort of polearm too. seperate spear tree like the other factions too. crossbowmen up to A3 with no weapon bigger than a dagger
vaegirs:
2 handed mace infantry up to I8, 1 handed mace infantry up to I5. cavalry up to C3, also blunt weapons. weakish archers up to A3, only weapons that cant be used to block. no spearmen.
khergit:
horse archers up to C8. lighter lancers up to C5. even lighter horsemen with non-thrusting swords up to C3
sarranids:
archers up to A8, they should get their weapons that can be used to block quite early on, maybe A4. mamaluke cavalry up to C5. infantry up to I3 using blunt weapons. spearmen up to I3.
with something like this all the factions should hopefully have a unique feel to them
examples;
Nords:
have 2 handed axemen with plate armour up to I7 or I8, they'd also have one handed axemen with lighter armour and huscarl shields and perhaps throwing axes on the last 2 slots, up to say I5. spearmen up to I3, no cavalry. i think they shouldnt have archers or any dedicated ranged unit, because their one handed axemen should have throwing weapons for every tier. maybe the 2 handed axemen should come with 1 stack of throwing weapons.
rhodoks:
crossbow men up to A8, using arbalests, a shield and a smallish one handed non-thrusting sword, everyone before say I6 should be using a dagger or knife of some sort and some chainmail armour, not plate. spearmen/halberdiers up to I5 - not sure if the best ones should have shields or not. swordsmen up to I3. no cavalry
swadia:
knight like lancers up to C8 with lances, knightly swords and kite shields, plate armour and armoured horses at the highest levels. weaker knight like men-at-arms up to I5 with mail armour, knight swords and shields, perhaps with some sort of polearm too. seperate spear tree like the other factions too. crossbowmen up to A3 with no weapon bigger than a dagger
vaegirs:
2 handed mace infantry up to I8, 1 handed mace infantry up to I5. cavalry up to C3, also blunt weapons. weakish archers up to A3, only weapons that cant be used to block. no spearmen.
khergit:
horse archers up to C8. lighter lancers up to C5. even lighter horsemen with non-thrusting swords up to C3
sarranids:
archers up to A8, they should get their weapons that can be used to block quite early on, maybe A4. mamaluke cavalry up to C5. infantry up to I3 using blunt weapons. spearmen up to I3.
with something like this all the factions should hopefully have a unique feel to them
minsc
Regular
I think Vaegir troops, or at least their actual warbands, are quite overpowered. Their archers are powerful, but understandable as that should be their faction strength.
It's mainly the hammer wielding troops that are so ridiculous relative to other factions. It certainly is not their faction weakness. I had a quick look at their I3-5 stats and their powerstrike combined with weapon speed and blunt damage gives them a very large advantage. Playing as the nords, which supposedly have excellent infantry, and even I4 or I5 huscarl troops have a really tough time against equivalent (or even 'weaker') vaegirs troops.
Still, main imbalance are the bloody C6 Vaegir Elitniy Druzhinniks. Every army has a fair amount of them, and they can absolutely decimate anything else. No other faction troop gives me as much trouble as these guys.
I have 60 armour on both head and body, and 70hp. These badasses regularly knock me out in one or two hits, and that's not even when they are charging on horse for speed bonus or bump-slash. So imagine how well they do against regular AI troops. Combine this one-hit attack power with their heavy armour, and they could easily take out any other troop. They can be managed on the battlefield through positioning to stop their charges (e.g. hills), but the main problem is the sieges.
The amount of sieges I've lost just because of these guys is ridiculous. Sometimes I would see these guys would on average get 10-15+ knockouts each in a siege. Was tempted to record it in fraps or something to show how crazy they can be.
I find Sarranid and Swadian cavalry (or armies in general) to be far easier to deal with.
It's mainly the hammer wielding troops that are so ridiculous relative to other factions. It certainly is not their faction weakness. I had a quick look at their I3-5 stats and their powerstrike combined with weapon speed and blunt damage gives them a very large advantage. Playing as the nords, which supposedly have excellent infantry, and even I4 or I5 huscarl troops have a really tough time against equivalent (or even 'weaker') vaegirs troops.
Still, main imbalance are the bloody C6 Vaegir Elitniy Druzhinniks. Every army has a fair amount of them, and they can absolutely decimate anything else. No other faction troop gives me as much trouble as these guys.
I have 60 armour on both head and body, and 70hp. These badasses regularly knock me out in one or two hits, and that's not even when they are charging on horse for speed bonus or bump-slash. So imagine how well they do against regular AI troops. Combine this one-hit attack power with their heavy armour, and they could easily take out any other troop. They can be managed on the battlefield through positioning to stop their charges (e.g. hills), but the main problem is the sieges.
