Ukraine Today

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It's good to remind the new people that our "glorious" moderators kurzack and orion are both wannabe nazis so the moderation bias in here is just SLIGHTLY biased. And I'm not saying that in the sense that "muh freedom of speech" but rather in the sense that both of them have spent a decade or two coming up with defences for Putin and his lackeys - whether it's Orban or Trump, and get horny for the thought of becoming SS-Grüppenführers.
You must have me confused with someone else. Are you posting while hammered again?
 
It's good to remind the new people that our "glorious" moderators kurzack and orion are both wannabe nazis so the moderation bias in here is just SLIGHTLY biased. And I'm not saying that in the sense that "muh freedom of speech" but rather in the sense that both of them have spent a decade or two coming up with defences for Putin and his lackeys - whether it's Orban or Trump, and get horny for the thought of becoming SS-Grüppenführers.
Yeah, Orion is moderate left, it's Kurczak's head you want. Because Chechia is not invaded, she is fair game and doesn't enjoy special protections against criticism for defending neo-Nazis. If she suddenly decides to defend neo-Nazis.
And as much fun as I've had with Madvader over the years, and how difficult it is to believe that the hill he chose to die on is paedophilia, in this thread he's basically saying that Russia's war crimes are A-OKAY because some of the thousands of people serving in the Azov battalion between 2014 and 2022 were actual nazis, so they all lost their human rights. That's not how anything works.
Not only pedophilia, also racism, when I objected to some black people in a game. I'm a ****ing racist, Jhessail.
And by not letting the neo-Nazi Azov thing slide, I'm obviously pro-Putin, pro-Russia and pro-vodka. What kind of person would do all that??? Well, me.
 
Yeah, Orion is moderate left
By my country's standards I'm a liberal extremist, but that's because I want us to catch up to the rest of Western society with their socialized healthcare, national labor regulations, not giving corporations the same level of political access as actual human beings, and education.


What kind of person would do all that??? Well, me.
Truly you are the worst kind of person! :iamamoron:
 
It's good to remind the new people that our "glorious" moderators kurzack and orion are both wannabe nazis so the moderation bias in here is just SLIGHTLY biased. And I'm not saying that in the sense that "muh freedom of speech" but rather in the sense that both of them have spent a decade or two coming up with defences for Putin and his lackeys - whether it's Orban or Trump, and get horny for the thought of becoming SS-Grüppenführers.

And as much fun as I've had with Madvader over the years, and how difficult it is to believe that the hill he chose to die on is paedophilia, in this thread he's basically saying that Russia's war crimes are A-OKAY because some of the thousands of people serving in the Azov battalion between 2014 and 2022 were actual nazis, so they all lost their human rights. That's not how anything works.

Also, Weaver, I know we've butted heads before when it came to feminism and other things, and I'm sure we would do so in the future again, but Finland stands with Ukraine 100% because we know exactly what you're going through. Once Putin is dead and the Z-orcs have been vanquished, we can go back to debate about skirt lengths vis-a-vis cat-calls and other stuff that civilized people politely discuss. Meanwhile, stay alive.
I don't remember kurczak having a romance with Putin or Orban. And really you shouldn't lump them together. And why is Trump and nazism in that association chain again.
That's like what Russian establishment does by lumping together "the collective West", liberalism, homosexuality and nazism in a single complex meme.
This makes me think that maybe I should myself stop saying that Putin is literally Hitler because it leads nowhere. Or maybe it takes the conversation to a battle of memes blurring the reality. Every beast is his own kind of beast and differences, in the end, are more telling than similarities.

I don't think we will ever get back to our conversations about feminism. Time passes, people change. I've reconciled many issues I had with this culture and married a feminist. You probably also became less borderline in your views with age. So who knows where we will now find ourselves on that front.

Thanks for the kind words and well wishes, they mean a lot to me.
 
Putin or Orban. And really you shouldn't lump them together. And why is Trump and nazism in that association chain again.
Authoritarian, nationalist, anti-democratic, ultra-conservative. The pattern is not hard to see unless you want to hide it from yourself because you hate some and admire others. Both Orban and Trump (they were both at CPAC recently) admire Putin, and they are in turn models for lesser types like Bolsonaro.
That's like what Russian establishment does by lumping together "the collective West", liberalism, homosexuality and nazism in a single complex meme.
You can't confuse this with the Russian propaganda who uses nazism incorrectly (unless it's literally about neo-Nazis), and really objects to liberalism and inclusivity.
 
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That's obvious advice when reacting to a troll. But it's obvious also that an efficient troll will find your weak spot and strike at an opportune time.
I have not been as terrified and angry in my entire life. And this putinoid narrative really adds insult to injury.
Yesterday I've learned of more "Buchas" uncovered in freed settlements of Kharkiv region. More people executed, women and small children raped. I wish I could pretend it's governmental propaganda. But unfortunately, due to my professional ties, I know for a fact that this is true and it happens en masse. It makes me stay awake at night.
Yeah, I read about some of that last night. It's so maddening and depressing. Thousands of lives lost, ruined, or scarred for no good reason. This war should never have happened.

On a different note, what do people here make of the situation with Sweden and Finland trying to join NATO? Will Turkey come around eventually, or is it going to fail unless someone assassinates Erdogan in the next few weeks?
 
Ideally Turkey should be expelled from NATO, but that's a very unlikely scenario and would weaken NATO and move Turkey closer to nearby autocratic countries.
My guess is Turkey is hoping for some negotiations. For example to make null the arms exports embargo from the two countries. Or just a "bag of money".
It's unlikely Sweden or Finland will designate PKK as terrorists, which I suppose is Erdogan's condition.