The amount of sieges I've lost just because of these guys is ridiculous. Sometimes I would see these guys would on average get 10-15+ knockouts each in a siege. Was tempted to record it in fraps or something to show how crazy they can be.
I find Sarranid and Swadian cavalry (or armies in general) to be far easier to deal with.
Not sure what to do with the Nords but the solution for the Rhodoks is absurdly simple: arm their archers better.
The one thing really going for the Rhodokx was that getting in close with their archer class wasn't a guaranteed win. The Rhodok Sharpshooter could handle himself if it came to blows because he had a military pick or another weapon of a kind that allowed him to do some damage, plus the huge board shield that all Rhodok archer types apparently still have.
You can't go pure archer specialist and arm the Rhodokx with daggers and short swords. Doesn't work. The unit class and the engine are not balanced to allow that to work. Rhodok crossbowmen need to be able to hold their own when (not if) cavalry gets through to them. They shoot too slow to prevent closing, and Rhodok infantry is too slow to hold off the first wave, if the first wave happens to be Ecruyers, Timariots or Morici's. The fact that Rhodok infantry utterly SUCKS doesn't help either.
Also, each nation needs at least one unit that's as powerful on attack as the Vaegir Militniy Druzinnik, which is ridiculous. Druzinniks are incredibly unbalanced with powerful, quick heavy hammer weapons and no fear of using them. That entire chain starting at the Grid' is just a little too effective, and it gives a hint for how to answer issues with other underpowered infantry types -- more hammers or one handed axes with a high speed rating would go a long way. In the Rhodok's case, the Military Pick and Spiked Staff are canon weapons that would go a long way to the positive.
The fact that's being overlooked here is that Piercing and Blunt damage are better at getting through armor than ordinary cut damage is. Swords are great against unarmored units, but only top of the line swords are all that effective against anything with a body AC of more than about 35. Piercing and blunt damage (and axes that do extra damage to shields) are better bets against the kind of enemies that really bug Rhodoks and Nords.
Also with Nords in particular you really want to stop screwing around with lightly armored base infantry. The armor might look period, but it doesn't stack up, especially for a race that ignores cavalry altogether and thus should if anything be BETTER armored. Having unstoppable T7 Nordish jugggernaut units is fine but the AI won't use them. Some kind of stalwart, hardy core class taking up space in the T4 area somewhere, like the Militniy Druzinnik for the Vaegirs, who I note has Studded Leather and thus outclasses by 10 armor points most of the T4 Nord units I saw.
Similar issues exist among the Khergits. It is entirely too easy to take a city from the Khergits with an army of Druzinniks and then hold it indefinitely from wave after wave of Khergit sieges. The reason is simple -- most of the really decent Khergit units are beyond the range where the AI will actually use them. It's nice to have 'em on the tree, but they don't really effect the balance properly if every good Khergit fighter is T5 or higher.
So if I had 3 suggestions, they would be as follows
1: Nerf the Druzinniks. I love 'em, but they're too much of a one-size-fits-all solution as they're tough, reasonably well armored, and boast that powerful hammer. They need an armor downgrade to justify everything else they have going for them.
2: Military pick on the Balistere and similar. If you want to go whole hog and put a weakish hammer on 'em fine, but don't think "Rhodok crossbowmen. OK, archers. OK, dagger." In their unique circumstance that does NOT work
3: More armor and/or bigger shields for the Nords. PLEASE. I don't care if it doesn't look like a historically accurate viking, because you know what? The vikings LOST, and they aren't here anymore to defend their side of things. No one is going to be mad at you for historically inaccurate vikings. Nord fans are going to be mad at you when the AI on their side boasts nothing bot a swarm of sheap sucky spears and armorless fodder. Survivable Nordish units need t start somewhere at tier 3, please and thank you. The idea that Nords are owned that badly by Vaegirs in castles where Vaegir mounted advantage is weakened is just lame.
That's all, hope there's something there you can use.
The one thing really going for the Rhodokx was that getting in close with their archer class wasn't a guaranteed win. The Rhodok Sharpshooter could handle himself if it came to blows because he had a military pick or another weapon of a kind that allowed him to do some damage, plus the huge board shield that all Rhodok archer types apparently still have.
You can't go pure archer specialist and arm the Rhodokx with daggers and short swords. Doesn't work. The unit class and the engine are not balanced to allow that to work. Rhodok crossbowmen need to be able to hold their own when (not if) cavalry gets through to them. They shoot too slow to prevent closing, and Rhodok infantry is too slow to hold off the first wave, if the first wave happens to be Ecruyers, Timariots or Morici's. The fact that Rhodok infantry utterly SUCKS doesn't help either.
Also, each nation needs at least one unit that's as powerful on attack as the Vaegir Militniy Druzinnik, which is ridiculous. Druzinniks are incredibly unbalanced with powerful, quick heavy hammer weapons and no fear of using them. That entire chain starting at the Grid' is just a little too effective, and it gives a hint for how to answer issues with other underpowered infantry types -- more hammers or one handed axes with a high speed rating would go a long way. In the Rhodok's case, the Military Pick and Spiked Staff are canon weapons that would go a long way to the positive.
The fact that's being overlooked here is that Piercing and Blunt damage are better at getting through armor than ordinary cut damage is. Swords are great against unarmored units, but only top of the line swords are all that effective against anything with a body AC of more than about 35. Piercing and blunt damage (and axes that do extra damage to shields) are better bets against the kind of enemies that really bug Rhodoks and Nords.
Also with Nords in particular you really want to stop screwing around with lightly armored base infantry. The armor might look period, but it doesn't stack up, especially for a race that ignores cavalry altogether and thus should if anything be BETTER armored. Having unstoppable T7 Nordish jugggernaut units is fine but the AI won't use them. Some kind of stalwart, hardy core class taking up space in the T4 area somewhere, like the Militniy Druzinnik for the Vaegirs, who I note has Studded Leather and thus outclasses by 10 armor points most of the T4 Nord units I saw.
Similar issues exist among the Khergits. It is entirely too easy to take a city from the Khergits with an army of Druzinniks and then hold it indefinitely from wave after wave of Khergit sieges. The reason is simple -- most of the really decent Khergit units are beyond the range where the AI will actually use them. It's nice to have 'em on the tree, but they don't really effect the balance properly if every good Khergit fighter is T5 or higher.
So if I had 3 suggestions, they would be as follows
1: Nerf the Druzinniks. I love 'em, but they're too much of a one-size-fits-all solution as they're tough, reasonably well armored, and boast that powerful hammer. They need an armor downgrade to justify everything else they have going for them.
2: Military pick on the Balistere and similar. If you want to go whole hog and put a weakish hammer on 'em fine, but don't think "Rhodok crossbowmen. OK, archers. OK, dagger." In their unique circumstance that does NOT work
3: More armor and/or bigger shields for the Nords. PLEASE. I don't care if it doesn't look like a historically accurate viking, because you know what? The vikings LOST, and they aren't here anymore to defend their side of things. No one is going to be mad at you for historically inaccurate vikings. Nord fans are going to be mad at you when the AI on their side boasts nothing bot a swarm of sheap sucky spears and armorless fodder. Survivable Nordish units need t start somewhere at tier 3, please and thank you. The idea that Nords are owned that badly by Vaegirs in castles where Vaegir mounted advantage is weakened is just lame.
That's all, hope there's something there you can use.
Boeing
Sergeant at Arms
There is a serious conceptual flaw for this mod in regard to troops. I've seen it with total war mods as well: breadth and depth are both too large. You don't need a specific unit for each and every scenario. Each type of soldier is capable of being equipped with multiple weapons at random: similar troops at the same tier need to be combined. That ends up working out because the units will look unique (unless they're roman legionaries or a standardized army they won't all have the same kit) and varied. At the smallest breadth each faction needs their groundpounders, longe range unit, and cavalry arm. A unique line for that faction would then round it off properly. Now, depth wise - you don't need 7 different tiers. The AI never gets that far, for one, and most players shouldn't need that deep a troop tree as it is. You have 4-5 tiers, starting with peasants, and ending in the elites.
Here's my proposed model. Each nation has a specialty, right? So lets take the Rhodoks for example. Their specialties are crossbows and polearms. For these guys your troop tree should be something like this:
There's a formula for this: a nation gets to tier 5 in their specialty, and gets a branch or two to balance their most glaring flaws. The cavalry could be armed lightly, perhaps similar to mountain bandits because they're endemic in rhodok lands and could be based on their traditions. The main infantry line gets polearms (and for gameplay balance they should not be 6 meter long pikes), and their secondary line are armed in pale imitation of their Swadian betters.
The Swadians would get their 5th tier in cavalry, Vaegirs in archers, Nords in infantry, Khergits in cavalry. The Sarranids could go either way between infantry and cavalry - for the sake of balance I'd say infantry.
Of course you notice how the Rhodoks have one less in cavalry? That's because it's a weakness for them. Each faction should have its own "hobble" so to speak.
Another note, my only other gripe with this mod is the idea of having mercenaries decked out in hospitallier/teutonic knights livery.