 
I don't think Turkey needs NATO's help to move closer to autocracies, what with the illegal oil trade with ISIS that Erdogan's government may or may not have given the wink and nod to, the various arms deals with Russia and the general poor human rights record and widespread genocide denial. That many Russian oligarchs have fled to Turkey is, I think, no coincidence. Their continued membership in the alliance is shameful, and has been so since the 70s. Turkey is, following the Cold War, strategically worthless for NATO and we are better off without them at this point.
 
Will Turkey come around eventually
Yes. They played silly games buying S-400s from Russia after they were told many times not to, and they were removed from the F-35 procurement plan as a result. They also act against other NATO member interests in the region (e.g. cooperating with Russia in Syria). Turkey has spent the last decade or so openly trying to play both sides, but recent events show that the two sides they're playing aren't equal. They've seen for themselves now how capable Russia is(n't) in pursuing their goals against nations with NATO materiel support, and it wouldn't take a genius to follow on to the logical conclusion that Russia would have an even worse time against a NATO member. If Russia decided to throw that particular party, all of NATO would come, not just our weapons and equipment. Politically, Turkey may want to keep being a hassle for other NATO members, but strategically it is quite clear that independently warming up to Russia isn't valuable.

There's some speculation that they're just creating a fuss as a show to get some kind of concession, like being brought back into the F-35 program or what Adorno mentioned.
 
I guess I'm just wondering how obstinate they're going to be in order to stay buddy-buddies with Putin. Unfortunately, they seem to have the power to scuttle this whole deal, and I wouldn't be surprised if they use it in order to show their support for Russia. But, what do I know.
 
Yes. They played silly games buying S-400s from Russia after they were told many times not to, and they were removed from the F-35 procurement plan as a result. They also act against other NATO member interests in the region (e.g. cooperating with Russia in Syria). Turkey has spent the last decade or so openly trying to play both sides,
This is so American-centric viewpoint which insists on purely American interests and does nothing for the complex situation in which Turkey finds itself, Erdogan or not. It has to play with Russia if it wants to pursue its own objectives in Syria etc.
There's some speculation that they're just creating a fuss as a show to get some kind of concession, like being brought back into the F-35 program or what Adorno mentioned.
Exactly, they would want something unrelated and will get it, because if we learned anything about veto powers (in the EU) is that vetos need to be monetized. Which is why vetos need to be phased out with qualified majority in any club with Europe-sized number of members.
The same approach was attempted by the Croatian president in exchange for enhancing Croatian interests in Bosnia, although the Croatian PM said no.
 
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It's unlikely Sweden or Finland will designate PKK as terrorists, which I suppose is Erdogan's condition.
Why not? Seems like a tiny price to pay for national security. If that's all he wants, just play him. Say yes, designate them as terrorists, join NATO, zero enforcement, play dumb.
 
Why not? Seems like a tiny price to pay for national security. If that's all he wants, just play him. Say yes, designate them as terrorists, join NATO, zero enforcement, play dumb.
Well, the PKK is a terrorist organization to most of the western world (and they are pretty terrible). So it would be a simple step.
But the political environment in those countries is just not there (left leaning governments). There could be quite a big uproar if Sweden/Finland just gave in to Erdogan's demands. Both from the general public and internally among party members.
To be honest I'm not sure what the status is for PKK in Sweden/Finland, but they're not actively hunting down members, and generally don't seem too interested in monitoring the organization.
 
I get the overall sympathies. It's just surprising to me that it is such a no-no to them that they would for example rather lift the arms embargo than just say "PKK bad" ad then to do nothing of substance.
 
Erdogan is not Putin's friend. I am not sure why people still believe that he is. He is Putin wannabe which means his existential task is to surpass and defeat his teacher.
Erdogan's goal could be to replace Russia both as the main regional power in Turkey's backyard (Caucasus, Syria) and as the main opponent/partner of China in turkic Central Asia. His very close involvement in this war as a benevolent but impartial mediator is indicative of his aiming at this geopolitical shift without open conflict. Other NATO countries may be in favour of this because if Turkey remains amiable to Russia on the surface there is a chance that weakened and marginalized Russia will be able to recognize it as a new regional leader in the future.
By this logic Erdogan's objections to NATO expansion could be aimed at showing Putin that Turkey is not entirely one of "those guys". That it is not a part of the "collective West". Essentially, a "good cop" in that equation.
I think Turkey is underestimated by many. It is a very powerful country with a very ambitious dictator who was biding his time to break the status quo for a while. This war could be his lucky lottery ticket.
Expelling Turkey from NATO is a terrible idea, I am sure no one actually considers it. Moreover, I suspect some people in Washington are very disappointed right now that Clinton plainly snubbed Putin when he inquired if Russia could ever join NATO back in 2000.
 
This is so American-centric viewpoint which insists on purely American interests and does nothing for the complex situation in which Turkey finds itself, Erdogan or not. It has to play with Russia if it wants to pursue its own objectives in Syria etc.
The invasion of Ukraine is the first time in my life that NATO hasn't just been bullied into doing whatever the US wanted it to do, so while it certainly is an American-centric viewpoint it does happen to jive with how NATO has been running for decades. I agree that he's been cooperating with Russia for Turkey's own interests in the region, which Weaver has also elaborated on a bit more, but I think some of the complexity is of Turkey's own making.
 
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