Here's my proposed model. Each nation has a specialty, right? So lets take the Rhodoks for example. Their specialties are crossbows and polearms. For these guys your troop tree should be something like this:
There's a formula for this: a nation gets to tier 5 in their specialty, and gets a branch or two to balance their most glaring flaws. The cavalry could be armed lightly, perhaps similar to mountain bandits because they're endemic in rhodok lands and could be based on their traditions. The main infantry line gets polearms (and for gameplay balance they should not be 6 meter long pikes), and their secondary line are armed in pale imitation of their Swadian betters.
The Swadians would get their 5th tier in cavalry, Vaegirs in archers, Nords in infantry, Khergits in cavalry. The Sarranids could go either way between infantry and cavalry - for the sake of balance I'd say infantry.
Of course you notice how the Rhodoks have one less in cavalry? That's because it's a weakness for them. Each faction should have its own "hobble" so to speak.
Another note, my only other gripe with this mod is the idea of having mercenaries decked out in hospitallier/teutonic knights livery.
Boeing
Sergeant at Arms
Here's my Swadian example. Swadians are highly feudal, right? So whereas the Rhodoks have a core of solid infantry composed of free men the Swadian infantry are mostly feudal levies, with professionals sprinkled throughout. I left in the longbowmen because longbowmen are awesome. They're the "citizen-soldiers" of the Swadian kingdom. The cavalry is highly trained and elite. The sergeant is horseless- meant to "pepper" the weaker swadian infantry with the occasional professional. If only having tier 3 infantry would make a faction easy to steamroll then I could imagine tweaking it.
Duh
Duke
Scully 说:
Consider that what he posted is only a draft.
Even if he did move from the drawn troop tree to actual ingame units with armor, weapons, skills , they would still require
- balancing (just like ours)
- new code to display the trees ingame
Also if you downsize the trooptree like that - you remove troops and therefore break any savegames you might have.
Boeing
Sergeant at Arms
I'm a believer in the maxim that less is more, especially when it comes to M&B troop trees.
I appreciate the work that has been done but the troop trees in this mod are really the only thing keeping it, in my estimation, from being truly excellent.
There are too many units for too many different things. In some cases I have trouble discerning what the actually differences are. Take the Khergits: do we need a tree of light horse archers, heavy horse archers, light cav, and heavy cav, and then some other similar units sprinkled in?
Or the Swadians. You have two different versions of pikemen, on the same level, entirely apart from each other. You also have two different lines of heavy cavalry. Is one supposed to be noble and the other non-noble? Gameplay wise, is that essential? And the Nord tree is just a mess.
I'm not trashing anyone's work but I'm sincere in my criticism. Everything else is fantastic.
I appreciate the work that has been done but the troop trees in this mod are really the only thing keeping it, in my estimation, from being truly excellent.
There are too many units for too many different things. In some cases I have trouble discerning what the actually differences are. Take the Khergits: do we need a tree of light horse archers, heavy horse archers, light cav, and heavy cav, and then some other similar units sprinkled in?
Or the Swadians. You have two different versions of pikemen, on the same level, entirely apart from each other. You also have two different lines of heavy cavalry. Is one supposed to be noble and the other non-noble? Gameplay wise, is that essential? And the Nord tree is just a mess.
I'm not trashing anyone's work but I'm sincere in my criticism. Everything else is fantastic.
If you need a template to start over with, take a look at the Pike And Blade mod. It's got a few balance issues on its own, but it's by and large superior to what's there right now -- far less diverse maybe, but it's easier to see what each nation is supposed to do and the AI is more likely to actuallyt do it.
FOr example, Khergits really do charge you with slashing disruptive cavalry charges that give infantry lovers fits. The Nords maul you with thrown axes and heavy well-shielded infantry. The Rhodoks are built around an impenetrable line of spears, shields and crossbows. The Sarranits, Swadians and Vaegirs do nothing brilliantly and many things well, and have interesting heavy units to prevent them from being pure boring generalists. And the AI actually USES the elite units which is about 1,000 times better than the current system. The result is that if you've beaten an army with 1,000 with an army of 200 in 100% damage, it's because you are good, not just because you're Vaegir.
Take a look. even if you wind up tweaking this or adding that, it's a good place to start if you're going after a balanced game.
FOr example, Khergits really do charge you with slashing disruptive cavalry charges that give infantry lovers fits. The Nords maul you with thrown axes and heavy well-shielded infantry. The Rhodoks are built around an impenetrable line of spears, shields and crossbows. The Sarranits, Swadians and Vaegirs do nothing brilliantly and many things well, and have interesting heavy units to prevent them from being pure boring generalists. And the AI actually USES the elite units which is about 1,000 times better than the current system. The result is that if you've beaten an army with 1,000 with an army of 200 in 100% damage, it's because you are good, not just because you're Vaegir.
Take a look. even if you wind up tweaking this or adding that, it's a good place to start if you're going after a balanced game.
